"Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Faith" - Has 500 Years Taught Us Nothing?

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brakelite

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Finally – you have YET to substantiate your filthy LIE that the Early Church was “praying for” the extension of Roman Paganism. What a bizarre claim to make.
What are you looking for? A Vatican authenticated document from the, 5th century? Or should I apply for imprimatur prior to my posting here?
 

BreadOfLife

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What are you looking for? A Vatican authenticated document from the, 5th century? Or should I apply for imprimatur prior to my posting here?
HISTORICAL DOCUMENTATION and not just a rant pasted from an anti-Catholic author.

SURELY, you must have some proof for this idiotic claim . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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I am unsure what you mean by that. Can you clarify your meaning of 'Catholic' in the context of your statement, (that is denomination or description) ... And could you also clarify what you mean by 'church'? For example, are you saying that the Catholic church based in Rome was the only independent Christian body of believers?
In 538 AD, the Catholic Church was the ONLY Christian Church.
There have always been small heretical groups that have grown out of that ONE Church.

From the writings of the EARLY 2nd century – we see that the Church established by Christ and spread by the Apostles was already being called “The Catholic Church”NOT as a mere description – but as a TITLE.

In an age with NO internet, NO TV, NO Radio and virtually NO Postal Service – it took YEARS to spread the news and YEARS for the name to catch on. St. Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch wrote about “The Catholic Church” at the BEGINNING of the 2nd Century as if his readers knew FULL WELL what he was talking about.

Later, in that same century, we read about “The Catholic Church” – again as a TITLE in the “Martyrdom of Polycarp”, as well as a list of Popes beginning with Peter in Irenaeus’s “Against Heresies”.

By 538 AD, the Catholic Church already had MANY Councils and Synods that had dealt with a great MANY things including the Canon of Scripture, the Hypostatic Union, the Trinity, and heresies like Gnosticism, Arianism, Nestorianism, Montanism, Pelagianism, Manichaeism, etc.

Regardless of what you’ve been spoon-fed at your anti-Catholic meetings - there was only ONE Christian entity in 538 – the Catholic Church.

I suggest you take some time off and do an intensive study of history . . .
 
B

brakelite

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In 538 AD, the Catholic Church was the ONLY Christian Church.
There have always been small heretical groups that have grown out of that ONE Church.

From the writings of the EARLY 2nd century – we see that the Church established by Christ and spread by the Apostles was already being called “The Catholic Church”NOT as a mere description – but as a TITLE.

In an age with NO internet, NO TV, NO Radio and virtually NO Postal Service – it took YEARS to spread the news and YEARS for the name to catch on. St. Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch wrote about “The Catholic Church” at the BEGINNING of the 2nd Century as if his readers knew FULL WELL what he was talking about.

Later, in that same century, we read about “The Catholic Church” – again as a TITLE in the “Martyrdom of Polycarp”, as well as a list of Popes beginning with Peter in Irenaeus’s “Against Heresies”.

By 538 AD, the Catholic Church already had MANY Councils and Synods that had dealt with a great MANY things including the Canon of Scripture, the Hypostatic Union, the Trinity, and heresies like Gnosticism, Arianism, Nestorianism, Montanism, Pelagianism, Manichaeism, etc.

Regardless of what you’ve been spoon-fed at your anti-Catholic meetings - there was only ONE Christian entity in 538 – the Catholic Church.

I suggest you take some time off and do an intensive study of history . . .
Perhaps then you would care to explain how the first Catholic missionary to great Britain, Augustine, found the Christian church already firmly established? That when he and his followers demanded the Celtic church to submit to Rome, they politely refused? At which point wsr broke out and Christian schools, such as at Bangor in Wales, were wiped out by secular King who had Rome's blessing?
 
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BreadOfLife

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Perhaps then you would care to explain how the first Catholic missionary to great Britain, Augustine, found the Christian church already firmly established? That when he and his followers demanded the Celtic church to submit to Rome, they politely refused? At which point we broke out and Christian schools, such as at Bangkor in Wales, were wiped out by secular King who had Rome's blessing?
Christianity found its way to Britain just like EVERYTHING else from Rome. There were Druids and other pagan sects that came from Rome to Britain. Christians went to Britain as early as the THIRD century.

HOWEVER – as we read in Scripture – TRUE Christianity must be Apostolic (Episkopal). There were no Bishops in Britain nor was there even a Canon of Scripture in the 3rd century – so HOW would a Christian sect govern itself and WHO or WHAT would be their Authority?? Pope Gregory the Great finally established a link to the legitimate Church in 597 through his missionary Augustine of Canterbury.

In any case – this sect of Christians in Britain was originally PART of the Catholic Church that broke away like any other sect of schismatics in the Early Church, Einstein. They were eventually assimilated back into the Church.
 
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brakelite

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Christianity found its way to Britain just like EVERYTHING else from Rome. There were Druids and other pagan sects that came from Rome to Britain. Christians went to Britain as early as the THIRD century.

HOWEVER – as we read in Scripture – TRUE Christianity must be Apostolic (Episkopal). There were no Bishops in Britain nor was there even a Canon of Scripture in the 3rd century – so HOW would a Christian sect govern itself and WHO or WHAT would be their Authority?? Pope Gregory the Great finally established a link to the legitimate Church in 597 through his missionary Augustine of Canterbury.

In any case – this sect of Christians in Britain was originally PART of the Catholic Church that broke away like any other sect of schismatics in the Early Church, Einstein. They were eventually assimilated back into the Church.
Do you truly believe that such shallow twisting of history will convince me? You underestimate me BoL. Are you seriously suggesting that Saint Patrick was a schismatic and the church he established sect? How can such a primitive church which had no dealings ever with Rome, depart from Rome? What of such missionaries such as Dinooth...Aiden...Columba...Columbanus?
What of the schools they established a long time before Augustine appeared. Their roots were in the apostles. Not Rome. And I think you know this but are afraid to admit it for it would mean a rethink on the history of the Celtic church and a rethink on predumed papal authority.
 
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Phoneman777

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ONCE again, Phoney - you illustrate your ignorance on the subject because you see everything in Black and White.
You are an extremist, who doesn't understand that life is full of gray areas. You HAVE been schooled - but you're just too full of yourself to admit it.

I'm not "unwilling" to accept the teachings of the Catholic Church because the Church has NEVER taught TOTAL Preterism. Oh, and by the way - the Church doesn't teach that the Antichrist already came. It simply posits this as a possibility.

YOUR inability to grasp the varying degrees of Preterism is at the core of your deep confusion . . .
If you continue to deny Catholic doctrine, I'm going to report you to the Papal "Congregation for the Doctrine and Faith" formerly known as "The Office of the Inquisition" (it's still in the same disgusting building where so many had been previously tortured before being handed over to the state for execution). I'm sure you are well aware of how the Inquisitors deal with heretics who deny Catholic doctrine.
 

Phoneman777

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@BreadOfLife is an "emotionally unstable sociopathic individual who lacks self control"????? I find it FASCINATING that you are able to make that diagnosis by reading peoples words? From which University did you get your degree to diagnose him without even meeting him? You truly have a gift. ;)
The University of Common Sense...where you can get a copy of the DSM and read about it yourself.
How can you say "Not approved by me, but by God" when YOU are the one passing judgment on us
I'm wondering what has led you to believe that exposing "the unfruitful works of darkness" that is the teachings/practices of Catholic leadership somehow is a judgment against the masses of Catholic faithful, who in my estimation are simply regular people who've been victimized and propagandized into a system of religious hopelessness. When will you who hurl "Catholic bashing" accusations realize that if we Protestants truly hated Catholics, we'd cease from trying to help you escape Catholicism and just sit back and watch you suffer?
...Catholics and the daughters of Babylon telling US everything we believe is wrong (anti-Biblical)?
Firstly, it is not "Catholics" which the Bible refers to as "Antichrist", it is the papacy - the organization which, by it's own word of confession and mission, claims to be just that ("Anti-christ" means "take the place of Christ" which is what the papacy boldly claims to the world). Secondly, "Catholics" are not the "daughter of Babylon" - that refers to the leadership of the apostate Protestantism which is falling all over itself to join in with the papacy and drag their masses who have been victimized and propagandized as abusively as our fellow Catholics have been as well.
YOU have determined the Pope is the anti-Christ????
No, the Bible has determined the papacy is the Antichrist.
Soooo let me get this straight: Any Church that has any belief that mirrors Catholic belief they are a daughter of the whore of Babylon???
Yes. The good news is that our merciful God has a message for His people who are trapped in the Whore of Babylon or in one of the Daughters of Babylon - "Come out of her, MY PEOPLE, that you be not partakers of her sins and receive not of her plagues." I'm simply a humble mailman delivering the message.
 
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Phoneman777

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EASY.
Because Christ's Catholic Church is NOT Antichrist. Te Church is the BODY of Christ.

Jesus equated His very SELF with His Church (Acts 9:4-5).
St. Paul called the Church the FULLNESS of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23).

So, you see - the Church cannot be Antichrist - or Jesus is a LIAR (Matt. 16:18) . . .
Once again, Dead Bread, you deny your church's teaching.

Does not "Antichrist" mean "take the place of Christ"? Yes, we all know that.

Does not the papacy claim to "take the place of Christ"? Of course, she makes that her boast.

Does not the Bible contain predictions that a system would arise and hijack Christianity and claim to "take the place of Christ" along with many other identifying marks which can easily be shown to be the papacy for all to see? Yes, as easily as a lion can spot a limp.
 
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Marymog

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The University of Common Sense...where you can get a copy of the DSM and read about it yourself.
I'm wondering what has led you to believe that exposing "the unfruitful works of darkness" that is the teachings/practices of Catholic leadership somehow is a judgment against the masses of Catholic faithful, who in my estimation are simply regular people who've been victimized and propagandized into a system of religious hopelessness. When will you who hurl "Catholic bashing" accusations realize that if we Protestants truly hated Catholics, we'd cease from trying to help you escape Catholicism and just sit back and watch you suffer?
Firstly, it is not "Catholics" which the Bible refers to as "Antichrist", it is the papacy - the organization which, by it's own word of confession and mission, claims to be just that ("Anti-christ" means "take the place of Christ" which is what the papacy boldly claims to the world). Secondly, "Catholics" are not the "daughter of Babylon" - that refers to the leadership of the apostate Protestantism which is falling all over itself to join in with the papacy and drag their masses who have been victimized and propagandized as abusively as our fellow Catholics have been as well.
No, the Bible has determined the papacy is the Antichrist.
Yes. The good news is that our merciful God has a message for His people who are trapped in the Whore of Babylon or in one of the Daughters of Babylon - "Come out of her, MY PEOPLE, that you be not partakers of her sins and receive not of her plagues." I'm simply a humble mailman delivering the message.
You crack me up Phoney man. My prayers are with you.

Mary
 

BreadOfLife

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Once again, Dead Bread, you deny your church's teaching.

Does not "Antichrist" mean "take the place of Christ"? Yes, we all know that.

Does not the papacy claim to "take the place of Christ"? Of course, she makes that her boast.

Does not the Bible contain predictions that a system would arise and hijack Christianity and claim to "take the place of Christ" along with many other identifying marks which can easily be shown to be the papacy for all to see? Yes, as easily as a lion can spot a limp.
ONE more time, Einstein . . .

It was JESUS who equated His Church with Himself in Acts:
Acts 9:4-5
He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?”

He said, “Who are you, sir?” The reply came, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting."

Saul was persecuting the Church, yet Jesus stated emphatically that Saul was persecuting HIM directly.

Paul tells us in Eph. 1:22-23 that the Church is the FULLNESS of Christ.
So, Einstein - NOBODY is "TAKING" the place of Christ. HE assigned His Church as His very BODY on earth.

LEARN what the Bible says before you go around perverting it . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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If you continue to deny Catholic doctrine, I'm going to report you to the Papal "Congregation for the Doctrine and Faith" formerly known as "The Office of the Inquisition" (it's still in the same disgusting building where so many had been previously tortured before being handed over to the state for execution). I'm sure you are well aware of how the Inquisitors deal with heretics who deny Catholic doctrine.
You keep making this idiotic charge - but you can't seem to specify WHICH doctrine I am supposedly "denying", Einstein.
Care to take a stab at it - or is that too complicated for you?
 

BreadOfLife

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Do you truly believe that such shallow twisting of history will convince me? You underestimate me BoL. Are you seriously suggesting that Saint Patrick was a schismatic and the church he established sect? How can such a primitive church which had no dealings ever with Rome, depart from Rome? What of such missionaries such as Dinooth...Aiden...Columba...Columbanus?
What of the schools they established a long time before Augustine appeared. Their roots were in the apostles. Not Rome. And I think you know this but are afraid to admit it for it would mean a rethink on the history of the Celtic church and a rethink on predumed papal authority.
Ummmm, St. Patrick was SENT to Ireland by Pope St. Celestine I.
I know that historically-bankrupt anti-Catholics like yourself like to paint a picture pof Patrick asa a "lone maverick" who spread the Gospel on his own - but he was sent by "ROME". STUDY your history . . .

As for your statement in RED - it illustrates you complete ignorance. You anti-Catholics like to toss out the term "Rome" as if it has nothing to do with the Apostles. the Early Church Fathers totally reject that kind of stupidity . . .

Ignatius of Antioch

You [the See of ROME] have envied no one, but others have you taught. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force (Epistle to the Romans 3:1 [A.D. 110]).

Irenaeus
by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at ROME by the two most glorious apostles. Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church (ROME), because of its superior origin, ALL THE CHURCHES MUST AGREE, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [inter A.D. 180-190]).

Clement of Alexandria
The blessed Peter, the chosen, the preeminent, the first among the disciples, for whom alone with himself the Savior paid the tribute [Matt. 17:27], quickly grasped and understood their meaning. And what does he say? "Behold, we have left all and have followed you" [Matt. 19:2 7, Mark 10:28] (Who is the Rich Man That is Saved? 21:3-5 [A.D. 200]).

Tertullian
The Lord said to Peter, "On this rock I will build my Church, I have given you the keys of the kingdom of heaven [and] whatever you shall have bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven" [Matt. 16:18-19]. ... Upon YOU, he says, I will build my Church; and I will give to YOU the keys, not to the Church; and whatever YOU shall have bound or YOU shall have loosed, not what they shall have bound or they shall have loosed (Modesty 21:9-10 [A.D. 220]).

Cyprian
With a false bishop appointed for themselves by heretics, they dare even to set sail and carry letters from schismatics and blasphemers to the Chair of Peter and to the principal church [at ROME], in which sacerdotal unity has its source" (Epistle to Cornelius [Bishop of ROME] 59:14 [A.D. 252]).

If someone does not hold fast to this UNITY OF PETER, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he should desert THE CHAIR POF PETER upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church? (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4 [A.D. 251]).

Optatus
In the city of ROME the Episcopal chair was given first to Peter, the chair in which Peter sat, the same who was HEAD — that is why he is also called Cephas — of all the apostles, the ONE CHAIR in which unity is maintained by all. Neither do the apostles proceed individually on their own, and anyone who would presume to set up another chair in opposition to that single chair would, by that very fact, be a schismatic and a sinner. . . . Recall, then, the origins of YOUR chair, those of you who wish to claim for yourselves the title of holy Church" (The Schism of the Donatists 2:2 [circa A.D. 367]).
 
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brakelite

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Ummmm, St. Patrick was SENT to Ireland by Pope St. Celestine I.
Patrick was taken as a slave in his youth. He lived in Scotland with his parents, his father being a Christian...a long time before any emissary from Rome set foot in Britain.

STUDY your history . .
Studying history is the very last thing you want anyone to do. What you really want is for us to believe the myths and fairytales made up by frauds such as those who wrote the donation of Constantine, and who used such frauds to empower the Roman bishop. Lies, politics, and wars were the only method known to the RCC by which to spread their fraudulent gospel. Would you like me to go into detail as to how Augustine manipulated pagan kings in Britain to make war and decimate the Celtic churches there?
You really think there is no evidence to such realities? You try and paint a pretty picture of Roman history... But the reality as I think you know, is far different. You are the one who needs to study history. Does the name Bangor in Wales ring a bell? What if those other Christian leaders and missionaries I mentioned? Patrick want the only one. Shall I mention the wars between Columbanus and the papacy in Europe after he entered papal territories to outreach the real gospel?
 

Phoneman777

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I am unsure what you mean by that. Can you clarify your meaning of 'Catholic' in the context of your statement, (that is denomination or description) ... And could you also clarify what you mean by 'church'? For example, are you saying that the Catholic church based in Rome was the only independent Christian body of believers?
EXACTLY!!!!! Since when does "the church" become limited to a bunch of esoteric authoritarians in Rome who corrupted Christianity beyond all recognition, to the exclusion of the millions of believers who had to flee from that corruption to the hills, mountains, and caves?

Since when does "the church" exclude anyone who refuses to acknowledge what the Bible does not - that the pope is "king of heaven, earth, and purgatory" - and defiantly declares that the ONLY authority for the Christian in heaven and Earth is Jesus Christ and His Word, and mere mortals, no matter how many fancy fish hats they don, have no more right over the conscience of another than does a husband over the wife or vice-versa???
 
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Phoneman777

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You crack me up Phoney man. My prayers are with you.

Mary
I'm not here to "crack you up" - but to spread the messages of warning to you who are trapped in Babylon by the agents of Satan who operate behind cloaks of "Dignities and Duties of the Priest".
 
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Phoneman777

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ONE more time, Einstein . . .

It was JESUS who equated His Church with Himself in Acts:
Acts 9:4-5
He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?”

He said, “Who are you, sir?” The reply came, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting."

Saul was persecuting the Church, yet Jesus stated emphatically that Saul was persecuting HIM directly.

Paul tells us in Eph. 1:22-23 that the Church is the FULLNESS of Christ.
So, Einstein - NOBODY is "TAKING" the place of Christ. HE assigned His Church as His very BODY on earth.

LEARN what the Bible says before you go around perverting it . . .
You silly, misguided papists who are blind to the workings of Satan in your midst confuse the idea of Christ as the centrality of His church which He desires to have oneness even as He is one with His Father...
...with your supposed papal leadership oneness with His divine position in the Godhead as evidenced by such blasphemous, Satanic, demon-inspired writings as:

“All names which in the Scriptures are applied to Christ, by virtue of which is established that He is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope.” - On the authority of the Councils, book 2, chapter 17..

Does the love of a father to his child make that child equal in every aspect to his father? But, since the only experience with children papist can speak about is how to exploit them sexually and not go to jail, I'll retract that question.

So, genius, based on the damning evidence of your own church's writings above, how do we spell "papacy"? A...N...T...I...C...H...R...I...S...T
Oh, foolish Dead Bread, how long will you deny your own church's claims?
 
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Phoneman777

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You keep making this idiotic charge - but you can't seem to specify WHICH doctrine I am supposedly "denying", Einstein.
Care to take a stab at it - or is that too complicated for you?
What's idiotic is a professed papist who denies the teachings of the papacy.

The papacy boasts that it "takes the place of Christ", does it not?
The word "Antichrist" literally means "takes the place of Christ", does it not?

So, do you agree that the papacy takes the place of Christ or not?
 
B

brakelite

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As for your statement in RED - it illustrates you complete ignorance. You anti-Catholics like to toss out the term "Rome" as if it has nothing to do with the Apostles. the Early Church Fathers totally reject that kind of stupidity . . .
It makes little difference whether the self-appointed successor of Peter rules over ten square miles or ten million square miles. If he rules, he is as verily a king as any other sovereign. Today, he is the emperor of the Vatican empire. He appoints his ambassadors, coins his money, has his own postal service. Yet why should he be made a king any more than the head of any of the Protestant churches? Such a kingship requires a union of church and state. Such a kingdom was especially condemned by Jesus.
Such a kingship is the main criteria identifying Antichrist. Such a union of church and state is the prime evidence of spiritual adultery and Apostasy. The fact that your so called early church fathers countenanced such an arrangement doesn't help your cause. It isn't something you ought to be boasting about.
 

BreadOfLife

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You silly, misguided papists who are blind to the workings of Satan in your midst confuse the idea of Christ as the centrality of His church which He desires to have oneness even as He is one with His Father...
...with your supposed papal leadership oneness with His divine position in the Godhead as evidenced by such blasphemous, Satanic, demon-inspired writings as:

“All names which in the Scriptures are applied to Christ, by virtue of which is established that He is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope.” - On the authority of the Councils, book 2, chapter 17..

Does the love of a father to his child make that child equal in every aspect to his father? But, since the only experience with children papist can speak about is how to exploit them sexually and not go to jail, I'll retract that question.

So, genius, based on the damning evidence of your own church's writings above, how do we spell "papacy"? A...N...T...I...C...H...R...I...S...T
Oh, foolish Dead Bread, how long will you deny your own church's claims?
I LOVE when ignorant anti-Catholics like YOU take these asinine blunders because it give me the distinct opportunity to not only set the record straight – but to give you a well-deserved historical-spanking . . .

Do you have ANY idea WHO made this supposed “quote”?? Do you know what was ACTUALLY said?
Allow me to school you . . .

This claim is attributed to St. Robert Bellarmine:
"This is almost de fide, [necessary to be believed as a dogma of the faith] and is proved first of all from the two preceding points: for if the Pope is the head of the universal Church, even when it is gathered together at one time, and if the universal Church even gathered together at one time has no power by reason of its totality; [1] it follows that the Pope is over the Council, and over the Church, not the other way around. It is proved by the second reason, based in Scripture: for all the names, ascribed to Christ in Scripture, from which it is determined that he is over the Church—those same names are ascribed to the Pontiff.
[2] And first, Christ is the paterfamilias [male head of the household] in his own house, which is the Church. The Pope is the highest steward in the same house, that is, the household head in Christ’s place: Luke 12: 'Who is the faithful and prudent dispenser, whom the Lord has set over his household, etc.'"


Notice the difference in what St. Robert Bellarmine ACTUALLY said?? Do you see the actual CONTEXT of what he was saying?? He never said that the Pope was “God” or that he held ALL of the titles of Christ. He was talking about Jesus being the "high steward" and "shepherd" of the Church and that the pope REPRESENTS the pater-familias and the Good Shepherd, our Lord Jesus. In is in THIS context that the Pope occupies His earthly titles, Einstein.

A little advice for ya: DO YOUR HOMEWORK.
This is getting embarrassing . . .

ALSO - I see you’re still ignorantly throwing that idiotic charge of child molestation at Catholic priests – as if your own Protestant ministers aren’t just as guilty. You NEVER learn . . .

There is More Sexual Abuse in The Protestant Churches Than Catholic

The epidemic of denial about sexual abuse in the evangelical church

The Church’s Abuse Problem: It’s Not Just a Catholic Thing

Sexual Abuse in Protestant Institutions

Billy Graham's Grandson Says Protestants Abuse Kids Just Like Catholics

Elmbrook resignations latest to rock evangelical Christian churches

Protestant Churches Grapple With Growing Sexual Abuse Crisis

Ummmmmm talk about living in DENIAL, Einstein . . .
 
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