Keep Your Eyes on Israel

[Waiting on him]

He will rule? "Isra" means “struggles” or “fights with,” and "El" means "God." Hence "fights with God." He gave this name to Jacob after he spent a night wrestling with Him (Genesis 32:28).

Where is your source for that definition?

God bless you.
Does Terry mean anything to you?

 

[TLHKAJ]

 

[APAK]

Amen!

If there is a new song as spoken about in Rev, what who be the old song WOH? There had to be an old song, right? Blessings..APAK

 

[Waiting on him]

If there is a new song as spoken about in Rev, what who be the old song WOH? There had to be an old song, right? Blessings..APAK

It was there all along, the same song, it’s just there were no ears to hear

 

[theefaith]

Oy Vey!! A bunch of meaningless words of a man...
Quote your scripture....at least.

can only pray for the conversion of the Jews to Christ and His one true church
Thee faith eph 4:5
Gal 4 the Jews are of the bond woman

The Church replaced Israel!
Matt 21:43

Matt 21

21:33 - Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, (God) which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, (Israel) and went into a far country:

21:34 - And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, (prophets) that they might receive the fruits of it.

21:35 - And the husbandmen (Jews) took his servants, (prophets) and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.

21:36 - Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.

21:37 - But last of all he sent unto them his son, (Jesus) saying, They will reverence my son.

21:38 - But when the husbandmen (Jews) saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.

21:39 - And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
(Crucifixion of Christ)

21:40 - When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?

21:41 - They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

21:42 - Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

21:43 - Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. (The new covenant church)

21:44 - And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. (The Jews)

21:45 - And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

 

[APAK]

It was there all along, the same song, it’s just there were no ears to hear

Well that could be true, although John could have been trying to contrast the OT saints and the NT saints faith and hope of their future salvation and into the two promised 'lands;' one physical (physical Israel) and one beyond the physical (spiritual Israel). The symbolic 'song' could actually mean the real hopes of the people as cherished personal thoughts, sung or murmured privately in many varieties of songs of hope and praise including the words of God and later including the gospel, the good permanent news for salvation. If this is the case, then the old song(s) began before and after the people came out of bondage in Egypt and into their promised land. The old song(s) was temporary. The new song is about the New Jerusalem, the final destination place of all saints, the final promised 'land.'

Psalms 98:1
A psalm. Sing to the LORD a new song, for he has done marvelous things; his right hand and his holy arm have worked salvation for him.

Revelation 5:9
And they sang a new song: "Worthy are You to take the scroll and open its seals, because You were slain, and by Your blood You purchased for God those from every tribe and tongue and people and nation

Isaiah 12:5
Sing to the LORD, for He has done glorious things. Let this be known in all the earth.

Isaiah 14:7
All the earth is at peace and at rest; they break out in song

I keep on editing and adding in more scripture..I'll stop here

 

[stunnedbygrace]

the scene it paints is Jesus's return to heaven from earth (bozrah) and questions being asked by those there ...and answered

So then...He is saying to those in heaven that He killed His foes and spilled their blood on the ground and it is their blood that stains His robes, even though it was His own blood that He shed...?

And the reason I don’t understand this is because I don’t know Jewish idiom? And if I were Jewish I would know the code that bozrah means “earth and sin” and that it is those in heaven asking the questions?

You know I care for you brother, but this seems madness to me. I do not think you have anything here - not a literal understanding OR a spiritual understanding of that passage.

 

[Brakelite]

He will rule? "Isra" means “struggles” or “fights with,” and "El" means "God." Hence "fights with God." He gave this name to Jacob after he spent a night wrestling with Him (Genesis 32:28).

Yes, you are correct. Jacob fought, and overcame. Not the angel, but in his character. In asking his name, Jacob (supplanter) confessed his sin and his contending with the angel praying for his blessing, gained forgiveness, and a change of name. Israel.
At the time of this event, Jacob was reluctant to face Esau after 20 years of exile and was quite simply terrified of him. His former deception of his father and claim to be Esau was now playing on his conscience and he desired God’s blessing and forgiveness before proceeding. So the ‘Angel’ asks Jacob his name, to which he truthfully replies ‘my name is Jacob’. In this he was confessing his guilt, and God then knew he was a changed man, so gave him a new name that celebrated so to speak his victory over sin, self and his night of wrestling in prayer, the ‘Angel’ saying “for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.”
Israel, as a name therefore represents spiritual victory over sin.

This is significant as it tells us God’s purpose for His people. That is, to live in victory over sin, to show forth God’s true character to the world.

In Exod 4:22,23 Moses is instructed on how he is to speak to Pharaoh in order that Israel’s descendants may be freed from slavery. God says to Moses “and thou shalt say unto Pharaoh ‘Thus saith the Lord, Israel is My son, my firstborn and I say unto thee let My son go to serve me…”
This is the first time Israel is used in a corporate sense for the entire nation. Before it applied only to an individual, but here we see it being applied to his descendants. First to a victorious man, then to his people.
Did Israel live up to that name? What was God trying to accomplish in establishing Israel in the first place? Was it not that He would have a people to represent Him on the earth? Before God had His champions, but all failed. Sin interposed and no longer was any of God’s chosen able to fulfill the true destiny that God intended for them. Adam failed over appetite. So did Noah. Abraham also, but God was determined to establish a people after His own heart and show the gentiles His law, His mercy and grace and power. Interesting that Adam, Noah, and Israel all failed on points of appetite. (Gen 9:20,21; Exodus 16:27-29.)

It wasn’t until Jesus came on the scene in person that the title “Israel” in it’s truest spiritual sense and power could be rightly bestowed. And Mathew in particular showed this time and time again how Jesus was the fulfillment of the OT prophecies which may have originally applied to the nation, but now, according to Mathew’s inspired writings, applied in fact to Jesus. Examples are Hosea 11:1 ; Isaiah 41:8,42:1-3 .



Paul followed the same idea and reasoning by paralleling Col 1:15 with Ex 4:22, Gal 3:16 with Isaiah 41:8 and elsewhere.

Jesus Himself proclaimed Himself as the true vine, in fulfilment of Ps 80:8 which applied to the nation.
So now the mantle and authority once bestowed upon the nation has been given to Jesus. Jesus is the essence of true Israel. He only has the right to bear the name for He only has prevailed with sin and overcome. Jesus walked over the same ground that Israel walked, but came through victorious. In His temptations in the wilderness, it was appetite that came under particular scrutiny.

What Paul does in Romans and other writers in the NT however is extend that idea and show how the name Israel also now applies to Jesus’ descendants, just as it did to Jacob’s descendants. Peter also showed this when he compared the church to Exodus 19:6.(1 Peter 2:9).
So as Paul says, immediately after saying that Jesus is the ‘seed’ of Abraham, Gentile converts in Galatia were now also Abraham’s seed because they are Christ’s. They are also heirs according to the promise.
Their looking to literal Israel as a sign for the end of a mistake. It's the descendants of Jesus, the true Israel, who are now fulfilling the role intended for the nation, now desolate, but not completely abandoned.

 

[Brakelite]

Yes, you are correct. Jacob fought, and overcame. Not the angel, but in his character. In asking his name, Jacob (supplanter) confessed his sin and his commending with the angel praying for his blessing, gained forgiveness, and a change of name. Israel.
At the time of this event, Jacob was reluctant to face Esau after 20 years of exile and was quite simply terrified of him. His former deception of his father and claim to be Esau was now playing on his conscience and he desired God’s blessing and forgiveness before proceeding. So the ‘Angel’ asks Jacob his name, to which he truthfully replies ‘my name is Jacob’. In this he was confessing his guilt, and God then knew he was a changed man, so gave him a new name that celebrated so to speak his victory over sin, self and his night of wrestling in prayer, the ‘Angel’ saying “for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.”
Israel, as a name therefore represents spiritual victory over sin.

This is significant as it tells us God’s purpose for His people. That is, to live in victory over sin, to show forth God’s true character to the world.

In Exod 4:22,23 Moses is instructed on how he is to speak to Pharaoh in order that Israel’s descendants may be freed from slavery. God says to Moses “and thou shalt say unto Pharaoh ‘Thus saith the Lord, Israel is My son, my firstborn and I say unto thee let My son go to serve me…”
This is the first time Israel is used in a corporate sense for the entire nation. Before it applied only to an individual, but here we see it being applied to his descendants. First to a victorious man, then to his people.
Did Israel live up to that name? What was God trying to accomplish in establishing Israel in the first place? Was it not that He would have a people to represent Him on the earth? Before God had His champions, but all failed. Sin interposed and no longer was any of God’s chosen able to fulfill the true destiny that God intended for them. Adam failed over appetite. So did Noah. Abraham also, but God was determined to establish a people after His own heart and show the gentiles His law, His mercy and grace and power. Interesting that Adam, Noah, and Israel all failed on points of appetite. (Gen 9:20,21; Exodus 16:27-29.)

It wasn’t until Jesus came on the scene in person that the title “Israel” in it’s truest spiritual sense and power could be rightly bestowed. And Mathew in particular showed this time and time again how Jesus was the fulfillment of the OT prophecies which may have originally applied to the nation, but now, according to Mathew’s inspired writings, applied in fact to Jesus. Examples are Hosea 11:1 ; Isaiah 41:8,42:1-3 .



Paul followed the same idea and reasoning by paralleling Col 1:15 with Ex 4:22, Gal 3:16 with Isaiah 41:8 and elsewhere.

Jesus Himself proclaimed Himself as the true vine, in fulfilment of Ps 80:8 which applied to the nation.
So now the mantle and authority once bestowed upon the nation has been given to Jesus. Jesus is the essence of true Israel. He only has the right to bear the name for He only has prevailed with sin and overcome. Jesus walked over the same ground that Israel walked, but came through victorious. In His temptations in the wilderness, it was appetite that came under particular scrutiny.

What Paul does in Romans and other writers in the NT however is extend that idea and show how the name Israel also now applies to Jesus’ descendants, just as it did to Jacob’s descendants. Peter also showed this when he compared the church to Exodus 19:6.(1 Peter 2:9).
So as Paul says, immediately after saying that Jesus is the ‘seed’ of Abraham, Gentile converts in Galatia were now also Abraham’s seed because they are Christ’s. They are also heirs according to the promise.
Their looking to literal Israel as a sign for the end of a mistake. It's the descendants of Jesus, the true Israel, who are now fulfilling the role intended for the nation, now desolate, but not completely abandoned.

Just to amplify Isaiah 41:8...
.. after healing a group of people, Jesus modestly “charged them that they should not make him known: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias [Greek for Isaiah] the prophet, saying, Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets” (Matthew 12:16-19). Here the writer quotes Isaiah 42:1-3, a passage that originally applied to “Israel, ... my servant” (Isaiah 41:8). Yet Matthew again tells us it is “fulfilled” in Jesus Christ!

 

[Brakelite]

Further to the above....
Paul writes, “Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest on the law, and makest thy boast of God ... For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. Therefore if the uncircumcision [Gentiles] keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? ... For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God” (Romans 2:17, 25, 26, 28, 29).
So who is the real Israel? Really?

 

[Hidden In Him]

It wasn’t until Jesus came on the scene in person that the title “Israel” in it’s truest spiritual sense and power could be rightly bestowed. And Mathew in particular showed this time and time again how Jesus was the fulfillment of the OT prophecies which may have originally applied to the nation, but now, according to Mathew’s inspired writings, applied in fact to Jesus. Examples are Hosea 11:1 ; Isaiah 41:8,42:1-3 .

Paul followed the same idea and reasoning by paralleling Col 1:15 with Ex 4:22, Gal 3:16 with Isaiah 41:8 and elsewhere.

Jesus Himself proclaimed Himself as the true vine, in fulfilment of Ps 80:8 which applied to the nation.
So now the mantle and authority once bestowed upon the nation has been given to Jesus. Jesus is the essence of true Israel. He only has the right to bear the name for He only has prevailed with sin and overcome.

:)

Greetings, Backlit.

This seems to be a treatise on why God has forsaken the nation of Israel and turned to the church now instead, which I appreciate you sharing but is not a premise I agree with. But maybe we can get into that subject matter more later. I'm hoping to create a thread for this later on today, and I will tag you for it if I do.

God bless, and thanks for sharing just the same.
- H

 

[quietthinker]

So then...He is saying to those in heaven that He killed His foes and spilled their blood on the ground and it is their blood that stains His robes, even though it was His own blood that He shed...?

And the reason I don’t understand this is because I don’t know Jewish idiom? And if I were Jewish I would know the code that bozrah means “earth and sin” and that it is those in heaven asking the questions?

You know I care for you brother, but this seems madness to me. I do not think you have anything here - not a literal understanding OR a spiritual understanding of that passage.

The foe is sin and death....he beat the devil with his own life given (blood)

Jews for the most part don't 'hear' the scripture either....they don't understand the plan of redemption. They have invested value in the performance of the 'show' and miss the underlying message/intent
Even the disciples struggled till their eyes where opened ....and then they could join the dots ( :) another code/metaphor) as they were intended to be joined.

Often code is multilayered like in Revelation 13:18 where it actually tells the reader it is code. How is this revealed? because the call to wisdom is hardly wisdom if it tells us.

 

[Jostler]

Here is a recent update on the situation in Israel.....the heat is still on...

 

[quietthinker]

So then...He is saying to those in heaven that He killed His foes and spilled their blood on the ground and it is their blood that stains His robes, even though it was His own blood that He shed...?

And the reason I don’t understand this is because I don’t know Jewish idiom? And if I were Jewish I would know the code that bozrah means “earth and sin” and that it is those in heaven asking the questions?

You know I care for you brother, but this seems madness to me. I do not think you have anything here - not a literal understanding OR a spiritual understanding of that passage.

I've been in the workshop most of the day with diesel and oil on my hands thinking about your post here sbg.
I can assure you, there is no madness in my reply to you earlier.

When Jesus told the larger group of his followers that they needed to drink his blood and eat his flesh it was too much for the majority. For a Jew, drinking blood and cannibalism was an absolute no no ....
They never asked yet concluded that saying stuff like that was too much to handle, so they left.

an aside.....oddly though, they resorted to the unthinkable in the siege of Jerusalem in AD70

Later, it was explained to the twelve that this was code; he told them interpreting it literally is useless because its meaning is spiritual yet even with this explanation many today still interpret it literally.

.....and when one bends ones energies to interpret literally that which is not meant literally one can never arrive at its intent.

 

[kcnalp]

It must be really sad indeed to be an Israel wannabe.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I've been in the workshop most of the day with diesel and oil on my hands thinking about your post here sbg.
I can assure you, there is no madness in my reply to you earlier.

When Jesus told the larger group of his followers that they needed to drink his blood and eat his flesh it was too much for the majority. For a Jew, drinking blood and cannibalism was an absolute no no ....
They never asked yet concluded that saying stuff like that was too much to handle, so they left.

an aside.....oddly though, they resorted to the unthinkable in the siege of Jerusalem in AD70

Later, it was explained to the twelve that this was code; he told them interpreting it literally is useless because its meaning is spiritual yet even with this explanation many today still interpret it literally.

.....and when one bends ones energies to interpret literally that which is not meant literally one can never arrive at its intent.

I think you have gone a bad way if you cannot see a prophetic verse literally and insist it will not happen exactly as God has said AND you have not got the spirit of it. The code you keep talking about is not changing one word into another word, it is seeing the spirit and truth of a matter.

For instance, the literal meaning of do not murder is to not bludgeon a man to death. The spirit of do not murder, however, makes me see I am a murderer in truth. This does not mean I do away with the literal.

 

[mailmandan]

LIVE UPDATES: Israel calls up 9,000 reservists ahead of a possible ground invasion

 

[kcnalp]

Israel the nation has never been the true Israel of God, not in Old Testament times and not now. But this did not mean God forsook them, even in their idolatry. I quoted in the following post that God promised not to forsake His covenant with them to a thousand generations. How do you respond when people bring this up?

Good afternoon btw
- H
250 Rockets fired into Israel 5-11-2021

Another jealous Israel wannabe!

 

[Brakelite]

:)

Greetings, Backlit.

This seems to be a treatise on why God has forsaken the nation of Israel and turned to the church now instead, which I appreciate you sharing but is not a premise I agree with. But maybe we can get into that subject matter more later. I'm hoping to create a thread for this later on today, and I will tag you for it if I do.

God bless, and thanks for sharing just the same.
- H

I think the point that God had been making through all His prophets, and finally with Stephen, was that Israel had forsaken God, not the other way around. What Jesus said, no doubt in anticipation of the Sanhedrin stoning Stephen making their rejection of their Messiah final, "Your house, (no longer God's house, or His house as He had declared previously) but your house is left unto you desolate. Jesus was saying, basically that Israel had divorced herself from her husband. Several parables affirm this. God remained faithful...never forsook Israel despite their frequent adulteries, idolatries, and blasphemies. In the end, God was allowing the nation to have her own way. Individuals however can always come to Christ, and do.
However, with the above said, it remains that God still has His purposes for mankind. His purposes remain the same, regardless of man's plans and attempts at sabotaging them. God still desires that the gospel...the good news of the love and mercy of God through the shed blood of the Messiah, (the same good news message since His promise to Eve in the garden) needs to be taken to the world. Israel considered themselves unworthy of such a trust. Now it's our turn. I suggest we stop looking to Israel to do what God is calling us to accomplish. The final entity taking the gospel to the world is a repentant Laodicean church. It's a church without spot or wrinkle, filled with the zeal for the salvation of souls, filled with the Spirit of God and turning the world upside down by the power of God. The only other entity in those final days is Babylon. A composite of all governments, all religions, apostate Christian churches, secular atheist people, all under the authority of Rome, worshiping in vain teaching as doctrine the commandments of men. They are forming now under this newly named "Great Reset", although an old idea. "Building Back Better" necessitates the destruction of everything that is currently in place. That will include anyone and everyone who holds scripture as the foundation of faith and practice. Such is antithetical to the Papacy who is running the show. Even now, those who believe in the Bible, so called "fundamentalists", are now viewed as "terrorists" by law enforcement agencies.
The Antichrist isn't about to appear and set himself up in a rebuilt temple. Paul said the man of sin would sit in the temple of God. Such terminology restricts the temple to only one thing...the Christian church, which is the only body in which dwells the presence of God. Some might say that its impossible for the Antichrist to enter the church, yet didn't Jesus warn of this very thing when referring to the abomination of desolation, of which the desecration of the Jewish temple by Antiochus was a type?

 

[Hidden In Him]

I think the point that God had been making through all His prophets, and finally with Stephen, was that Israel had forsaken God, not the other way around. What Jesus said, no doubt in anticipation of the Sanhedrin stoning Stephen making their rejection of their Messiah final, "Your house, (no longer God's house, or His house as He had declared previously) but your house is left unto you desolate. Jesus was saying, basically that Israel had divorced herself from her husband.

Hey, bud.

That's actually a reference to the literal house of God - the temple in Jerusalem - since this is the focus of the entire response he gave from the outset, against the accusation that he like Jesus before him was speaking against the temple.

The Antichrist isn't about to appear and set himself up in a rebuilt temple. Paul said the man of sin would sit in the temple of God. Such terminology restricts the temple to only one thing...the Christian church, which is the only body in which dwells the presence of God. Some might say that its impossible for the Antichrist to enter the church, yet didn't Jesus warn of this very thing when referring to the abomination of desolation, of which the desecration of the Jewish temple by Antiochus was a type?

I created a thread for this yesterday and tagged you, I just don't know if the tag worked or not. But here it is. Maybe you can transfer your answers to there and we can discuss it later.
Literal Isreal In End-Times Prophecy