John Darby

[Randy Kluth]

No such thing as 'Replacement Theology'. That is an idea that originates from the orthodox unbelieving Jews.

The Old Testament Patriarchs believed what God said about sending His people The Messiah. The New Testament is the 'evidence' that God kept His Promise on that. Messiah has already come, and His name is Jesus of Nazareth, The Christ, The Son of God.

The ten scattered tribes of the northern "kingdom of Israel" never returned to the holy land as a people. Even Jewish scholars well know that only a small remnant of the northern tribes left Jeroboam's gold calf idol worship and sided with the tribes of Judah and Benjamin in the southern "kingdom of Judah", and that the majority of the northern tribes never returned. So if you're Jewish, you are arguing against your own Jewish scholars.

Yes, there is such a thing as Replacement Theology. It is the disbelief in God's promise to Abraham that He would save, for all time, the biological nation he would produce. The Law did bring a "divorce," of sorts, between God and Israel. Those who abandoned true temple worship for other gods, such as in Ephraim and in Dan, were divorced, went into Captivity, and then were essentially lost.

But many from all the tribes of Israel joined with the Southern Kingdom of Judah to worship at the temple. And so, the promise for all Israel remained alive. When Judah also failed to remain true to God, as a nation, they also went into Captivity. But they were given to return, and many did. The hope of Israel remained alive.

When Jesus came, Israel once again failed, as all nations are susceptible to doing. And captivity happened once again under the Romans. And while punishment against Israel, generally, has continued throughout the NT age, there has always been a remnant of converted Jews who present the future Hope of Israel.

Replacement Theology is wrong. Jewish Israel had not be replaced, as God's People, by the international Church. Rather, the international Church has joined the surviving Christian remnant of Israel as God's People. But the Hope of a complete restoration of Israel as a nation remains. No replacement--just the addition of many nations to Israel at the return of Christ.

 

[farouk]

Should suffice for what? You posed that John 14:1-3 was Jesus himself teaching a Pre-trib Rapture. However, when we look at the text in context, Jesus is speaking to his Disciples about his 'going away' and their inability to follow him...just yet. That is what he is telling them 'not to be troubled about'.
And you are correct that it doesn't mention, or connect his return to the Tribulation; Pre or Post. Not here. There are other texts that speak of this. But not here. Incidentally, Matt 24:29-31, Mk 13:24-27 tells us that it is after the Tribulation. One doesn't need 'ears to hear' that, it says it most clearly.
So again, I wonder how your original claim holds any validity at all.

@Naomi25 Well, for some of us John 14.3 is pretty clear!

 

[farouk]

But can you hang the legitimacy of the Pre-trib Rapture on a single passage alone? Especially this passage?

In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. -John 14:2–3

It seems to me that this passage does not indicate timing, thus Pre-trib Rapture at all. What it teaches absolutely is that Christ is assuring us that he is preparing a place for those who belong to him, and that he will come again so we may be with him. Presumably 'in that place' he has prepared for us, although it only specifically says that we shall be 'where he is'. An argument can be made that 'the place' being prepared is the New Jerusalem, which we know 'comes down out of heaven'.
The point: John 14 doesn't say that Jesus is coming Pre-tribulation, or that he is taking his church 'back to heaven'. It only states that he is preparing a place for us, and that when he comes, we shall be gathered to him and be forever with him.
In other words...Pre-trib it does not teach. And, I'm sorry, but, as you know, I question whether you can find a single other verse that supports a Pre-trib Rapture anywhere else either. I am, of course, most pleased to discuss it with you.

@Naomi25 1 Cor. 11.26 and 1 Thess. 4.13-18 as well...

 

[n2thelight]

The passage in Jer 31 will be fulfilled at the return of Jesus Christ. They will all believe because they will see His appearing. Then Jesus will fill all the nation of Israel with His Spirit. That will save them.

Without belief in Him now,that ain't happening.I mean for real are you listening to what you are saying.

The whole dang on world will believe upon Him at His return,and every knee shall bow.

So will the whole world be saved or just the Jew's whom you think are Israel

John 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me."

Did the above say except for Israel?

 

[Truther]

Without belief in Him now,that ain't happening.I mean for real are you listening to what you are saying.

The whole dang on world will believe upon Him at His return,and every knee shall bow.

So will the whole world be saved or just the Jew's whom you think are Israel

John 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me."

Did the above say except for Israel?

I see now, you saved yourself like the future Jews need to do.

Or, did Jesus find you wallering in sin like they are?

 

[n2thelight]

I see now, you saved yourself like the future Jews need to do.

Or, did Jesus find you wallering in sin like they are?

Not understanding what you saying,I was saved by believing in Christ!!!So may I ask what on earth do you mean, I saved myself?

By faith in Christ was I saved before His return.At His return at the 7th and last trump,it's to late ,from that point on until the end of His,the Lords Day you shall be considered the dead,meaning you can die the 2nd death

 

[Randy Kluth]

Without belief in Him now,that ain't happening.I mean for real are you listening to what you are saying.

The whole dang on world will believe upon Him at His return,and every knee shall bow.

So will the whole world be saved or just the Jew's whom you think are Israel

John 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me."

Did the above say except for Israel?

No, Truther is right. Israel will, as a nation, get saved. Some people think nations don't change...ever. But they do. Some nations are bad and then repent. And some nations that have been Christian backslide. These things are facts of history.

Can entire nations turn to Christianity? Yes. It's happened. Why can't Israel experience a national revival while other nations don't? I don't think it will mean automatic spirituality across the nations just because Jesus comes back. There will be peace settling upon the world, but it doesn't mean nations automatically become spiritual.

But Israel will become spiritual at Jesus' return. And I think there will be a good many other nations to acquire spirituality at that time, as well.

 

[Naomi25]

@Naomi25 Well, for some of us John 14.3 is pretty clear!

Well, I'm pleased you are, I suppose. But I must, myself, question how 'clear' John 14:1-3 can be on a "Pret-trib" teaching when it doesn't mention the tribulation at all, the timing involved, or even the specific location that we shall join Christ at, apart from his person.
I would submit that proper biblical exegesis would call for this verse to be support for something, not proof of it. And I don't know that I've seen convincing 'other proof' for this passage to support.

 

[Truther]

Not understanding what you saying,I was saved by believing in Christ!!!So may I ask what on earth do you mean, I saved myself?

By faith in Christ was I saved before His return.At His return at the 7th and last trump,it's to late ,from that point on until the end of His,the Lords Day you shall be considered the dead,meaning you can die the 2nd death

Okay, I will elaborate.

You did not exclude yourself from salvation as a former sinner, but you say the sinner Jews in Israel cannot be saved at the return of Christ.

Why?

 

[Taken]

We all know that John Darby came up with the pre-tribulation rapture.

Nope didn't know that.

But did you know that Darby also

Invented electricity,
Wrote the consitution,
Came up with the theory of relativity,
The law of gravity
And the recipe for maple syrup.

In fact, if we look further back in history you will see that John Darby probably discovered fire and invented the wheel too.

Nope don't know that to be true.

 

[Truther]

Nope didn't know that.



Nope don't know that to be true.

Jesus came up with pre trib rapture in Matt 24...


36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.


And Paul elaborated on Jesus' pre trib rapture in 1 Thes 4 and 5....


13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

5 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

 

[Taken]

Jesus came up with pre trib rapture in Matt 24...


36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.


And Paul elaborated on Jesus' pre trib rapture in 1 Thes 4 and 5....


13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

5 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

Yes. I believe in Rapture, of those IN Christ, as Scripture reveals, before Trib.
Didn't know about Darby, still don't know much, but seems he studied Scripture.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Truther]

Yes. I believe in Rapture, of those IN Christ, as Scripture reveals, before Trib.
Didn't know about Darby, still don't know much, but seems he studied Scripture.

Glory to God,
Taken

The OP is obsessed with Darby, but he did not create the pre-trib, only expounded on it. I have never read his stuff, only the Bible.

 

[Taken]

Okay, I will elaborate.

You did not exclude yourself from salvation as a former sinner, but you say the sinner Jews in Israel cannot be saved at the return of Christ.

Why?

If you believe Jesus Christ is God-
And God is omnipresent-

Ponder-
It is the Lord-
WHO descends from Heaven To the Clouds, catches up His Church, in the air...

It is the Lamb in Heaven opening the SEALS, exacting His Wrath.

It is A Lamb that is with the 144,000 on MT Zion (sion) on Earth, during an early-mid portion of the Trib.

It is (not Christ that Returns to Earth).
It is the Son of man (with power), that Returns to Earth.

The Son of man has to be who return, because it was The Son of man...men can SEE.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

The OP is obsessed with Darby, but he did not create the pre-trib, only expounded on it. I have never read his stuff, only the Bible.

* NOT Appointed to Wrath
The opening of the SEALS...Begins the "Wrath of the Lamb"

Why would th Lamb be subjecting His Faithful to Him to His Anger displayed by Wrath.?
He wouldn't.

Also...the End Trib has comparable values to the Wrath of God, bringing the Trib of the Flood.

Matt 24:
[37] But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Ya, the people were carrying as usual...
But it is the comparison of the Saving...
Noah was Saved by...
Some special mark or seal? No
They were saved by a big boat? No

Their saving was via being lifted up above the destruction that was happening ON the Face of the Earth.

Gen 7:
[18] And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.


Gen 6:
[7] And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Truther]

* NOT Appointed to Wrath
The opening of the SEALS...Begins the "Wrath of the Lamb"

Why would th Lamb be subjecting His Faithful to Him to His Anger displayed by Wrath.?
He wouldn't.

Also...the End Trib has comparable values to the Wrath of God, bringing the Trib of the Flood.

Matt 24:
[37] But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Ya, the people were carrying as usual...
But it is the comparison of the Saving...
Noah was Saved by...
Some special mark or seal? No
They were saved by a big boat? No

Their saving was via being lifted up above the destruction that was happening ON the Face of the Earth.

Gen 7:
[18] And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.


Gen 6:
[7] And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Glory to God,
Taken

Amen

 

[Taken]

But Israel will become spiritual at Jesus' return.

Before His Return, during Trib

 

[Randy Kluth]

Before His Return, during Trib

I'm not an advocate of the idea that divine chastisement of Israel during the present age will bring about a national revival. But yes, there is an increasing interest in a remnant in Israel in Jesus, the Messiah. They will set the pace for the future salvation of national Israel *at* the Coming of Christ.

 

[Taken]

I'm not an advocate of the idea that divine chastisement of Israel during the present age will bring about a national revival. But yes, there is an increasing interest in a remnant in Israel in Jesus, the Messiah. They will set the pace for the future salvation of national Israel *at* the Coming of Christ.

I wasn't saying in this age, but during the early and mid stages of the Trib they (ISRAEL) begin accepting Jesus as their Christ Messiah.
(The very purpose for the Two witnesses and 144,000, Preaching to Israel.)

Christ isn't coming...The Son of man is who shall return....and not in Trib.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Truther]

Before His Return, during Trib

Rather, at the end of the trib when they see him physically.