Life is not a politcal campaign where we get elected.

[StanJ]

SE(sovereign election) is a big sticking point now among many Baptists in the U.S.
It has divided the Southern Baptist Convention almost down the middle.
I would LIKE to just deal with the viability of it as it relates solely to scripture and not Calvinism/RT.
Can we do that?

What does this scripture tell us?
Romans 8:26-30
In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.
And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

 

[Nomad]

As difficult as it is for many to accept, sovereign election is a Biblical concept. There are many Scripture passages that I could bring to bear on this subject, but here is one of the most clear and succinct and it comes directly from our Lord himself:

Joh 6:64 But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)
Joh 6:65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

Now lets look at a passage in Acts where we see Jesus' teaching on election in action.

Act 13:47 For so the Lord has commanded us, saying, "'I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.'"
Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

 

[RANDOR]

Am I missin something here?

I thought...if ya just ask Jesus to forgive you of your sins and repent.............you are good to go.....

Do ya mean there is more to it than that ?

Boy I hope not

 

[Nomad]

Am I missin something here?

I thought...if ya just ask Jesus to forgive you of your sins and repent.............you are good to go.....

Do ya mean there is more to it than that ?

Boy I hope not

No you're not missing anything. We're saved by grace through faith in Christ just as Paul tells us in Ephesians. The topic of sovereign election looks at how one comes to faith in Christ.

 

[RANDOR]

I sure hope all come to know Christ.............wouldn't want my worst enemy to enter hell.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Am I missin something here?

I thought...if ya just ask Jesus to forgive you of your sins and repent.............you are good to go.....

Do ya mean there is more to it than that ?

Boy I hope not

A humorous and well played point. In order for men to repent, God must be willing to woo them to repentance. Calvinists take this too far by suggesting that some receive this invoking and others are eternally denied it by predestination. But God calls all men to repentance, not willing that any should perish. He calls every person, saying "I've set before you living and dying, blessing and cursing. Choose life, that you may live!"

But the opposite extreme to Calvinism is this mistaken belief that God is a slot machine, that if we say the right magical incantation, we are saved. People who believe this denounce my belief that some people have committed such grave evil that they cannot repent, for God has with great sadness consigned them to their choice. It's logical to assume that if God is willing to draw people to repentance, he's equally capable of exercising election. That means that we can't come to God unless God is willing, and God can justly be unwilling. I don't believe that God easily gives up on people, but those who murder (repeatedly) rape and molest children, and commit other acts of serial wickedness, have made clear their choice to reject the love and goodness of God. If God writes them off, he is merely consigning them to their course of volition.

 

[laid renard]

I don't believe that God easily gives up on people, but those who murder (repeatedly) rape and molest children, and commit other acts of serial wickedness, have made clear their choice to reject the love and goodness of God. If God writes them off, he is merely consigning them to their course of volition.

Exactly. Reprobates. What society calls sociopaths, God calls demon possessed. God knows all. He sees the beginning, middle and end as if it were one, for to Him, it is. He knows who will never come to Him, so he simply hands them over to satan. I was married to such a man. Did not know til he bragged to me of all the evil he had done. You see, demon possessed people are very good actors. Extremely capable of fooling even the most accomplished expert in any field, and are highly intelligent and personable people. And why shouldn't they be ? They have entities inside them who have been around since the beginning of man's time. Of course they are gonna know everything.
My ex husband deceitfully charmed me by telling me he saw what a nice Christian girl I was and that it made him want to change. It was a lie--his father invented them you know. He just wanted to get me pregnant so he could then sell our baby for drug money. A month before I put two and two together, he confessed to me that he was a clinically diagnosed sociopath. Proudly showed me his "crazy papers", as he called them. The whole time we were married he was receiving monthly government benefits because of it. I never knew about it til the last month before I left him. Blew my mind. I was such an innocent. What they prey on....

No God doesn't reject not even one person. They reject Him.

 

[RANDOR]

Exactly. Reprobates. What society calls sociopaths, God calls demon possessed. God knows all. He sees the beginning, middle and end as if it were one, for to Him, it is. He knows who will never come to Him, so he simply hands them over to satan. I was married to such a man. Did not know til he bragged to me of all the evil he had done. You see, demon possessed people are very good actors. Extremely capable of fooling even the most accomplished expert in any field, and are highly intelligent and personable people. And why shouldn't they be ? They have entities inside them who have been around since the beginning of man's time. Of course they are gonna know everything.
My ex husband deceitfully charmed me by telling me he saw what a nice Christian girl I was and that it made him want to change. It was a lie--his father invented them you know. He just wanted to get me pregnant so he could then sell our baby for drug money. A month before I put two and two together, he confessed to me that he was a clinically diagnosed sociopath. Proudly showed me his "crazy papers", as he called them. The whole time we were married he was receiving monthly government benefits because of it. I never knew about it til the last month before I left him. Blew my mind. I was such an innocent. What they prey on....

No God doesn't reject not even one person. They reject Him.

AMEN.................THE WORST OF SINNERS...........MAKE THE BEST DECIPLES............FOR THEY HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN OF MUCH......
THEIR CHAINS........ARE NO MORE..............
EVEN SOME WHO CALL THEMSELVES CHRISTIANS...............WILL BE THE FIRST TO FLIP THE SWITCH ON THE ELECTRIC CHAIR.....

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Exactly. Reprobates. What society calls sociopaths, God calls demon possessed. God knows all. He sees the beginning, middle and end as if it were one, for to Him, it is. He knows who will never come to Him, so he simply hands them over to satan. I was married to such a man. Did not know til he bragged to me of all the evil he had done. You see, demon possessed people are very good actors. Extremely capable of fooling even the most accomplished expert in any field, and are highly intelligent and personable people. And why shouldn't they be ? They have entities inside them who have been around since the beginning of man's time. Of course they are gonna know everything.
My ex husband deceitfully charmed me by telling me he saw what a nice Christian girl I was and that it made him want to change. It was a lie--his father invented them you know. He just wanted to get me pregnant so he could then sell our baby for drug money. A month before I put two and two together, he confessed to me that he was a clinically diagnosed sociopath. Proudly showed me his "crazy papers", as he called them. The whole time we were married he was receiving monthly government benefits because of it. I never knew about it til the last month before I left him. Blew my mind. I was such an innocent. What they prey on....

No God doesn't reject not even one person. They reject Him.

I agree with your assessment of demon possession. Crazy doesn't necessarily mean evil. I know people with mental illness who are about the kindest people I know and would do anything for me. Doctors try to diagnose evil, but evil isn't a mental illness, it's a sheer act of will. People wince when anyone suggests that people are possessed by Satan or serve Satan, but why not? Jesus himself told the Pharisees the plain truth, that they are of their father, the devil and do his bidding. Why do people who follow Jesus fear to be as plainly spoken as Jesus was?

I still stand by my claim that at some point God shuns people, cutting them off completely from his grace and his enticement to repentance, though I agree with you it's they who reject God first in such unambiguous ways as to make their choice clear. One has only to look at the Egyptian Pharaoh whose heart God hardened. The Pharaoh made his decision already and God set that decision in concrete.

One movie I like is called "Changeling". Part of the movie was about a man who was convicted of kidnapping and murdering several little boys. He talked to the minister and prayed and repented of his wrongdoing before his hanging and expressed confidence that he was forgiven. But on the day of his execution as he was ascending the steps to the hanging platform, he became absolutely terrified because he saw the precipice and knew that indeed he had not been forgiven and he would certainly go to hell. The movie captured this very well, the change in demeanor when he realized his magical incantation wasn't going to save him from paying an eternal price for his wickedness. Just a movie, you say? I think sometimes movies hit the nail perfectly. Some might suggest that he didn't repent with a sincere heart. I simply remind people that God is sovereign and not a slot machine. His prayer wasn't accepted because God refused to accept it. I believe this happens in real life as well, to the truly wicked who spent their lives destroying the lives of others.

Repentance is an act of two willing parties. I wish people understood this better.

 

[Nomad]

But God calls all men to repentance, not willing that any should perish. He calls every person, saying "I've set before you living and dying, blessing and cursing. Choose life, that you may live!

Allusions to Scripture passages ripped out of context lend no support to your protest.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

This verse was not written to the world. It was written to believers as a reminder that God is not slow with regard to his promise of the second coming, but "patient toward YOU, not willing that any should perish." Who is "you" in that statement? It's not difficult to discover.

2Pe 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

and again...

2Pe 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

Peter is writing to "those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours..." He is writing to ones he calls "beloved." Again, Peter is writing to believers. That's who "you" is in your proof text. It does not refer to the world. Errors like this can be avoided if we're diligent to read our proof texts in context.

Now for your second allusion:

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Again, this was not written for the whole world. It was written for Israel. God's covenant was with Israel alone. God sent no prophet to the nations surrounding Israel that they should hear this warning nor did he make a covenant with them.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

AMEN.................THE WORST OF SINNERS...........MAKE THE BEST DECIPLES............FOR THEY HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN OF MUCH......
THEIR CHAINS........ARE NO MORE..............
EVEN SOME WHO CALL THEMSELVES CHRISTIANS...............WILL BE THE FIRST TO FLIP THE SWITCH ON THE ELECTRIC CHAIR.....

Jesus said blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy. It's a teaching so profound that it's understandable that many people miss the reciprocal implication, that those who live lives unmercifully shall NOT receive mercy. God is sovereign and will have mercy on whom he will. He's not a slot machine to be manipulated to a precise result when the right magical incantation is chanted.

Allusions to Scripture passages ripped out of context lend no support to your protest.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

This verse was not written to the world. It was written to believers as a reminder that God is not slow with regard to his promise of the second coming, but "patient toward YOU, not willing that any should perish." Who is "you" in that statement? It's not difficult to discover.

2Pe 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

and again...

2Pe 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

Peter is writing to "those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours..." He is writing to ones he calls "beloved." Again, Peter is writing to believers. That's who "you" is in your proof text. It does not refer to the world. Errors like this can be avoided if we're diligent to read our proof texts in context.

Now for your second allusion:

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Again, this was not written for the whole world. It was written for Israel. God's covenant was with Israel alone. God sent no prophet to the nations surrounding Israel that they should hear this warning nor did he make a covenant with them.

My position walks a tightrope between Calvinism that claims infallible salvation or perdition based on predestination and the opposite extreme that has God utterly passive in the salvation transaction, as I spelled out further in my previous posts. It's true that Israel was God's own special people, but as Jesus said, the Jews would be the font of salvation for the whole world, for the message of the gospel is "to the Jew first, then also to the gentile" as prescribed in Romans. But Christians, particularly gentile Christians are described in Scripture as being "grafted in" to the covenant.

So no, I don't agree that the cited passages are exclusive only to Christians, because God calls ALL MEN to repent everywhere, as St. Paul said to the Athenians, and the message and the promise is to all men everywhere. God sets before every person living and dying, blessing and cursing and urges every person to CHOOSE LIFE.

But the other side of this is that God may certainly cut off completely those souls that have demonstrated through their actions a categorical decision to reject God for all time. It's why I do battle against the "slot machine" image people have made of God, that casts his participation in the salvation transaction as completely involuntary. God is sovereign and as he says, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy" and he hardens who he desires to as well. There is an evil assumption made about God in some Christian circles that he is bound in his decisions. The "name it, claim it" type of preaching really pushes the envelope on this, thinking in such an ugly American fashion, that we have "rights" to claim God's promises. It's a different symptom of the same problem, the misguided belief that God is a machine that acts in expected ways as programmed to do so.

And the even uglier truth about that is simple. We like control so much that we even attempt to control the Almighty. We're really like children that way, aren't we?

 

[Nomad]

It's true that Israel was God's own special people, but as Jesus said, the Jews would be the font of salvation for the whole world, for the message of the gospel is "to the Jew first, then also to the gentile" as prescribed in Romans. But Christians, particularly gentile Christians are described in Scripture as being "grafted in" to the covenant.

It is true that salvation through Israel would come to every tribe, tongue, and nation eventually, but those who deny sovereign election are forgetting something painfully obvious about the Old Testament world. From Adam to Christ God was pleased to pass by most of the world, allowing them all to die in their sins. God made a covenant with one nation alone and that nation was never commissioned to be evangelical. God sent no preacher and no prophet to the world at large in those days. There was no "offer" of salvation to the nations in the days of OT Israel. That was God's sovereign choice whether we like it or not.

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

So no, I don't agree that the cited passages are exclusive only to Christians...

Peter made it abundantly clear to whom he was writing. He was writing to "those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours" in chapter 1. He directs his comments to the "beloved" in the first verse of chapter 3 which contains the verse in question. Show me where Peter shifts his comments to an audience other than believers in the first 9 verses of chapter 3.

 

[RANDOR]

RANDOR, on 17 Jun 2014 - 4:22 PM, said:

AMEN.................THE WORST OF SINNERS...........MAKE THE BEST DECIPLES............FOR THEY HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN OF MUCH......
THEIR CHAINS........ARE NO MORE..............
EVEN SOME WHO CALL THEMSELVES CHRISTIANS...............WILL BE THE FIRST TO FLIP THE SWITCH ON THE ELECTRIC CHAIR.....

This Vale Of Tearshttp://www.christianityboard.com/user/9485-this-vale-of-tears/Jesus said blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy. It's a teaching so profound that it's understandable that many people miss the reciprocal implication, that those who live lives unmercifully shall NOT receive mercy. God is sovereign and will have mercy on whom he will. He's not a slot machine to be manipulated to a precise result when the right magical incantation is chanted.
___________________________________________________________________________________________

HUH?

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

It is true that salvation through Israel would come to every tribe, tongue, and nation eventually, but those who deny sovereign election are forgetting something painfully obvious about the Old Testament world. From Adam to Christ God was pleased to pass by most of the world, allowing them all to die in their sins. God made a covenant with one nation alone and that nation was never commissioned to be evangelical. God sent no preacher and no prophet to the world at large in those days. There was no "offer" of salvation to the nations in the days of OT Israel. That was God's sovereign choice whether we like it or not.

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.




Peter made it abundantly clear to whom he was writing. He was writing to "those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours" in chapter 1. He directs his comments to the "beloved" in the first verse of chapter 3 which contains the verse in question. Show me where Peter shifts his comments to an audience other than believers in the first 9 verses of chapter 3.

Every epistle writer was writing to a specific audience. But their letters became part of the canon of Scripture and its benefits made available to a much wider audience. Your belief that Peter's or any Apostle's letters were intended for an exclusive audience is predicated on your belief in Limited Atonement, a belief I do not share. It makes your claim an opinion only, having validity only within the confines of your belief system. I believe as most Christians do that Jesus died for everyone, that John 3:16 alone tramples all TULIPs. Because of that you'll never get me to agree that the epistles are meant for an exclusive audience.

RANDOR, on 17 Jun 2014 - 4:22 PM, said:
This Vale Of Tearshttp://www.christianityboard.com/user/9485-this-vale-of-tears/Jesus said blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy. It's a teaching so profound that it's understandable that many people miss the reciprocal implication, that those who live lives unmercifully shall NOT receive mercy. God is sovereign and will have mercy on whom he will. He's not a slot machine to be manipulated to a precise result when the right magical incantation is chanted.
___________________________________________________________________________________________

HUH?

At a loss for words, my friend?

 

[StanJ]

As difficult as it is for many to accept, sovereign election is a Biblical concept. There are many Scripture passages that I could bring to bear on this subject, but here is one of the most clear and succinct and it comes directly from our Lord himself:

Joh 6:64 But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)
Joh 6:65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

Now lets look at a passage in Acts where we see Jesus' teaching on election in action.

Act 13:47 For so the Lord has commanded us, saying, "'I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.'"
Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

You see this type of response is not conducive to open discourse. If you see it then show it IN scripture, but I don't see it so I don't accept it. Saying there are many scriptures doesn't really mean anything to me. SE comes from Jean Cauvin, NOT Jesus.

Yes, Jesus used His foreknowledge as God when He ministered on earth. Knowing something does not convey predestined SE. Jesus also said in John 14:6; No one comes to the Father except through me.
Nothing here indicates SE.

All Acts 13:48 means is that God determined by His foreknowledge, who would accept their message. Paul deals with this in Rom 8:28-30.

 

[RANDOR]

Every epistle writer was writing to a specific audience. But their letters became part of the canon of Scripture and its benefits made available to a much wider audience. Your belief that Peter's or any Apostle's letters were intended for an exclusive audience is predicated on your belief in Limited Atonement, a belief I do not share. It makes your claim an opinion only, having validity only within the confines of your belief system. I believe as most Christians do that Jesus died for everyone, that John 3:16 alone tramples all TULIPs. Because of that you'll never get me to agree that the epistles are meant for an exclusive audience.

At a loss for words, my friend?

Nope.....never at a loss for words.........................it's just that I didn't understand what you were getting at...with your post.
I'm a little slow.......but I'll catch on to all this Jesus stuff

 

[StanJ]

Allusions to Scripture passages ripped out of context lend no support to your protest.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

This verse was not written to the world. It was written to believers as a reminder that God is not slow with regard to his promise of the second coming, but "patient toward YOU, not willing that any should perish." Who is "you" in that statement? It's not difficult to discover.

2Pe 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

and again...

2Pe 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

Peter is writing to "those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours..." He is writing to ones he calls "beloved." Again, Peter is writing to believers. That's who "you" is in your proof text. It does not refer to the world. Errors like this can be avoided if we're diligent to read our proof texts in context.

Now for your second allusion:

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Again, this was not written for the whole world. It was written for Israel. God's covenant was with Israel alone. God sent no prophet to the nations surrounding Israel that they should hear this warning nor did he make a covenant with them.

Again you opine based on your dogmatic POV. This was NOT ripped out of context. The context was believers who were being impatient, and the message was that God wants ALL men to repent. Or is it that you believe those that were saved could perish if God waited to long?

Peter in both places here is talking to believers, who received Christ as their savior. It was thrust upon them, they received it, just as anyone receives a gift. Willingly and gladly with thankfulness and humility.

The choice was still theirs in Deut and Joshua Nomad. It was NOT forced on them. God gave Israel the same choice of Jesus as He gave us.

Who was Jesus addressing in Matthew 7 when He said;
“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened."

God does indeed draw us, but WE choose.

 

[Nomad]

All Acts 13:48 means is that God determined by His foreknowledge, who would accept their message. Paul deals with this in Rom 8:28-30.

Your view of God's foreknowledge is contradicted by what Scripture clearly says about man's inability to seek God.

Rom 3:10 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one;
Rom 3:11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.

If God actually looked down the corridor of time as Arminians like to say, Romans 3:11 tells us exactly what he would see. No one understands. No one seeks for God. That's what God would see. Therefore, God must initiate salvation. It's God's choice who the recipients of his grace will be. That's sovereign election.

 

[StanJ]

Your view of God's foreknowledge is contradicted by what Scripture clearly says about man's inability to seek God.

Rom 3:10 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one;
Rom 3:11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.

If God actually looked down the corridor of time as Arminians like to say, Romans 3:11 tells us exactly what he would see. No one understands. No one seeks for God. That's what God would see. Therefore, God must initiate salvation. It's God's choice who the recipients of his grace will be. That's sovereign election.

My view IS scripture, as I gave you and for which you failed to address.
Rom 3:10-11 is about those under the law, It doesn't apply to SE in even a remote way. You should read what v20 says as well as 21-31 at the end of that same chapter.
First of all I am not Arminian and secondly I didn't say "looked down the corridor of time". There is no corridor of time. There is time for us, and a perspective outside of time for God. You say MUST, but provide no concrete scripture to support it.
Rom 10:9-13
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

 

[RANDOR]

StanJ.......yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeHaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
I called on the name of the Lord and was saved