Luke 14:15-24 Rapture Before Great Tribulation

[bbyrd009]

And the NT and OT are in agreement that there will be a removal of the righteous before the Great Tribulation.

this is because the righteous are smart enough to have followed Christ's instruction to leave the world, and not because of some mass event that violates Scripture in other places, give no thought for the morrow, won't come by observation, etc, i could give you 50 prolly

 

[bbyrd009]

great way to avoid responsibility for today though, i guess

Understand I AM
and leave "Rapture" to...those to whom that appeals
babies do not come from storks, either, no biggie

 

[bbyrd009]

Not that oracles are any less popular today than they ever were, i guess

our preoccupation with sports that generate "statistics" is a reflection of this, i guess

statistics being the most acceptable way to "predict the future," what every deceived person craves

 

[ScottA]

ah, well the prob there is, Jesus went right back to Jerusalem, so this "not having been received by Israel" has yet to commence at that point,

1After this, a Jewish festival took place, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.

John 5, quite early in His ministry iow. The 5000 have not even been fed yet

Your point is mute. The whole point is that Jesus was speaking to the problem and consequence of Israel not receiving Him. So, whether He was finished with every sect or not, the fact that He was already speaking of consequences was enough to show that it was a problem.

 

[ScottA]

But Jesus wasn't talking about the gospel in how one enters into the kingdom of heaven, but about how His people, saved believers, will not eat in the kingdom of Heaven because they love their lives more on earth. Jesus was answering the man's statement about how those are blessed for eating in the kingdom of heaven. Not about entering, but eating; hence the Marriage Supper is the King's Supper.

I can only hope the Lord will reveal that to you in His own time as He was talking about that rapture again in those other references in the next 4 posts from that OP in why BELIEVERS are to be not only ready to be found abiding in Him but be willing to leave or else.

You are missing the point, and it is obvious that the reason, is that you are fixated on the "believers" with the idea that He was speaking to or about the "other fold" of the gentiles...when He was not, but was speaking to and about those to whom He was sent, which was only Israel. Therefore, the consequences He spoke of in parable were only regarding Israel.

You are mixing things that even He himself did not mix, but made it very clear, stating, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

 

[bbyrd009]

Your point is mute. The whole point is that Jesus was speaking to the problem and consequence of Israel not receiving Him. So, whether He was finished with every sect or not, the fact that He was already speaking of consequences was enough to show that it was a problem.

well if i have a point, it is that i see a lot of doctrine being assumed by what Christ said, rather than what He did, and so i would have to get a more precise def of what you mean by "Israel." I'm sure you have noted the "2 gospels" thing going around, or the "James is not for you" stuff, and i suspect these of being built on misinterpreting what Christ said, and ignoring what He did (that contrasts what He said)

 

[bbyrd009]

Therefore, the consequences He spoke of in parable were only regarding Israel.

You are mixing things that even He himself did not mix, but made it very clear, stating, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

ya, like that. You have to accept that you are not of Israel in order to hold this perspective, right; but Scripture does not agree imo, and neither do Christ's actions

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

I will give you one passage form the OT that confirms a removal of the righteous, or "rapture", though I could give you several more form the OT. Virtually all of Isaiah 26, which I suggest one starts at v1, but especially....

Isaiah 26:19-21 (NKJV) Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.

And contrast verse 20 with John 14:2....

John 14:2 (NKJV) In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Chambers in the Isaiah passage and Mansions in the John passage have equivalent meanings from the Hebrew and Greek.

Notice that it is not during or after the Lord punishes the earth and those who have rejected Him, but before.

I was in a Bible study at one time that pointed out a reference that when the order is given out to build the Temple which would be part of the peace treaty in being put in action, that was the beginning of the great tribulation.

Daniel 9: 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Now it is true that the Great Tribulation is indeed the second 3.5 years of the 70th week of Daniel, so one might be able to quibble a little over whether a removal is pre 70th week or mid 70th week, but there is no room for putting the removal after the mid point. But many passages in both the OT and NT would suggest a pre-70th week. Phrases like "thief in the night" and such that would suggest no prior warning about the removal. And other verses that suggest that the removal or departure must occur before the False Messiah can be revealed. And he has to be revealed early in the 70th week to confirm the covenant with Israel so that he will later break it at the mid point of that 7 years or 70th week.

The warning given to the church at Thyatira in Revelation would suggest prior to the seven year period when unrepentant believers are cast into the "bed" of the great tribulation. Post #5 on Jesus's warning to the believers not abiding in Him in Luke 12:40-49 where the consequences would have them cut off with the believers in facing that fire coming on the earth would also depict the fiery cataclysm that would serve as a catalyst for the coming great tribulation wherein the hour of temptation will try all remaining on the earth after the 3 angels gives their messages everywhere. Everyone will know the gospel, everyone will know of the third of the earth calamity, and everyone will know the consequence for taking the mark of the beast; the lake of fire; so no one is without excuse.

The obvious threat to the Jewish people will become known halfway thru that great tribulation, but that is not to say that the period between the rapture and that moment was not the great tribulation, it was a part of it. It just got worse halfway thru it for the majority of the Jewish people that may not be all believers until they see the King of kings return Whom they had pierced.

And there is a minimum of 3 distinct rapture events between Yeshua's resurrection (not one of these) and the end.

I believe that there is 3 harvests that makes up the whole of the kingdom of God before Christ gives the kingdom back to the Father.

Matthew 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

So the firstfruits of the resurrection at the pre trib; they that be Christ as in left behind unrepentant saints and new believers coming out of the great tribulation, and the final harvest of those remaining loyal to Christ after Satan's last stage rebellion in coming out of the pit after a thousand years.

And there are other references in the Psalms, Zechariah, Zephaniah, etc. Decidedly more passages in the OT than in the NT regarding the removal of the righteous. But then there are more passages about all of these things, including the 1000 year reign of Messiah, in the OT that one can ever find in the NT, including Revelation. Of the 404 verses in Revelation, there are over 800 references to OT passages. And yet, very few people actually take the time to do their end times research from the OT.

Imagine, dismissing 2/3rds of the Bible in researching end times. Not surprising really. Sad, but not surprising.

Naysayers that speak against pre trib rapture usually assume that those for it just read a book about it as if it was taught by man rather than what scripture has to say about it. It may be so for some believers, but it hasn't been for you and me. If they ever get around to addressing posts #1-5 in why Jesus is not talking about the same thing, I reckon they will keep assuming this topic as not having any basis in scripture at all because they still think it was taught by some man.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

You are missing the point, and it is obvious that the reason, is that you are fixated on the "believers" with the idea that He was speaking to or about the "other fold" of the gentiles...when He was not, but was speaking to and about those to whom He was sent, which was only Israel. Therefore, the consequences He spoke of in parable were only regarding Israel.

You are mixing things that even He himself did not mix, but made it very clear, stating, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

But you are mixing that with the 2 parables in Luke 14:15-35 regarding that future event for eating in the Kingdom of Heaven for why the cost of discipleship is why many believers will not want to leave this life when the Bridegroom comes.

Go over the first five posts as each have a reference to Him talking about that event for why Jesus is warning believers to be ready for, because it is not a given that all believers will be taken to attend the Marriage Supper in His honor in Heaven.

 

[ScottA]

ya, like that. You have to accept that you are not of Israel in order to hold this perspective, right; but Scripture does not agree imo, and neither do Christ's actions

Okay, but then why did He say it? Which I say rhetorically, because it is not one or the other that is true, but both what He said and what He did are true. And if the conflict or appear to contradict, it is not because He is wrong, but because our understanding is wrong.

This, is a matter of rightly dividing the word. If He has separated the two "folds", then we must also, and mixing them can only result in error.

 

[ScottA]

But you are mixing that with the 2 parables in Luke 14:15-35 regarding that future event for eating in the Kingdom of Heaven for why the cost of discipleship is why many believers will not want to leave this life when the Bridegroom comes.

Go over the first five posts as each have a reference to Him talking about that event for why Jesus is warning believers to be ready for, because it is not a given that all believers will be taken to attend the Marriage Supper in His honor in Heaven.

No, I am not mixing, but telling you that you have the timing incorrect.

You are assuming that He spoke of the future...but I am not.

I am saying that He spoke to and of Israel about what was happening right then (and "quickly" thereafter). Only then does Jesus go on to the "other fold" of gentile believers. But during those times He only eluded to the times of the gentiles, otherwise His mission was only Israel.

 

[bbyrd009]

Okay, but then why did He say it? Which I say rhetorically, because it is not one or the other that is true, but both what He said and what He did are true. And if the conflict or appear to contradict, it is not because He is wrong, but because our understanding is wrong.

This, is a matter of rightly dividing the word. If He has separated the two "folds", then we must also, and mixing them can only result in error.

It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.

this tells me that one's def of Israel, who is of Israel, will determine there.
as to "many rooms," imo this is a further acknowledgement that "those who do the right things are the righteous ones," and one's religion is irrelevant to God

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

No, I am not mixing, but telling you that you have the timing incorrect.

You are assuming that He spoke of the future...but I am not.

I am saying that He spoke to and of Israel about what was happening right then (and "quickly" thereafter). Only then does Jesus go on to the "other fold" of gentile believers. But during those times He only eluded to the times of the gentiles, otherwise His mission was only Israel.

Then let Him prove to you that He was speaking of the future because of what the guy was talking about.... the future in being in the kingdom of heaven and eating.

Luke 14:15 And when one of them that sat at meat with him heard these things, he said unto him, Blessed is he that shall eat bread in the kingdom of God. 16 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:

 

[OzSpen]

There is tribulation which we are going through right now, and there is great tribulation that has not happened yet.

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

JiF,

Please read that one verse in context. Here it is:

19 How awful it will be in those days for pregnant women! How awful for nursing mothers! 20 Pray that you will not have to escape in winter or on the Sabbath day. 21 There will be terrible suffering in those days. It will be worse than any other from the beginning of the world until now. And there will never be anything like it again.

22 “If the time had not been cut short, no one would live. But because of God’s chosen people, it will be shortened. 23 At that time someone may say to you, ‘Look! Here is the Messiah!’ Or, ‘There he is!’ Do not believe it. 24 False messiahs and false prophets will appear. They will do great signs and miracles. They will try to fool God’s chosen people if possible (Matt 24:19-24 NIRV).

So this Great Tribulation of which v. 21 speaks happens with God's people, the elect, still here on earth. The biblical evidence points to the elect people of God suffering 'terrible suffering' in the Great Trib. It is to be so severe that there never has been anything like it since the beginning of the world.

It will be worse then Hitler's Holocaust, Stalin's and Mao's genocides, 911, and the 2 World Wars. If there is another world war, it will be horrific because of the heavy military and air-force, with nuclear bombs.

The important issue for evangelical Christians is that there is no whisking them out before the Gt Trib. They will go right through it. That's why I consider the pre-trib rapture gives people false hope.

See a refutation of the pre-tribulation rapture HERE.

Oz

 

[Copperhead]

I believe that there is 3 harvests that makes up the whole of the kingdom of God before Christ gives the kingdom back to the Father.

Matthew 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

So the firstfruits of the resurrection at the pre trib; they that be Christ as in left behind unrepentant saints and new believers coming out of the great tribulation, and the final harvest of those remaining loyal to Christ after Satan's last stage rebellion in coming out of the pit after a thousand years.

Yeshua went out of His way many times to point us to the Harvest. Since God is a stickler for details, and the feast days of Leviticus 23 are fulfilled in Yeshua's first and second coming, the harvest prescription outlined in Leviticus 23 must also be in play.

While Yeshua is indeed the first fruits of the resurrection (1Cor 15:20) it is those saints that were resurrected shortly after Yeshua's resurrection that I believe are the first fruits of the harvest (Lev 23) (Mat 27:52). Many folks tend to overlook these resurrected saints. They are considered saints, unlike Lazarus, Jairus' daughter, etc that were resurrected by Yeshua before His death. Keep in mind that Yeshua told Mary not to cling to Him because He had not yet ascended to the Father. As our High Priest, He was required to remain ceremonially pure until He had delivered the sheaf offering of the first fruits to the Father (Lev 23). Yeshua was not a sheaf or bundle. The resurrected saints were. And many early Christian writers concur with this conclusion. Ignatius (a contemporary of the Apostle John), Iranaeus (a contemporary of Polycarp, a disciple of John), Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, and others.

Next off would be the removal of the righteous before or near the beginning of the 70th week of Daniel (7 years). That would be the ingathering harvest which follows after the first fruits harvest. It is the main part of the harvest that occurs during the season. This one is the removal that most folks think of, at least pre-trib folks.

Again, referring to Lev 23, there is the residual gleaning harvest that is done incrementally after the main harvest. it is done not all at once, but incrementally. This would be at least two and probably more righteous removals, or "raptures", DURING the 70th week of Daniel. We know that the two witnesses are killed, resurrected, and are raptured out of there at the mid week. (Rev 11) The multitude (gleanings again) of those coming out of the tribulation period (Rev 7). And this is all still not at the final end of the Great Tribulation.

It could be that the 144,000 that are seen at the throne (Rev 14) are the first fruits (Mat 27:52) resurrected. It is unlikely they are the 144,000 of the twelve tribes in Rev 7, though they could be. We don't have enough scriptural support either way to be dogmatic about that. But they are referred to as "firstfruits" in Rev 14, so it would seem more reasonable to tie them in as the resurrected saints of Matt 27:52.

Naysayers that speak against pre trib rapture usually assume that those for it just read a book about it as if it was taught by man rather than what scripture has to say about it. It may be so for some believers, but it hasn't been for you and me. If they ever get around to addressing posts #1-5 in why Jesus is not talking about the same thing, I reckon they will keep assuming this topic as not having any basis in scripture at all because they still think it was taught by some man.

That is because most of them suffer from "Darbyitis". They seem to think Darby and some little girl dreamed up the pre-trib idea. Again, lack of homework. Sir Isaac Newton, 100 years before Darby was born, a committed Believer and prolific expositor on Scripture, held the position. And there are numerous other folks in antiquity that held to it also. Darby just brought it to the forefront and popularized it. While the Reformation did wonderful things regarding Salvation by Faith Alone, and other items, the Reformation failed miserably in terms of eschatology. So the prevailing ideas on these things that were part of the Roman Church, most Protestant groups brought that baggage along with them just like they also brought a stack of pagan inspired "Christian" holidays with them. But that is a whole different discussion and minefield.

 

[Davy]

Yeshua went out of His way many times to point us to the Harvest. Since God is a stickler for details, and the feast days of Leviticus 23 are fulfilled in Yeshua's first and second coming, the harvest prescription outlined in Leviticus 23 must also be in play.

While Yeshua is indeed the first fruits of the resurrection (1Cor 15:20) it is those saints that were resurrected shortly after Yeshua's resurrection that I believe are the first fruits of the harvest (Lev 23) (Mat 27:52). Many folks tend to overlook these resurrected saints. They are considered saints, unlike Lazarus, Jairus' daughter, etc that were resurrected by Yeshua before His death. Keep in mind that Yeshua told Mary not to cling to Him because He had not yet ascended to the Father. As our High Priest, He was required to remain ceremonially pure until He had delivered the sheaf offering of the first fruits to the Father (Lev 23). Yeshua was not a sheaf or bundle. The resurrected saints were. And many early Christian writers concur with this conclusion. Ignatius (a contemporary of the Apostle John), Iranaeus (a contemporary of Polycarp, a disciple of John), Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, and others.

Next off would be the removal of the righteous before or near the beginning of the 70th week of Daniel (7 years). That would be the ingathering harvest which follows after the first fruits harvest. It is the main part of the harvest that occurs during the season. This one is the removal that most folks think of, at least pre-trib folks.

Again, referring to Lev 23, there is the residual gleaning harvest that is done incrementally after the main harvest. it is done not all at once, but incrementally. This would be at least two and probably more righteous removals, or "raptures", DURING the 70th week of Daniel. We know that the two witnesses are killed, resurrected, and are raptured out of there at the mid week. (Rev 11) The multitude (gleanings again) of those coming out of the tribulation period (Rev 7). And this is all still not at the final end of the Great Tribulation.

It could be that the 144,000 that are seen at the throne (Rev 14) are the first fruits (Mat 27:52) resurrected. It is unlikely they are the 144,000 of the twelve tribes in Rev 7, though they could be. We don't have enough scriptural support either way to be dogmatic about that. But they are referred to as "firstfruits" in Rev 14, so it would seem more reasonable to tie them in as the resurrected saints of Matt 27:52.



That is because most of them suffer from "Darbyitis". They seem to think Darby and some little girl dreamed up the pre-trib idea. Again, lack of homework. Sir Isaac Newton, 100 years before Darby was born, a committed Believer and prolific expositor on Scripture, held the position. And there are numerous other folks in antiquity that held to it also. Darby just brought it to the forefront and popularized it. While the Reformation did wonderful things regarding Salvation by Faith Alone, and other items, the Reformation failed miserably in terms of eschatology. So the prevailing ideas on these things that were part of the Roman Church, most Protestant groups brought that baggage along with them just like they also brought a stack of pagan inspired "Christian" holidays with them. But that is a whole different discussion and minefield.

You begin OK with the link to the feasts, then you go off to men's doctrines of a Pre-trib rapture which is not written.

Nor did Sir Isaac Newton believe in a Pre-trib Rapture, just because he originally believed Jesus' coming was imminent. He later changed that to a much later calculation though, actually trying to set a date on the day of our Lord Jesus' coming. No man who does such date setting is to be trusted, because Jesus said His coming no man knows the day or hour.

 

[Copperhead]

You begin OK with the link to the feasts, then you go off to men's doctrines of a Pre-trib rapture which is not written.

Tell me then..... was the rapture of the saints in Matt 27:52 pre, mid, or post trib? They were after Yeshua Himself was resurrected and that event happened already. So did the trib begin before Yeshua was killed?

Far as I can tell, the great tribulation hasn't started. Yet, Matthew tells us that a bunch of the saints were resurrected. And many of the early church writers confirmed that the passage in Matthew was not some later addition or some such nonsense as modern textual critics have said, and that these saints where removed to be with the Lord. So there is a pre-trib rapture that has already happened, with another yet to come.

Now, did the Holy Spirit write the book of Matthew using the Apostles hand, or was that just "man made" nonsense that the Apostle just couldn't restrain himself in writing?

Tell me..... who are those that King David said would be hid in the Lord's pavilion during that time? And who is Isaiah referring to who will be hid in the chambers during that time?

Psalms 27:5 (NKJV) For in the time of trouble
He shall hide me in His pavilion;
In the secret place of His tabernacle
He shall hide me;
He shall set me high upon a rock.

Jeremiah 30:7 (NKJV) Alas! For that day is great,
So that none is like it;
And it is the time of Jacob's trouble,
But he shall be saved out of it.

Isaiah 26:20-21 (NKJV) Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.

And chew on this for a little while......

Isaiah 66:7 (NKJV) “Before she was in labor, she gave birth;
Before her pain came,
She delivered a male child.

Revelation 12:5 (NKJV) She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.

Revelation 2:26-27 (NKJV) And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—
27 ‘He shall rule them with a rod of iron;
They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter's vessels’—as I also have received from My Father;

1 Corinthians 12:27 (NKJV) Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually

 

[ScottA]

Then let Him prove to you that He was speaking of the future because of what the guy was talking about.... the future in being in the kingdom of heaven and eating.

Luke 14:15 And when one of them that sat at meat with him heard these things, he said unto him, Blessed is he that shall eat bread in the kingdom of God. 16 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:

Again, I get that. But you have put off to the future what He said was [then] "at hand." So my comment to you, is that He spoke of what "quickly" took place...because He himself entered into the kingdom as "the Last" of that "fold", and "It is finished."

So, then, what He eluded to of the future was future, but not for Israel, of whom He was "the Last." Which, if you can receive it, speaks of the timing of events properly, where all things are in Christ in His hour. For we, if we are the believers you refer to, must also believe that we are not crucified or raised up with Him in the "future" (as you would be implying with your "future" explanation), but rather [as it is written] we "were" crucified and raised up with Him [then]. Therefore, the timing is not "future", but past - and all that remains is the second death for "those who are alive and remain."

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

JiF,

Please read that one verse in context. Here it is:

So this Great Tribulation of which v. 21 speaks happens with God's people, the elect, still here on earth. The biblical evidence points to the elect people of God suffering 'terrible suffering' in the Great Trib. It is to be so severe that there never has been anything like it since the beginning of the world.

It will be worse then Hitler's Holocaust, Stalin's and Mao's genocides, 911, and the 2 World Wars. If there is another world war, it will be horrific because of the heavy military and air-force, with nuclear bombs.

The important issue for evangelical Christians is that there is no whisking them out before the Gt Trib. They will go right through it. That's why I consider the pre-trib rapture gives people false hope.

See a refutation of the pre-tribulation rapture HERE.

Oz

Thank you for sharing, but... His disciples had asked Jesus 3 questions and He was not answering them in order so you have to discern by Him which verses pertains to which of the 3 questions.

Matthew 24:1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

The first question was about the Temple being thrown down in 70 A.D.

The second question is in regard to signs of His appearing aka the rapture.

The third question is the end of the world aka the great tribulation as in a changed & oppressed world from what we are living in now.

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Verse 14 above is really referring to the first angel after the rapture in spreading the everlasting gospel everywhere as prophesied in Revelation 14:6-7

So when it jumps ahead to the middle of the great tribulation....Matthew 24:15-21 that pertains to the Jewish people that He was speaking to.

Then I discern a time shift in relation to that time of the great tribulation where the days of the elect were shortened due to the rapture before that great tribulation, otherwise no flesh could be saved, hence their bodies changed and taken.

Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Then Jesus was taking about the answers to the second question; the sign of His coming as many believers are saying the spirit of Christ is here or there and signs and lying wonders are present by those visitations. That is the tribulation we are living in now when saints depart from faith in giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. 1 Timothy 4:1-2 believing that they can receive the Holy Spirit again after a sign apart from salvation when that iniquity was already at work in Paul's days in 2 Thessalonians 2nd chapter from which they risk being damned for believing that lie in becoming castaways in being received later on as vessels unto dishonor in His House after the great tribulation. That was why Paul reminded them when they ha received the sanctification of the Spirit & the belief of the truth at the calling of the gospel and no other calling: 2 Thessalonians 2:13-15

Then Jesus goes on to describe what the living conditions will be like before the believers that are ready and abiding in Him & willing to leave this life behind are taken and it is NOT descriptive of what it would be like for believers at the end of the great tribulation. Then He touches base again on that tribulation before the rapture in how many believers will suffer their houses to be broken through as believers "open" themselves up to receive other spirits bringing signs and lying wonders, thinking they can receive the Holy Spirit apart from salvation again and again and again

So God will judge His House first at the rapture event, excommunicating workers of iniquity unless they repent before the Bridegroom comes and THEN at the end of the great tribulation, He will return with the pre raptured saints to defeat the world's armies and then put Satan in the pit and then resurrect those saints that were left behind as well as new believers that were killed after the great tribulation.

Do note that those saints resurrected are not meeting the Lord in the air, but on the ground because this event was after the world's armies was defeated and Satan was put in the pit as Revelation 20 dictated the order of events.

All I can say is Matthew 24 is not on chronological order and we need His wisdom in discerning which question He is answering in how they line up with everything else in the Bible about the latter days. Only He can show you. I know I cannot, but I see it thanks to Him.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

Yeshua went out of His way many times to point us to the Harvest. Since God is a stickler for details, and the feast days of Leviticus 23 are fulfilled in Yeshua's first and second coming, the harvest prescription outlined in Leviticus 23 must also be in play.

While Yeshua is indeed the first fruits of the resurrection (1Cor 15:20) it is those saints that were resurrected shortly after Yeshua's resurrection that I believe are the first fruits of the harvest (Lev 23) (Mat 27:52).

Those saints from Matthew 27:52 are in Paradise aka Abraham's bosom which has been taken to Heaven. They have not received their glorified bodies yet. Luke 13:24-30 does testify to sitting down with the O.T. saints and so there are N.T. saints to be taken with the O.T. saints in their new glorified bodies at that rapture event which is what I see as the first harvest; the firstfruits.

It could be that the 144,000 that are seen at the throne (Rev 14) are the first fruits (Mat 27:52) resurrected.

Those are virgin men specified as redeemed from the earth that were designated to be His personal choir that follows Him around in Heaven at the pre great trib rapture. That doesn't mean there were none other raptured. It was a testimony about who and where His personal choir will come from.

That is because most of them suffer from "Darbyitis". They seem to think Darby and some little girl dreamed up the pre-trib idea. Again, lack of homework. Sir Isaac Newton, 100 years before Darby was born, a committed Believer and prolific expositor on Scripture, held the position. And there are numerous other folks in antiquity that held to it also. Darby just brought it to the forefront and popularized it. While the Reformation did wonderful things regarding Salvation by Faith Alone, and other items, the Reformation failed miserably in terms of eschatology. So the prevailing ideas on these things that were part of the Roman Church, most Protestant groups brought that baggage along with them just like they also brought a stack of pagan inspired "Christian" holidays with them. But that is a whole different discussion and minefield.

Mockers will say that the story of Jesus was stolen from other myths and legends also, but believers need His help to prove all things, including the rapture. They can't dismiss the notion because of what many people say until they have discerned by Him in the scripture to know if they should dismiss it personally.