Limited atonement means salvation by grace. Universal atonement means salvation by works.

[Dave L]

Limited atonement means salvation by grace. Universal atonement means salvation by works. Here’s why. Limited atonement justifies sinners who cannot save themselves leading to regeneration and holiness.

Universal atonement does not save anyone. It only makes it possible for people to justify themselves through holiness, leading to regeneration and atonement.

Limited atonement = gospel of grace apart from works. “Whoever believes has eternal life”. Universal atonement = gospel of law dependent on obedience/works. “Whoever chooses to believe earns eternal life”.

 

[Episkopos]

Limited atonement means salvation by grace. Universal atonement means salvation by works. Here’s why. Limited atonement justifies sinners who cannot save themselves leading to regeneration and holiness.

Universal atonement does not save anyone. It only makes it possible for people to justify themselves through holiness, leading to regeneration and atonement.

Limited atonement = gospel of grace apart from works. “Whoever believes has eternal life”. Universal atonement = gospel of law dependent on obedience/works. “Whoever chooses to believe earns eternal life”.

The funny thing here is that your title is right. There is personal grace...what you call limited atonement. This is a gift of God and comes with a calling to holinessAnd there is universal grace, or what you call universal atonement, that depend on works...towards the brethren. This is the call to righteousness in all the world inspired by the holiness of the brethren.

I am not surprised that you would speak the truth but not realize it.

An example of universal grace ...or what I call "trickle down grace" is the Mat. 25 sheep/goats judgment....where the sheep are justified by their good works towards the brethren of Christ. As in ... inasmuch as you DID it to the least of these My brethren.

Now if you are willing to look at this without becoming fanatical in your inability to read...I will discuss this further...otherwise I leave you to rant on by yourself in the obscuring of the plain text of the bible.

 

[Dave L]

The funny thing here is that your title is right. There is personal grace...what you call limited atonement. This is a gift of God and comes with a calling to holinessAnd there is universal grace, or what you call universal atonement, that depend on works...towards the brethren. This is the call to righteousness in all the world inspired by the holiness of the brethren.

I am not surprised that you would speak the truth but not realize it.

An example of universal grace ...or what I call "trickle down grace" is the Mat. 25 sheep/goats judgment....where the sheep are justified by their good works towards the brethren of Christ. As in ... inasmuch as you DID it to the least of these My brethren.

Now if you are willing to look at this without becoming fanatical in your inability to read...I will discuss this further...otherwise I leave you to rant on by yourself in the obscuring of the plain text of the bible.

What you are missing is the power of the atonement that saves all for whom God intended. There is no common grace or any other kind of grace.

 

[Episkopos]

What you are missing is the power of the atonement that saves all for whom God intended. There is no common grace or any other kind of grace.

You ignored my post to continue with your enslavement to a doctrinal stance. Are you here to display a doctrinal stance? Or do you discuss the validity of the biblical texts along with their meaning?

I know you have shifted doctrines before, as you have previously stated....but you are not learning anything by this. You are simply shifting from one doctrinal foxhole to the other. That is to miss the point entirely. it is better to remain unbound by doctrinal limitations and engage the text to discover a truth that is beyond the grasp of any one doctrinal position.

God moves in and out of things. No position can describe God's ways. God is free and wants us to have His freedom.
Few people have discovered this...preferring to trust in the ways of men and their dogmatic reasoning. As you do in spades.

But God would not be God unless he confounded the wisdom of the wise. You will never tie God down to a set of repetitive structural truisms.

Of course you will ignore all this commentary as it is not in any doctrinal position that you can program into a static mindset. You will reject this wisdom.

The truth sets us free however.

 

[Dave L]

You ignored my post to continue with your enslavement to a doctrinal stance. Are you here to display a doctrinal stance? Or do you discuss the validity of the biblical texts along with their meaning?

I know you have shifted doctrines before, as you have previously stated....but you are not learning anything by this. You are simply shifting from one doctrinal foxhole to the other. That is to miss the point entirely. it is better to remain unbound by doctrinal limitations and engage the text to discover a truth that is beyond the grasp of any one doctrinal position.

God moves in and out of things. No position can describe God's ways. God is free and wants us to have His freedom.
Few people have discovered this...preferring to trust in the ways of men and their dogmatic reasoning. As you do in spades.

But God would not be God unless he confounded the wisdom of the wise. You will never tie God down to a set of repetitive structural truisms.

Of course you will ignore all this commentary as it is not in any doctrinal position that you can program into a static mindset. You will reject this wisdom.

The truth sets us free however.

If you could cut the "put downs" and talk simple theology, we might get somewhere.......

 

[Episkopos]

If you could cut the "put downs" and talk simple theology, we might get somewhere.......

LOL...if the shoe fits...

 

[Dave L]

LOL...if the shoe fits...

Let's stick to the topic and not denigrate others along with it.

 

[Episkopos]

Let's stick to the topic and not denigrate others along with it.

OK I agree with your title to the OP

Limited atonement means salvation by grace.

Amen.

Universal atonement means salvation by works.


Amen.

I agree with both of these statements. It takes spiritual insight to see that both of these are part of what makes the truth.

 

[CoreIssue]

OK I agree with your title to the OP

Limited atonement means salvation by grace.

Amen.

Universal atonement means salvation by works.


Amen.

I agree with both of these statements. It takes spiritual insight to see that both of these are part of what makes the truth.

There is no work you can do to gain salvation.

Salvation is all or nothing.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

OK I agree with your title to the OP

Limited atonement means salvation by grace.

Amen.

Universal atonement means salvation by works.


Amen.

I agree with both of these statements. It takes spiritual insight to see that both of these are part of what makes the truth.

Hey friend, Universal atonement can also mean the false doctrine of Universalism - God saves everybody in mankind no matter what you believe or do. There is no hell. But Dave is not talking about that doctrine.

The "works" of this universal atonement calls our faith in Christ as a work. Also, following Christ and obeying his words and doing them is works. Calvinism has God looking at His predetermined list of those He chooses to save, and gives them His Spirit, and then saving faith is a fruit of the Spirit that we awakens to save them. Of course, that means, in this twisted version of God He has prepared another list He vengefully withholds salvation from. So much for it is not God's will that any should perish!

 

[CoreIssue]

Hey friend, Universal atonement can also mean the false doctrine of Universalism - God saves everybody in mankind no matter what you believe or do. There is no hell. But Dave is not talking about that doctrine.

The "works" of this universal atonement calls our faith in Christ as a work. Also, following Christ and obeying his words and doing them is works. Calvinism has God looking at His predetermined list of those He chooses to save, and gives them His Spirit, and then saving faith is a fruit of the Spirit that we awakens to save them. Of course, that means, in this twisted version of God He has prepared another list He vengefully withholds salvation from. So much for it is not God's will that any should perish!

Be careful not to confuse limited and universal atonement with limited and universal salvation.

 

[Episkopos]

Hey friend, Universal atonement can also mean the false doctrine of Universalism - God saves everybody in mankind no matter what you believe or do. There is no hell. But Dave is not talking about that doctrine.

The "works" of this universal atonement calls our faith in Christ as a work. Also, following Christ and obeying his words and doing them is works. Calvinism has God looking at His predetermined list of those He chooses to save, and gives them His Spirit, and then saving faith is a fruit of the Spirit that we awakens to save them. Of course, that means, in this twisted version of God He has prepared another list He vengefully withholds salvation from. So much for it is not God's will that any should perish!

The truth is that God is far more merciful than Calvanists are.

There are few saints...but many righteous. Even a cup of cold water....

God has made it that a little bit of holiness in His people produces much glory for God in the making of many righteous.

The sacrifice of Jesus was not just for a tiny number. Although the saints be few indeed.

 

[farouk]

Hey friend, Universal atonement can also mean the false doctrine of Universalism -

The Gospel does indeed have necessary, factual content, Scripturally.

 

[Dave L]

The truth is that God is far more merciful than Calvanists are.

There are few saints...but many righteous. Even a cup of cold water....

God has made it that a little bit of holiness in His people produces much glory for God in the making of many righteous.

The sacrifice of Jesus was not just for a tiny number. Although the saints be few indeed.

Why aren't all saved if Jesus paid for their sins? How do you get around salvation by works claiming this?

 

[Episkopos]

Why aren't all saved if Jesus paid for their sins? How do you get around salvation by works claiming this?

By their fruit. Read the bible without prejudice and you will see that God rewards even a cup of cold water... He accepts those who accept His people...He saves those who care for others.

God is righteous.

 

[Dave L]

By their fruit. Read the bible without prejudice and you will see that God rewards even a cup of cold water... He accepts those who accept His people...He saves those who care for others.

God is righteous.

= salvation by works exclusively for the self-righteous. Real Christians do these things because God saved them and they give thanks through their actions.

 

[CoreIssue]

By their fruit. Read the bible without prejudice and you will see that God rewards even a cup of cold water... He accepts those who accept His people...He saves those who care for others.

God is righteous.

Gnostic promotion of salvation by works.

You keep talking about rewards as if salvation is a reward when it is not. It is a gift.

If you can earn it is not by grace.


Ephesians 2:9 New International Version (NIV)
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

 

[Episkopos]

= salvation by works exclusively for the self-righteous. Real Christians do these things because God saved them and they give thanks through their actions.

God decides who is righteous not you...you will have to get off your throne of judgment to see that however.

 

[Dave L]

God decides who is righteous not you...you will have to get off your throne of judgment to see that however.

God makes people righteous. If they do instead, it is self=righteousness.

 

[Episkopos]

God makes people righteous. If they do instead, it is self=righteousness.

Go declares people righteous or not...otherwise they are self-righteous. And that goes for beliefs as well as works. Anything that causes a person to justify himself....even belief in Jesus's finished work on the cross...is still just self-righteousness.

There are many excuses to justify oneself....but all of them are unwise.