Limited atonement means salvation by grace. Universal atonement means salvation by works.

[BreadOfLife]

Why aren't all saved if Jesus paid for their sins? How do you get around salvation by works claiming this?

NOBODY was saved at Calvary. We were REDEEMED.
BIG difference.

Our sins were paid for - NOT forgiven. Forgiveness requires OUR repentance.
EVERYBODY who was or will be saved cooperates with the grace that was given by Christ's finished work on the cross. NOBODY was "automatically" saved or forgiven when Christ died on the cross.

 

[Dave L]

NOBODY was saved at Calvary. We were REDEEMED.
BIG difference.

Our sins were paid for - NOT forgiven. Forgiveness requires OUR repentance.
EVERYBODY who was or will be saved cooperates with the grace that was given by Christ's finished work on the cross. NOBODY was "automatically" saved or forgiven when Christ died on the cross.

It works like this. Christ paid for the sins of the elect on the cross. Based on this God creates a new heart in us that hates sin and craves holiness. Repentance brings the fullness of the Holy Spirit which is the most rewarding experience a person can have.

 

[BreadOfLife]

It works like this. Christ paid for the sins of the elect on the cross. Based on this God creates a new heart in us that hates sin and craves holiness. Repentance brings the fullness of the Holy Spirit which is the most rewarding experience a person can have.

No - it works like THIS:
- God wills the salvation of ALL people and that ALL come to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim. 2:3-4).
- God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son - that WHOSOEVER believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life (John 3:16).

It DOESN'T work like this:
Christ dies for a select few and condemns the rest to Hell. This is an invention of John Calvin - NOT a teaching from Scripture.

In other words - God's plan is for EVERYBODY to be saved - but NOT everybody will because NOT everybody will follow Him.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Gnostic promotion of salvation by works.

You keep talking about rewards as if salvation is a reward when it is not. It is a gift.

If you can earn it is not by grace.


Ephesians 2:9 New International Version (NIV)
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Exactly, and if a person thinks they were chosen, saved, converted, because God looked through time and saw they'd believe, that also denies salvation by grace, making salvation a reward, not a gift. Remember your take on Romans 8, saying things that are not in the text? That too falls under the same bad conclusion.

 

[CoreIssue]

Go declares people righteous or not...otherwise they are self-righteous. And that goes for beliefs as well as works. Anything that causes a person to justify himself....even belief in Jesus's finished work on the cross...is still just self-righteousness.

There are many excuses to justify oneself....but all of them are unwise.

More than unwise, it is foolish and falls.

Exactly, and if a person thinks they were chosen, saved, converted, because God looked through time and saw they'd believe, that also denies salvation by grace, making salvation a reward, not a gift. Remember your take on Romans 8, saying things that are not in the text? That too falls under the same bad conclusion.

Everything I said about Romans 8 is in the text. I have even quoted it.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

No - it works like THIS:
- God wills the salvation of ALL people and that ALL come to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim. 2:3-4).
- God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son - that WHOSOEVER believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life (John 3:16).

It DOESN'T work like this:
Christ dies for a select few and condemns the rest to Hell. This is an invention of John Calvin - NOT a teaching from Scripture.

In other words - God's plan is for EVERYBODY to be saved - but NOT everybody will because NOT everybody will follow Him.

Your entire ideology is built upon out of context verses (alluded to) due to your misunderstandings of God and his ways.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Everything I said about Romans 8 is in the text. I have even quoted it.

No, sorry, but it's not. But do go and show me where you've proven what you said is in there.

Do I need to go back and find your false comments on Romans 8 where you stated things not in there? I've already done it twice. You're being dishonest still?

 

[rockytopva]

James setting the record correct on works....

“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.”

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. - James 2:14-26

 

[rockytopva]

Christ Jesus setting the record correct on works...

14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. - Matthew 25:14-30

 

[BreadOfLife]

Your entire ideology is built upon out of context verses (alluded to) due to your misunderstandings of God and his ways.

No - it's based on 2000 years of teachings of the historic Christian faith.

The simple fact is that NOBODY prior to John Calvin taught this "Limited Atonement" garbage for 1500 years . . .

 

[Dave L]

No - it works like THIS:
- God wills the salvation of ALL people and that ALL come to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim. 2:3-4).
- God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son - that WHOSOEVER believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life (John 3:16).

It DOESN'T work like this:
Christ dies for a select few and condemns the rest to Hell. This is an invention of John Calvin - NOT a teaching from Scripture.

In other words - God's plan is for EVERYBODY to be saved - but NOT everybody will because NOT everybody will follow Him.

This does not hold up. Jesus told the pharisees the reason they did not believe is because he did not give his life for them. He also refused to pray for the world, but only those whom Father gave to him instead. Also he purchased the Church with his blood and no others.

 

[BreadOfLife]

This does not hold up. Jesus told the pharisees the reason they did not believe is because he did not give his life for them. He also refused to pray for the world, but only those whom Father gave to him instead. Also he purchased the Church with his blood and no others.

Please cite chapter and verse for your claims so that we can see the CONTEXT.

Context is NEVER on your side when you cherry-pick . . .

 

[Enoch111]

Limited atonement means salvation by grace. Universal atonement means salvation by works.

More baloney from the Master Chef of baloneys.

 

[Dave L]

More baloney from the Master Chef of baloneys.

Think about it as truthfully as you can. If Jesus died for all and all are not saved, he saved no one. We are back at the level of Pelagianism that preaches human endeavor is what saves. And this is not Christianity by any stretch.

 

[Dave L]

Please cite chapter and verse for your claims so that we can see the CONTEXT.

Context is NEVER on your side when you cherry-pick . . .

“I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.” (John 10:11)
“But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.” (John 10:26)

“I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.” (John 17:9)

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Limited atonement means salvation by grace. Universal atonement means salvation by works. Here’s why. Limited atonement justifies sinners who cannot save themselves leading to regeneration and holiness.

Universal atonement does not save anyone. It only makes it possible for people to justify themselves through holiness, leading to regeneration and atonement.

Limited atonement = gospel of grace apart from works. “Whoever believes has eternal life”. Universal atonement = gospel of law dependent on obedience/works. “Whoever chooses to believe earns eternal life”.

Would suggest your title is also correct in both. Limited atonement but then universal atonement through works. Maybe not as suggested but in considering only the works of God: fruit of the Spirit. Mostly works are argued and the argument itself over what flesh can do overshadows the Fruit which is not of man but of God.

“Take hold of MY strength, make peace with Me” Isaiah 27:5-6
[5] Or let him take hold of my strength, that he may make peace with me; and he shall make peace with me. [6] He shall cause them that come of Jacob to take root: Israel shall blossom and bud, and fill the face of the world with fruit.

Victory swallows up death. Is it not the fruit of the Spirit which swallows the works of the flesh? The incorruptible swallows up the corruptible. The works of the flesh must put on the fruit of the Spirit which is Life in God.

Galatians 5:22-23
[22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, [23] Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. —Victory over death.

Ephesians 5:9-10
[9] (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth[10] Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.

Works of man will come to nothing. But if it be a work of God, then no man can over throw it.

James 3:17-18
[17] But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. [18] And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

The question is do we believe peace can swallow up war? Can Life swallow up death? Can the fruit of the Spirit proving what is acceptable to God swallow up corruption and death and evil. How strong is our God? His word says God’s weakness is stronger than men’s strength.

Genesis 17:5-6
Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. [6] And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.

How did God make “thee” exceeding fruitful? It is not by flesh or the works of it but by the fruit of the Spirit which He calls “righteousness sown in peace.”

Limited atonement....universal atonement through works (fruit of the Spirit). Mercy. Another question might be why call Him Lord, Lord and have not fruit?

 

[BreadOfLife]

“I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.” (John 10:11)
“But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.” (John 10:26)

“I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.” (John 17:9)

ALL of these verses apply to the fact that God had foreknowledge of what choices WE made.
He didn't make those choices FOR us.

He STILL wills that ALL be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim. 2:3-4) - even though some have sealed their fate by rejecting Him.

 

[Dave L]

ALL of these verses apply to the fact that God had foreknowledge of what choices WE made.
He didn't make those choices FOR us.

He STILL wills that ALL be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim. 2:3-4) - even though some have sealed their fate by rejecting Him.

If God had to learn from observing us, he is not omniscient and less than perfect.

 

[BreadOfLife]

If God had to learn from observing us, he is not omniscient and less than perfect.

And if your god forces His love on you - he is a rapist who needs to coerce love out of people . . .

 

[Dave L]

And if your god forces His love on you - he is a rapist who needs to coerce love out of people . . .

Only the god of free will is a bully of this sort. Threatening you to say "uncle" or else torturing you forever. And then trying to buy you off with perks and rewards if you do submit.