Life is not a politcal campaign where we get elected.

[Nomad]

Rom 3:10-11 is about those under the law,

Wrong. Paul's message is that Jews and Gentiles are all under sin. He then proceeds to utter the words of verses 10 & 11 as proof of that present reality.

You say MUST, but provide no concrete scripture to support it.

I certainly did.

Rom 3:11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.

Therefore, God must initiate salvation. This is exactly what we see in John 6:

Joh 6:65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

Again, this is sovereign election.

 

[StanJ]

Wrong. Paul's message is that Jews and Gentiles are all under sin. He then proceeds to utter the words of verses 10 & 11 as proof of that present reality.

I certainly did.

Rom 3:11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.

Therefore, God must initiate salvation. This is exactly what we see in John 6:

Joh 6:65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

Again, this is sovereign election.

Yeh no. Paul is addressing Jews and starts to do so in Rom 2:17...again read verse 9.
Romans 3:10-18 is Paul quoting from the OT to the Jews, NOT the Gentiles.
He is quoting from;

1. Romans 3:12 : Ps 14:1-3; 53:1-3; Ecc 7:20
2. Romans 3:13 : Ps 5:9
3. Romans 3:13 : Ps 140:3
4. Romans 3:14 : Ps 10:7
5. Romans 3:17 : Isa 59:7, 8
6. Romans 3:18 : Ps 36:1

How you get therefore from that is beyond me? I've already addressed John 6:65, and gave you further scripture which you have ignored and not addressed, so you have NOT proven SE at all.

StanJ.......yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeHaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
I called on the name of the Lord and was saved

Yep, that much is obvious my friend.

 

[Nomad]

More proof of election...

As we've seen in the many Scripture passages I've presented in previous posts, unregenerate man is incapable of making the first move toward God. Therefore, God must even initiate the unregenerate man's faith and repentance.

Faith is granted by God:

Phi 1:29 because to you it hath been granted in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer in his behalf. . .

Act 18:27 And when he was minded to pass over into Achaia, the brethren encouraged him, and wrote to the disciples to receive him: and when he was come, he helped them much that had believed through grace;

2Pe 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

Repentance is granted by God:

Act 5:31 Him did God exalt with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, to give repentance to Israel, and remission of sins.

Act 11:18 And when they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then to the Gentiles also hath God granted repentance unto life.

2Ti 2:25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth...

 

[StanJ]

I guess if you can't refute you ignore. :huh:

 

[Nomad]

I guess if you can't refute you ignore. :huh:

I've already gone back and forth with you more than once on every Scripture reference presented and you continue to twist them all. The last one was probably the worst of all. For example you made the following comment regarding Rom. 3:11:

Yeh no. Paul is addressing Jews and starts to do so in Rom 2:17...again read verse 9.

It's completely irrelevant to my argument who Paul is addressing. The point Paul is making includes both Jews and Gentiles. He says as much in verse 9 and then proceeds to employ OT texts to support his statement. Yet instead of accepting the painfully obvious, you continue to come up with ridiculous arguments in an attempt to diffuse what Scripture plainly says. I'll make my point once or twice, but I refuse to go around in circles with anyone.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

As difficult as it is for many to accept, sovereign election is a Biblical concept. There are many Scripture passages that I could bring to bear on this subject, but here is one of the most clear and succinct and it comes directly from our Lord himself:

Joh 6:64 But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)
Joh 6:65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

Now lets look at a passage in Acts where we see Jesus' teaching on election in action.

Act 13:47 For so the Lord has commanded us, saying, "'I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.'"
Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

Well said , and I agree these things are clear in the bible , it might seem unfair but that's beside the point

On that same note I experienced interesting results 25 years ago , when I realized my evangelism was not working (I tried to evangelize whenever appropriate , friends , family etc)

So I quit.

From that moment on , people "fell into my lap" (god set up the circumstances) .... it continues to this day , I just walk aimlessly thru life (no evangelism) and these encounters occur on a regular basis with 100% results .... I sometimes think we christians try too hard , and then we miss the little things god puts in our path.

Like I said ... when I "quit" .... then everything started working. ... some amazing stories I could tell.

Jesus builds his church , it is his game , it is his choosing , with a bit of assistance from us from time to time

 

[RANDOR]

The Word Brings Salvation
…12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED." 14How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?…

That be you....that be me.........

We may be the only bible anyone reads..............

A heathen knows better how a Christian should act...............thank God for heathens.............for they keep us on our toes

 

[StanJ]

I've already gone back and forth with you more than once on every Scripture reference presented and you continue to twist them all. The last one was probably the worst of all. For example you made the following comment regarding Rom. 3:11:


It's completely irrelevant to my argument who Paul is addressing. The point Paul is making includes both Jews and Gentiles. He says as much in verse 9 and then proceeds to employ OT texts to support his statement. Yet instead of accepting the painfully obvious, you continue to come up with ridiculous arguments in an attempt to diffuse what Scripture plainly says. I'll make my point once or twice, but I refuse to go around in circles with anyone.

Not that I've seen. Maybe someone else can show me?

The target of any message is not irrelevant unless you want it to be. Rom 3:11 is directed at the Jews who were under the law there and in the OT and it holds true regardless. It does NOT support SE.
Paul does say Jews and Gentiles are under the power of sin, which is why the law did not work for the Jews and acceptance of Jesus by faith did work for the Gentiles. Again the full context needs to be understood to see what Paul is talking about here, and not just an eisegetical usage of a couple of verses.
Again Matthew 7:7
“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you."

If SE was in scripture then Jesus never would have instructed this.

Well said , and I agree these things are clear in the bible , it might seem unfair but that's beside the point

On that same note I experienced interesting results 25 years ago , when I realized my evangelism was not working (I tried to evangelize whenever appropriate , friends , family etc)

So I quit.

From that moment on , people "fell into my lap" (god set up the circumstances) .... it continues to this day , I just walk aimlessly thru life (no evangelism) and these encounters occur on a regular basis with 100% results .... I sometimes think we christians try too hard , and then we miss the little things god puts in our path.

Like I said ... when I "quit" .... then everything started working. ... some amazing stories I could tell.

Jesus builds his church , it is his game , it is his choosing , with a bit of assistance from us from time to time

So Arnie you think the Great Commission by Jesus was a waste of time?

 

[RANDOR]

Who killed Jesus?..................was it the Pharisees?
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm I guess they thought they had it right...........that is, until the real truth showed up

They have a form of religion..but denys it's power......have nothing to do with them...........think that's in the bible somewhere.

I love this power...........this power that Jesus said we would have...for you will do greater things than I....hope I got that right

And I especially love to see people (lost souls) come under that power.
YeeeeeeeeeeeeeeHaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa it's a beautiful thing

Doctrine............screws with people's heads.......satan loves that.

A man who has truly given his life to Christ and has been forgiven of his sins..........and I mean truly been forgiven....just didn't read the scritpures and took the scriptures and hoped they were true....or tried to live his life as if they were true...
Doesn't really care about scriptures..........I mean.....unless he sees someone who is not introducing the power or love which goes with those scriptures.
NO!!!!!!!!! has been truly forgiven by Jesus Himself.

Heck........ I think I went way off topic here..........sorry

Sometimes I just ramble...........didn't mean to interrupt. carry on....I'll just back on outta here

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

So Arnie you think the Great Commission by Jesus was a waste of time?

No



StanJ , have you ever taken a moment to see who the great commission was directed to ?

Read it again please

 

[Floyd]

That Christians are "foreknown" is not in question.
That they have "freewill", some question; but we undoubtedly do have it.
That the human race is "fallen" since Eden is not doubted.
That the antidote to the "fall" is Christ Jesus, is not questioned by Christians.
So; what did Jesus say regarding Himself?

[SIZE=16pt]An incontrovertible point is made by Jesus Christ Himself when asked what the works of God are; "the works of God are that you believe in Him whom He has sent", (John 6:28-29)![/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]See full text: [/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Calvinist "Works" Teachinghttp://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/Calvinist Works Teaching.htm [/SIZE]

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

The Word Brings Salvation
…12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED." 14How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?…

That be you....that be me.........

We may be the only bible anyone reads..............

A heathen knows better how a Christian should act...............thank God for heathens.............for they keep us on our toes

This is the problem with Calvinism, they ignore any part of the Bible that is unflattering to their well tended garden of TULIPs. The passage you cite is one of many throughout scripture that grants the gospel and the chance of salvation to ALL PEOPLE EVERYWHERE, not just the "elect". But Calvinism, in true Protestant fashion, picks and chooses what they can fit to their belief system and discards the rest. But ultimately it's their belief system, not the Bible, which they treasure above all.

 

[Floyd]

This is the problem with Calvinism, they ignore any part of the Bible that is unflattering to their well tended garden of TULIPs. The passage you cite is one of many throughout scripture that grants the gospel and the chance of salvation to ALL PEOPLE EVERYWHERE, not just the "elect". But Calvinism, in true Protestant fashion, picks and chooses what they can fit to their belief system and discards the rest. But ultimately it's their belief system, not the Bible, which they treasure above all.

Agree !
Floyd.


The Elect Calvin Onwards

This is a very controversial subject in Christendom. The classical definition is accepted by some as that of John Calvin, the well-known theologian, and one of the important Protestant reformers of the 16th century. In fact there is considerable doubt as to whether Calvin was in fact the father of the classical definition, as it seems to have emerged after his death in AD 1564 under the influence of Theodore Beza. In fact Calvin himself refused to dogmatically conclude what many of his fellows and students readily accepted. But, what Calvin formally refused to confirm was embodied eventually in the Articles of the Synod of Dort (AD 1618-19). This definition holds that “Christ died only for the elect (chosen).” What this means in effect is that only some people are “elected” to be saved, which to the writers does not seem to conform to the whole of Scripture, and especially to the New Testament! It is however ironic that Calvin is now chained to that definition, in what became known as the “Calvin Secondary Form,” but was in fact under the force of Beza! Calvin is however on record as stating before his death that “election is related to the Person and Work of Christ”.
Full text: Elect Calvin onwards; http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/The Elect Calvin onwards.htm

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Now THAT's an insightful post, especially the last statement which is the historical and most widely accepted understanding of election.

 

[StanJ]

No

StanJ , have you ever taken a moment to see who the great commission was directed to ?

Read it again please

Yes Arnie, but do you think that negates it's applicability to any believers or disciple of Christ? The Bible is an account of many things said to individuals people or persons, but it's universal message is not discounted because of that. Context is always important, as is it's universal application in most cases.
I've been reading the Bible for over 43 years Arnie.

 

[Nomad]

Rom 3:11 is directed at the Jews who were under the law there and in the OT and it holds true regardless. It does NOT support SE.

Anyone with average reading comprehension can see that you're dead wrong.

Rom 3:9 What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin,
Rom 3:10 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one;
Rom 3:11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.

1. Notice the present tense verbs in verse 9. "ARE we Jews any better off?" and "both Jews and Greeks ARE under sin.

2. There is no break between verse 9 and the following few verses. It flows from one verse to the next. It's all one thought or explanation regarding the statement make in verse 9.

3. If Paul's words in verse 11 only apply to the Jews, then his words only apply to Jews in verse 10 as well. Do you seriously want to make that argument?

If that's not enough, and I know it won't be, then let's look at some of Paul's OT sources. Pay close attention to what I've put in bold type. The Psalmist's words are about and apply to all men, both Jew and Gentile. It doesn't get any clearer than this.

Psa 14:1 To the choirmaster. Of David. The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds, there is none who does good.
Psa 14:2 The LORD looks down from heaven on the children of man, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God.
Psa 14:3 They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is none who does good, not even one.

Psa 53:1 To the choirmaster: according to Mahalath. A Maskil of David. The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, doing abominable iniquity; there is none who does good.
Psa 53:2 God looks down from heaven on the children of man to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God.
Psa 53:3 They have all fallen away; together they have become corrupt; there is none who does good, not even one.

Again Matthew 7:7
“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you."

If SE was in scripture then Jesus never would have instructed this.

The meaning that you're attempting to pour into this verse is pure eisogesis. Had you bothered to read the next few verses you would have seen that it just doesn't help your case. Let's look at your text in context.

Mat 7:7 "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
Mat 7:8 For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.
Mat 7:9 Or which one of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone?
Mat 7:10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent?
Mat 7:11 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

1. There is absolutely no reference to salvation in this text. That's not what its about at all.

2. The instructions embodied in this text are for disciples. That is, those who are already saved. Don't believe me? Look at verse 6 in this discourse. This would only apply to a believer.

Mat 7:6 "Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you.

3. Most importantly, when we get to verse 11 we've come full circle. The asking, seeking and knocking pertains to the "good things" the Father will give to those who ask. I'm sorry, but you can't force salvation into this text.

 

[StanJ]

Anyone with average reading comprehension can see that you're dead wrong.


The meaning that you're attempting to pour into this verse is pure eisogesis. Had you bothered to read the next few verses you would have seen that it just doesn't help your case. Let's look at your text in context.

Mat 7:7 "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
Mat 7:8 For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.
Mat 7:9 Or which one of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone?
Mat 7:10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent?
Mat 7:11 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

1. There is absolutely no reference to salvation in this text. That's not what its about at all.

2. The instructions embodied in this text are for disciples. That is, those who are already saved. Don't believe me? Look at verse 6 in this discourse. This would only apply to a believer.

Mat 7:6 "Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you.

3. Most importantly, when we get to verse 11 we've come full circle. The asking, seeking and knocking pertains to the "good things" the Father will give to those who ask. I'm sorry, but you can't force salvation into this text.

Oh nice, start your defense with an ad hominem. That always works......not!

and what exactly is Jesus telling them to look for when he instructs them to ask, seek and knock? Funny how you look for words in this text when it suits you, but imply it in other text for the same reason. That is not exegesis. The only thing Jesus would be alluding to in these scriptures is what he is preaching and witnessing about, the Good News. Verse 14 doesn't use the word salvation either so by your logic it is not talking about Jesus and Him being the gate for the sheep as He teaches in John 10:9?
Jesus came for the lost sheep of Israel, and that is all that He preached, His messiah ship. That is salvation my friend.
I suppose because God made you saved, you can't see it when Jesus talks about it in the scriptures?
The Sermon on the Mount, of which Matthew 7 is a part of, was directed at Jews who did NOT know God's plan of Jesus as His plan. That is scripture reading 101.

 

[shturt678]

Guess it's about time for the good ol' "conditional election" routine. Thank you folks for really caring, ie, a walk in the park. Rom.8:28 The pregnant word "called" ("elect"), which is used in the Letters (Epistles) as a designation of those who not only have received he call (Christians, and in the Kingdom of God "outwardly"), but also have been won by it (in the "Kingdom of God "inwardly") regarding one's salvation whether as individuals or collectively excluding Jesus' election, angel's, and Israel.

Now the walking in the park part: Two aspects of "1" election ("call"): Always in the Letters, this calling is efficacious, successful, having produced acceptance "inwardly," ie, in the first three gospels the call only in the Kingdom "outwardly" thus after the 1st century all to measure where they are at regarding the Kingdom of God in the Gospel's sense, ie, not on the Letter's sense.

Sadly Churches have to combine the two calls to keep their economics going to the point where to many promote hypergrace.

Old passive walk in the park Jack

 

[StanJ]

Sorry old jack but you lost me at "Guess it's about time".

 

[Nomad]

No, I haven't forgotten. Let's try this again.

More proof of election...

As we've seen in the many Scripture passages I've presented in previous posts, unregenerate man is incapable of making the first move toward God. Therefore, God must even initiate the unregenerate man's faith and repentance.

Faith is granted by God:

Phi 1:29 because to you it hath been granted in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer in his behalf. . .

Act 18:27 And when he was minded to pass over into Achaia, the brethren encouraged him, and wrote to the disciples to receive him: and when he was come, he helped them much that had believed through grace;

2Pe 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

Repentance is granted by God:

Act 5:31 Him did God exalt with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, to give repentance to Israel, and remission of sins.

Act 11:18 And when they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then to the Gentiles also hath God granted repentance unto life.

2Ti 2:25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth...