Limited atonement means salvation by grace. Universal atonement means salvation by works.

[BreadOfLife]

Only the god of free will is a bully of this sort. Threatening you to say "uncle" or else torturing you forever. And then trying to buy you off with perks and rewards if you do submit.

Nope - He promises us eternal joy with Him.

YOUR God, on the other hand only created a select few to for eternal joy - and the rest just so He can toss into Hell at His pleasure.

The God of Christianity is different than YOUR god. He is not a monster who drans people kicking and screaming against their will into Heaven - NOR does he send the bulk of humanity kicking and screaming into Hell against theit will.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

Think about it as truthfully as you can. If Jesus died for all and all are not saved, he saved no one. We are back at the level of Pelagianism that preaches human endeavor is what saves. And this is not Christianity by any stretch.

Jesus did die for all but not all are worthy.

Some claim he died for all, as in that he died for the Devil to go to Heaven as well, so everyone goes to heaven regardless.

So only they who abide in the vine partake in the Vine.

 

[Enoch111]

Think about it as truthfully as you can. If Jesus died for all and all are not saved, he saved no one.

More hogwash and illogic from someone who claims to know the Bible.

Dave if you want the truth then you must believe God, not Calvin and his cohorts. So the first question which must be asked and answered from the Bible is: How are sinners saved by grace? Is it by magic or by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ?*

The answer is clearly revealed in Scripture (Romans 10):
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. [BELIEVING IN CHRIST IMPERATIVE]
5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above)
7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; [MAN'S HEART AND MOUTH INVOLVED]
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. [MAN'S HEART AND MOUTH INVOLVED]
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.[MAN'S HEART AND MOUTH INVOLVED]
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. [BELIEVING IN CHRIST IMPERATIVE]
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. [CALLING UPON THE LORD IMPERATIVE]
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. [CALLING UPON THE LORD IMPERATIVE] [WHOSOEVER MEANS ANYONE AND EVERYONE]
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? [CALLING UPON THE LORD IMPERATIVE] and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?[BELIEVING IN CHRIST IMPERATIVE] and how shall they hear without a preacher? [HEARING THE GOSPEL IMPERATIVE]
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? [PREACHING THE GOSPEL IMPERATIVE]as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. [OBEDIENCE TO THE GOSPEL IMPERATIVE] For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. [SAVING FAITH GENERATED BY THE GOSPEL]
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

So, Dave, are you prepared to abandon your unbiblical, illogical, heretical Calvinistic beliefs in view of the Word of God which REFUTES your false notions?

 

[Dave L]

More hogwash and illogic from someone who claims to know the Bible.

Dave if you want the truth then you must believe God, not Calvin and his cohorts. So the first question which must be asked and answered from the Bible is: How are sinners saved by grace? Is it by magic or by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ?*

The answer is clearly revealed in Scripture (Romans 10):
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. [BELIEVING IN CHRIST IMPERATIVE]
5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above)
7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; [MAN'S HEART AND MOUTH INVOLVED]
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. [MAN'S HEART AND MOUTH INVOLVED]
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.[MAN'S HEART AND MOUTH INVOLVED]
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. [BELIEVING IN CHRIST IMPERATIVE]
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. [CALLING UPON THE LORD IMPERATIVE]
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. [CALLING UPON THE LORD IMPERATIVE] [WHOSOEVER MEANS ANYONE AND EVERYONE]
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? [CALLING UPON THE LORD IMPERATIVE] and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?[BELIEVING IN CHRIST IMPERATIVE] and how shall they hear without a preacher? [HEARING THE GOSPEL IMPERATIVE]
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? [PREACHING THE GOSPEL IMPERATIVE]as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. [OBEDIENCE TO THE GOSPEL IMPERATIVE] For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. [SAVING FAITH GENERATED BY THE GOSPEL]
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

So, Dave, are you prepared to abandon your unbiblical, illogical, heretical Calvinistic beliefs in view of the Word of God which REFUTES your false notions?

You have a Pelagianism that out pelagianizes Pelagius. You have an atonement that does not save anyone. It only supposedly clears the way for the self-righteous to save themselves.

 

[SovereignGrace]

You have a Pelagianism that out pelagianizes Pelagius. You have an atonement that does not save anyone. It only supposedly clears the way for the self-righteous to save themselves.

Arminianism was slayed by Pelagianism.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Jesus did die for all but not all are worthy.

Some claim he died for all, as in that he died for the Devil to go to Heaven as well, so everyone goes to heaven regardless.

So only they who abide in the vine partake in the Vine.

None were worthy, let's be frank and Biblical.

 

[Waiting on him]

Let's stick to the topic and not denigrate others along with it.

The sheep in the mentioned parable didn’t know they had performed the works

 

[Phoneman777]

Limited atonement means salvation by grace. Universal atonement means salvation by works. Here’s why. Limited atonement justifies sinners who cannot save themselves leading to regeneration and holiness.

Universal atonement does not save anyone. It only makes it possible for people to justify themselves through holiness, leading to regeneration and atonement.

Limited atonement = gospel of grace apart from works. “Whoever believes has eternal life”. Universal atonement = gospel of law dependent on obedience/works. “Whoever chooses to believe earns eternal life”.

you mean like univesalism?

 

[Dave L]

you mean like univesalism?

Universalism is more logical than than universal atonement necessary for the salvation by works scheme.

 

[Phoneman777]

Universalism is more logical than than universal atonement necessary for the salvation by works scheme.

I understand that Universalists teach no one will be eternally lost

 

[Dave L]

I understand that Universalists teach no one will be eternally lost

That is how I understand it. But scripture affirms most are lost.

 

[Phoneman777]

That is how I understand it. But scripture affirms most are lost.

I agree and the saddest part is that the "most" will hear Jesus say I never knew you, depart from Me ye that break My law.

 

[Dave L]

I agree and the saddest part is that the "most" will hear Jesus say I never knew you, depart from Me ye that break My law.

This is true but we need to determine which Lawlessness he speaks of. As I understand believers always lived according to the Two Great Commandments of love for God and others. The wicked could not do this, not being born again. So God gave them the Ten Commandments forcing them to act like they loved him and others under penalty of death. But any who kept the Two Great Commandments, naturally upheld the Ten. So when Jesus fulfilled the Law on the Cross, it was the Two Great Commandments and thereby also the Ten. Believers of all time have the Two written in their hearts, but the Ten expired when God removed unbelievers from Israel after the crucifixion.

 

[Phoneman777]

This is true but we need to determine which Lawlessness he speaks of. As I understand believers always lived according to the Two Great Commandments of love for God and others. The wicked could not do this, not being born again. So God gave them the Ten Commandments forcing them to act like they loved him and others under penalty of death. But any who kept the Two Great Commandments, naturally upheld the Ten. So when Jesus fulfilled the Law on the Cross, it was the Two Great Commandments and thereby also the Ten. Believers of all time have the Two written in their hearts, but the Ten expired when God removed unbelievers from Israel after the crucifixion.

Doesn't Psalms 111:7-8 say the law God wrote with His hands will stand fast forever and ever? If so, how can it be said that the Ten Commandments are "expired"?

 

[Dave L]

Doesn't Psalms 111:7-8 say the law God wrote with His hands will stand fast forever and ever? If so, how can it be said that the Ten Commandments are "expired"?

The were not eternal. They didn't exist until Sinai.

““The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Mount Sinai. The LORD did not make this covenant with our ancestors, but with all of us who are alive today.” (Deuteronomy 5:2–3)

 

[Phoneman777]

The were not eternal. They didn't exist until Sinai.

““The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Mount Sinai. The LORD did not make this covenant with our ancestors, but with all of us who are alive today.” (Deuteronomy 5:2–3)

I'm not sure if you're addressing what I said.

Psalms 111:7-8 says that "the works of His hands are verity and judgment" and then immediately says right after "all His commandments...stand fast forever and ever.".

The only thing that God made with His hands that are associated with commandments are the Ten Commandments He wrote on stone tables; commandments so important He didn't even trust Moses to write them. There's no other way to interpret this than to say the Ten Commandments which God wrote with His hands on Sinai are eternal, right? That means it will always be sin to break any one of them...which means they are not expired, right?

 

[Dave L]

I'm not sure if you're addressing what I said.

Psalms 111:7-8 says that "the works of His hands are verity and judgment" and then immediately says right after "all His commandments...stand fast forever and ever.".

The only thing that God made with His hands that are associated with commandments are the Ten Commandments He wrote on stone tables; commandments so important He didn't even trust Moses to write them. There's no other way to interpret this than to say the Ten Commandments which God wrote with His hands on Sinai are eternal, right? That means it will always be sin to break any one of them...which means they are not expired, right?

I'm showing the temporal existence of the Ten Commandments. They were the Old Covenant, the New Covenant replaced them. They only serve as commentary and instruction but are in no way binding.

 

[Phoneman777]

I'm showing the temporal existence of the Ten Commandments. They were the Old Covenant, the New Covenant replaced them. They only serve as commentary and instruction but are in no way binding.

But if I adopt your position that the Ten Commandments are "expired", what am I supposed to do with Psalms 111:7-8 which says the exact opposite: that the commandments which God wrote with His hands - the Ten Commandments - will never expire as long as time shall last?

 

[Dave L]

But if I adopt your position that the Ten Commandments are "expired", what am I supposed to do with Psalms 111:7-8 which says the exact opposite: that the commandments which God wrote with His hands - the Ten Commandments - will never expire as long as time shall last?

The Ten Commandments had a beginning = temporal. The Two Great Commandments are eternally man's duty to God and others.

 

[Phoneman777]

The Ten Commandments had a beginning = temporal. The Two Great Commandments are eternally man's duty to God and others.

Lets concentrate on Psalms 111:7-8 which was written after Sinai, OK? Now, if Psalms 111:7-8 says the commandments which God wrote with His hands - namely the Ten Commandments on stone cut out with His hands and written with His finger - will "stand fast forever and ever and are done in truth and uprightness", then how can we say these same exact commandments which are given without an expiration date...have expired?