Limited atonement means salvation by grace. Universal atonement means salvation by works.

[Dave L]

Lets concentrate on Psalms 111:7-8 which was written after Sinai, OK? Now, if Psalms 111:7-8 says the commandments which God wrote with His hands - namely the Ten Commandments on stone cut out with His hands and written with His finger - will "stand fast forever and ever and are done in truth and uprightness", then how can we say these same exact commandments which are given without an expiration date...have expired?

Make your case. Scripture disproves it.

 

[Phoneman777]

Make your case. Scripture disproves it.

What does that mean?

 

[Dave L]

What does that mean?

It means the Ten Commandments had a beginning and an end. They ended with the crucifixion. And remain only for commentary purposes.

 

[Phoneman777]

It means the Ten Commandments had a beginning and an end. They ended with the crucifixion. And remain only for commentary purposes.

Yes, the Law of Moses had a beginning and an end, but Psalms 111:7-8 essentially says the Ten Commandments stand fast forever and ever and are done in truth and uprightness" so that means they were given without expiration, so how can they be said to have an expiration like the Law of Moses is said to have an expiration...especially when the Bible makes such a clear distinction betwenn the Ten Commandmetns and the Law of Moses?

 

[Dave L]

Yes, the Law of Moses had a beginning and an end, but Psalms 111:7-8 essentially says the Ten Commandments stand fast forever and ever and are done in truth and uprightness" so that means they were given without expiration, so how can they be said to have an expiration like the Law of Moses is said to have an expiration...especially when the Bible makes such a clear distinction betwenn the Ten Commandmetns and the Law of Moses?

Jeremiah says the New Covenant replaced the Old Covenant (Ten Commandments).

 

[Phoneman777]

Jeremiah says the New Covenant replaced the Old Covenant (Ten Commandments).

I agree with that, but the terms "Old Covenant" and "Ten Commandments" cannot possibly be synonymous, or we'd be able to use them interchangeably, which Romans 3:31 will not allow because we Christians do not "establish the Law Old Covenant".

The Old Covenant was abolished, but the components of it - the Law and Promises - are preserved in the New Covenant, but with better promises because they are no longer ours but God's promises.

Therefore, I agree 100% with you that the Old Covenant is passed away, but neither God's promises nor His Ten Commandments have passed, as evidenced by Psalms 111:7-8......and WADR your arguments have not harmonized that verse and I have to respectfully say until that verse no longer contradicts your conclusion --- that the law which God wrote with His own hands has expired --- I must urge you to revisit the issue until Psalms 111:7-8 does not contradict your findings. Peace.

 

[Dave L]

I agree with that, but the terms "Old Covenant" and "Ten Commandments" cannot possibly be synonymous, or we'd be able to use them interchangeably, which Romans 3:31 will not allow because we Christians do not "establish the Law Old Covenant".

The Old Covenant was abolished, but the components of it - the Law and Promises - are preserved in the New Covenant, but with better promises because they are no longer ours but God's promises.

Therefore, I agree 100% with you that the Old Covenant is passed away, but neither God's promises nor His Ten Commandments have passed, as evidenced by Psalms 111:7-8......and WADR your arguments have not harmonized that verse and I have to respectfully say until that verse no longer contradicts your conclusion --- that the law which God wrote with His own hands has expired --- I must urge you to revisit the issue until Psalms 111:7-8 does not contradict your findings. Peace.

The Ten Commandments were the Old Covenant. Consider the following;

“And He (God) wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.” Exodus 34:28

“And He declared unto you His covenant, which He commanded you to perform, even the Ten Commandments.” Deuteronomy 4:13:

“When I was gone up into the mount to receive the tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant.” Deuteronomy 9:9:

“So I turned and came down from the mount . . . and the two tables of the covenant were in my two hands.” Deuteronomy 9:15:

“There was nothing in the ark save the two tables of stone which Moses put there at Horeb, when Jehovah made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt,” I Kings 8:9

“And there have I set a place for the ark, wherein is the covenant of Jehovah, which he made with our fathers, when he brought them out of the land of Egypt.” I Kings 8:21

The second of these two texts is repeated in II Chronicles 6:11.

Consider “The ark of the covenant” that held the Ten Commandments (Numbers 10:33; Jeremiah 3:16, and other places)

Also; “It contained the golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered entirely with gold. In this ark were the golden urn containing the manna, Aaron’s rod that budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant.” (Hebrews 9:4) (NET)

 

[Waiting on him]

This is true but we need to determine which Lawlessness he speaks of. As I understand believers always lived according to the Two Great Commandments of love for God and others. The wicked could not do this, not being born again. So God gave them the Ten Commandments forcing them to act like they loved him and others under penalty of death. But any who kept the Two Great Commandments, naturally upheld the Ten. So when Jesus fulfilled the Law on the Cross, it was the Two Great Commandments and thereby also the Ten. Believers of all time have the Two written in their hearts, but the Ten expired when God removed unbelievers from Israel after the crucifixion.

The goats in the mentioned parable, are proclaiming their good works.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

None were worthy, let's be frank and Biblical.

Nonsense !
No one is worthy to be a Christian then ! or even able to go to Heaven, as all go to Hell if they are not worthy, as Jesus says that he never knew you. so he is saying that such are not worthy.

So yes some are worthy of Jesus Christ and not all.

Satan and all his followers are going to Hell. now let's be frank about that.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Nonsense !
No one is worthy to be a Christian then ! or even able to go to Heaven, as all go to Hell if they are not worthy, as Jesus says that he never knew you. so he is saying that such are not worthy.

So yes some are worthy of Jesus Christ and not all.

Satan and all his followers are going to Hell. now let's be frank about that.

Well, congrats, you did it! You were found worthy!

The rest of us poor wretches that received grace which is favor not merited, well, we'll all look up to you in heaven where you'll be seated next to God.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

Well, congrats, you did it! You were found worthy!

The rest of us poor wretches that received grace which is favor not merited, well, we'll all look up to you in heaven where you'll be seated next to God.

Does everyone receive Grace then in your opinion ?
I would say that no one knows Grace but for the truly Born Again, just believing or blind faith just does not cut it.

We will see you letting in Satan and his lot in the back door then.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

I agree with that, but the terms "Old Covenant" and "Ten Commandments" cannot possibly be synonymous, or we'd be able to use them interchangeably, which Romans 3:31 will not allow because we Christians do not "establish the Law Old Covenant".

The Old Covenant was abolished, but the components of it - the Law and Promises - are preserved in the New Covenant, but with better promises because they are no longer ours but God's promises.

Therefore, I agree 100% with you that the Old Covenant is passed away, but neither God's promises nor His Ten Commandments have passed, as evidenced by Psalms 111:7-8......and WADR your arguments have not harmonized that verse and I have to respectfully say until that verse no longer contradicts your conclusion --- that the law which God wrote with His own hands has expired --- I must urge you to revisit the issue until Psalms 111:7-8 does not contradict your findings. Peace.

I agree.

If anyone rejects the commandments they are of Satan and I know of such want the words to disappear as if God just did such as just a joke.
What God put forward is not a joke, it's just changed as we are not under the Law but under Grace because Jesus finished them of with two more that are above all and when seen from that perspective we can see the merit has not vanished, it's just not under the law, it's changed like the Water into wine one could say.

Who could reject the first Commandment ? anyone who try's that has to be of Satan and it's the same as with all the rest.
So the authority still stands as they are Gods words.

Now wonder the Jews despise totally what they perceive as Christians and say that Christians are all just niggers or just Cattle to them as the word Goyim means just that.

The Jew would not listen to anyone who rejected the Commandments for one second.
Fact is they thought that Jesus was rejecting the Commandments, but Jesus said not one jot against it. as he only completed it as Holy Moses said of him was to come. the icing on the cake one could say, she is finished off as it should truly be, as before Christ Jesus she was just a Blueprint no.
She is grace to behold in this way.
Before she was just dead works that was a Blueprint to be lead that way until to the coming of Gods Son.

 

[Phoneman777]

I agree.

If anyone rejects the commandments they are of Satan and I know of such want the words to disappear as if God just did such as just a joke.
What God put forward is not a joke, it's just changed as we are not under the Law but under Grace because Jesus finished them of with two more that are above all and when seen from that perspective we can see the merit has not vanished, it's just not under the law, it's changed like the Water into wine one could say.

Who could reject the first Commandment ? anyone who try's that has to be of Satan and it's the same as with all the rest.
So the authority still stands as they are Gods words.

Now wonder the Jews despise totally what they perceive as Christians and say that Christians are all just niggers or just Cattle to them as the word Goyim means just that.

The Jew would not listen to anyone who rejected the Commandments for one second.
Fact is they thought that Jesus was rejecting the Commandments, but Jesus said not one jot against it. as he only completed it as Holy Moses said of him was to come. the icing on the cake one could say, she is finished off as it should truly be, as before Christ Jesus she was just a Blueprint no.
She is grace to behold in this way.
Before she was just dead works that was a Blueprint to be lead that way until to the coming of Gods Son.

Exactly. We aren't saved by works, but we'll be judged by them because our works are the evidence we've been saved by grace.

 

[Phoneman777]

Well, congrats, you did it! You were found worthy!

The rest of us poor wretches that received grace which is favor not merited, well, we'll all look up to you in heaven where you'll be seated next to God.

Not one person will be covered by God's grace if they refuse to confess and be empowered by the Holy Spirit to forsake (stop commiting) sin:

"He that covereth his sins shall not prosper, but whosoever confesseth and forsaketh his sin shall have mercy."

 

[Phoneman777]

The Ten Commandments were the Old Covenant. Consider the following; “And He (God) wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.” Exodus 34:28

In the English language, words matter. The Ten Commandments were the "words of", which preposition "of" indicates that those "words" - the Ten Commandments - are a component of the whole (the Old Covenant) - not the whole itself.

“And He declared unto you His covenant, which He commanded you to perform, even the Ten Commandments.” Deuteronomy 4:13:

Again, you're taking a verse intended to convey to the people what was on their part of the Covenant to perform and falsely interpreting/twisting the verse to mean their part was the entirety of Covenant itself, while ignoring that both the Bible and common sense knowledge tells us that any Covenant consists of two components - the two mutually agreed upon promises of action by the two parties entering into one.

The part of the people: obey God's commandments.
The part of God: bless the people.

“When I was gone up into the mount to receive the tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant.” Deuteronomy 9:9: “So I turned and came down from the mount . . . and the two tables of the covenant were in my two hands.” Deuteronomy 9:15:

Again, that little preposition "of" indicates the Ten Commandments were a component of, not the entirety of.

“There was nothing in the ark save the two tables of stone which Moses put there at Horeb, when Jehovah made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt,” I Kings 8:9
“And there have I set a place for the ark, wherein is the covenant of Jehovah, which he made with our fathers, when he brought them out of the land of Egypt.” I Kings 8:21

The second of these two texts is repeated in II Chronicles 6:11.
Consider “The ark of the covenant” that held the Ten Commandments (Numbers 10:33; Jeremiah 3:16, and other places)
Also; “It contained the golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered entirely with gold. In this ark were the golden urn containing the manna, Aaron’s rod that budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant.” (Hebrews 9:4) (NET)

Nothing here indicates the two tables are the entirety of the Old Covenant.

SEE WHAT I DID THERE, DAVY? I WENT THROUGH EACH OF YOUR "PROOF" TEXTS AND SHOWED HOW NOT A SINGLE ONE INDICATES THE TEN COMMANDMENTS OR THE TABLES UPON WHICH THEY WERE WRITTEN ARE THE TOTALITY OF THE OLD COVENANT, BUT ARE ONE OF THE TWO COMPONENTS OF THE OLD COVENANT, WHICH WAS THE PROMISE OF OBEDIENCE TO THE TEN COMMANDMENTS BY THE PEOPLE AND THE PROMISE OF GOD TO BLESS THEM WHICH GOD MADE.

THE REASON WHY THERE'S NO VERSE TELLING GOD WHAT WAS HIS PART TO PERFORM IS BECAUSE ONLY A FOOL WOULD THINK HE'D REQUIRE IT.

 

[Dave L]

In the English language, words matter. The Ten Commandments were the "words of", which preposition "of" indicates that those "words" - the Ten Commandments - are a component of the whole (the Old Covenant) - not the whole itself.
Again, you're taking a verse intended to convey to the people what was on their part of the Covenant to perform and falsely interpreting/twisting the verse to mean their part was the entirety of Covenant itself, while ignoring that both the Bible and common sense knowledge tells us that any Covenant consists of two components - the two mutually agreed upon promises of action by the two parties entering into one.

The part of the people: obey God's commandments.
The part of God: bless the people.

Again, that little preposition "of" indicates the Ten Commandments were a component of, not the entirety of.
Nothing here indicates the two tables are the entirety of the Old Covenant.

SEE WHAT I DID THERE, DAVY? I WENT THROUGH EACH OF YOUR "PROOF" TEXTS AND SHOWED HOW NOT A SINGLE ONE INDICATES THE TEN COMMANDMENTS OR THE TABLES UPON WHICH THEY WERE WRITTEN ARE THE TOTALITY OF THE OLD COVENANT, BUT ARE ONE OF THE TWO COMPONENTS OF THE OLD COVENANT, WHICH WAS THE PROMISE OF OBEDIENCE TO THE TEN COMMANDMENTS BY THE PEOPLE AND THE PROMISE OF GOD TO BLESS THEM.

You are rejecting the New Covenant by hanging on to the Ten Commandments. Nor do you keep them. You do not keep the Sabbath but want everyone else to pretend to keep it as you do.

 

[Dave L]

I agree.

If anyone rejects the commandments they are of Satan and I know of such want the words to disappear as if God just did such as just a joke.
What God put forward is not a joke, it's just changed as we are not under the Law but under Grace because Jesus finished them of with two more that are above all and when seen from that perspective we can see the merit has not vanished, it's just not under the law, it's changed like the Water into wine one could say.

Who could reject the first Commandment ? anyone who try's that has to be of Satan and it's the same as with all the rest.
So the authority still stands as they are Gods words.

Now wonder the Jews despise totally what they perceive as Christians and say that Christians are all just niggers or just Cattle to them as the word Goyim means just that.

The Jew would not listen to anyone who rejected the Commandments for one second.
Fact is they thought that Jesus was rejecting the Commandments, but Jesus said not one jot against it. as he only completed it as Holy Moses said of him was to come. the icing on the cake one could say, she is finished off as it should truly be, as before Christ Jesus she was just a Blueprint no.
She is grace to behold in this way.
Before she was just dead works that was a Blueprint to be lead that way until to the coming of Gods Son.

If you can believe the Ten Commandments were not the Old Covenant in view of the scripture I posted, and that the New Covenant did not replace them according to Jeremiah, you are rewriting scripture to suit your agenda.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

If you can believe the Ten Commandments were not the Old Covenant in view of the scripture I posted, and that the New Covenant did not replace them according to Jeremiah, you are rewriting scripture to suit your agenda.

The New Covenant has changed just as the water changed into wine. it's totally different to what it was and God does not do something for nothing.
The Jews have gone, that is finished as to God 2000 years ago, they were just as a blueprint for the NT, such is finished and we are not under the Law but under Grace, but sadly nowadays many claiming to be Christians want to be under the Law now and have rejected Jesus Christ and are looking to the Talmud whore, who they think are the Jews.

The OT is a blueprint and Christians use the OT as their blueprint and it's the same religion only that it's moved forward evolved as to Christ Jesus, as all who understand that he is the Holy Temple.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I agree with that, but the terms "Old Covenant" and "Ten Commandments" cannot possibly be synonymous, or we'd be able to use them interchangeably, which Romans 3:31 will not allow because we Christians do not "establish the Law Old Covenant".

The Old Covenant was abolished, but the components of it - the Law and Promises - are preserved in the New Covenant, but with better promises because they are no longer ours but God's promises.

Therefore, I agree 100% with you that the Old Covenant is passed away, but neither God's promises nor His Ten Commandments have passed, as evidenced by Psalms 111:7-8......and WADR your arguments have not harmonized that verse and I have to respectfully say until that verse no longer contradicts your conclusion --- that the law which God wrote with His own hands has expired --- I must urge you to revisit the issue until Psalms 111:7-8 does not contradict your findings. Peace.

Very odd, isn't it, to hear a man say "you must not murder" is now just commentary?

And especially since God leads me and causes me to understand that even anger in my heart is to have already murdered.

The response to understanding this should be, have mercy on me, a sinner. But instead the response is to...lower the bar so one can jump over it?

It's so bizarre to me.

 

[Dave L]

Very odd, isn't it, to hear a man say "you must not murder" is now just commentary?

And especially since God leads me and causes me to understand that even anger in my heart is to have already murdered.

The response to understanding this should be, have mercy on me, a sinner. But instead the response is to...lower the bar so one can jump over it?

It's so bizarre to me.

If you need to be told not to murder, you cannot be trusted. The law was for kidnappers, murderers, cheats and the like.

“Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;” (1 Timothy 1:9–10)