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Precious friend, Appreciate you So Much. Now I can "get back to business"...
See you in God’s Great GloryLand! ♫
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My apologies to all for any extraneous comments on Jefferson!
The point Wrangler made was on point to the OP, and I'd hate to see it lost. Regardless of who said it. It doesn't pick your pocket.
By the same token, whether or not someone is water baptized is only an issue if someone makes it an issue.
My view on water baptism doesn't victimize you. This is the point.
It's not those who say that we are saved through faith, and not water baptism, who reject those who say we must believe AND be water baptized.
It's those who say we must be water baptised who reject those who disagree.
Right?
Because when I say, You are saved by grace through faith, that includes the one who is water baptized. My belief includes the one who is water baptized. We can have unity as far as I'm concerned, I accept you as my brother.
When someone says, You are saved by grace through faith being water baptized, this does not include the one who is "by faith alone". Their belief is that I'm not even saved. So how does that one accept me as their brother?
Much love!
Precious friend(s), thanks for your participation in This Important Matter!
I believe water baptism is The Main Divider of christian denominations.
I pray {who will join me?} that we would ALL be united For God, and that
many will be blessed And Encouraged, prayerfully And Carefully reviewing
All Of God's Scriptural Evidence In HIS Important Doctrine! Amen?:
13 Bible baptisms
All loving help with Any Improvements needed in this Important "study"
will Be Greatly Appreciated! See you in God’s Great GloryLand! ♫
Regardless of whether water baptism is for salvation, or is a symbolic ritual for the saved, Jesus commanded us to go into the world, and baptize in the name of the father, son, and Holy Ghost, as part of making disciples of all men.
That’s clearly water baptism there. BTW, I don’t know of any sect that doesn’t baptize - so what’s the problem?
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
I kind of wish this thread was a poll of what is the biggest divider is.
To my way of thinking baptism is but a symbol, like having a wedding ring. As a married man, I generally want to wear it. Sometimes when I do hard physical work, I take the ring off (to protect the ring and my finger). It doesn't make me not married.
Furthermore, I do not think undergoing baptism is not offensive in any way, whereas humbling oneself enough to put your trust in another (the Messiah) is shocking to ones out of control ego. However, this divider is the species between believers and unbelievers. The genus divider is clear as I look at all these churches sparsely attended: ego.
I think many would identify with you in the wedding ring anology. It's not what makes you married, but being married you want it.
Not that only, well, my wife, she was EXTREMELY happy when I lost all that weight and could wear my original ring again! For her, is wasn't just "a ring", it was "that ring."
I was thinking about this last night, and realized, the really hard part is for those who believe salvation comes through water baptism, and they KNOW you weren't water baptized, but you say you are a Christian, and you say and do what a Christian would say and do, and now what?
Of course I have the same issue is someone has expressed that salvation ONLY comes through the work of baptism, and, having been baptized, they believe in Jesus. What do you do with that?
For me, and I think for several on this forum who feel differently than I, the most expedient thing to do is to be welcoming and accepting based on expressions of faith, but be prayerful, and truthful, and kind, patient, loving.
I find that those who are not sincere, and are more interesting in being trouble reveal themselves soon enought, and then comes Ignore. Why, my ignore list grew just today!
Much love!
It seems to me that there are many things that divide.
Hmm. It occurs to me. In 1 Corinthians 3, God talks about division in the church, but doctrines weren't mentioned, only people.
There's something to think about!
And in relation to dividing the church, God said, if you destroy it, He'll destroy you.
Much love!
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Precious friend, Several problems:
(A) There IS ONE "faith alone sect" that does NOT practice water baptism.
They have love, sound doctrine {#13 of 13 Bible baptisms}, And, unity!
(B) ALL the sects that say YES, water is for today, have multiple problems,
causing Severe Division and weakness, due to UNsound doctrines, i.e.:
1) believe AND be baptized
{i.e. immersion to contact their Christ's blood}?
(2) immersion with a symbolic interpretation?
(3) immersion ONCE in the "name of Jesus?
(4) immersion THRICE in the "name of the Triune Godhead?
(5) immersion {whether once or thrice} for "membership" in
their traditional assembly?
(6) sprinkling water on babies inducting them into religion
washing away their original sin?
(7) sprinkling water on babies inducting them into some covenant?
(8) sprinkling water on babies inducting them into their parent's custody
that they promise to raise them right? {into Mass Confusion?}
(9) sprinkling water on babies, admitting that their ritual is
UNscriptural, but "we do it anyway, because it is OUR tradition!"?
(10) pouring water onto babies or adults for Whatever
traditional reason religion "can come up with"?
@MatthewG:
Notice TEN Divisive groups, while "other" Dividers have only TWO groups
"at war" with each other, ie:
Deity Of CHRIST vs NON-deity; Grace Through faith vs faith PLUS works;
ALL-Sufficient BLOOD! vs INsufficient blood; NO "signs" vs yes "signs," etc.
Conclusion: "God Is NOT the author of {ALL of this} Confusion!" (1Co_14:33 KJB!)
Thus, HIS Answer Of "NO water For Today," IMMEDIATELY And Absolutely:
Vanquishes Satan's Confusion Of Contradictions Into OBLIVION!
Correct?
Further Confirming Rightly Divided "studies"... showing:
Prophecy/Law ISRAEL = TWELVE "sent to water baptize"
Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15!) From “Things That DIFFER!”:
MYSTERY/GRACE Body Of CHRIST = Paul "NOT sent to water baptize"
...are here:
God's Approval/TWO Gospels In Prophecy vs Mystery
"Distinctions" of Prophecy vs MYSTERY
@marks:
Have I become your enemy because I share The Truth, In love?
All Precious friends, Please Be Very Richly Blessed!
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How so?
Where I've been fellowshiping, they've practiced water baptism, and as a testimony of salvation. What problem do you see with that?
Are you thinking that those who do not practice water baptism should divide from those who do?
To be honest, I'm having a hard time following where you are going on this thread.
Much love!
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
If baptism isn’t symbolic, you must literally die and come back to life when baptized.
If water baptism is for salvation - then Jesus was saved when He underwent Johns baptism.
That's what I was thinking...people are the main cause of division. Mostly because they are puffed up in their own pride and knowledge of what they interpret scripture to say and refuse to accept anyone else's interpretation.
Sigh...one day we will all come to the full knowledge of His Truth and be united in faith, having one mind and one accord concerning God's Word.
Precious friend, thanks again for your honest input {which does not put us "at war"},
and also for asking good questions about other's beliefs, and the Disagreements we
may have to "work on For HIS {CHRIST's} Honor And Glory." Amen?
In brief, just asking a basic question: Does God Require water baptism, Today,
Under HIS PURE GRACE?
Apparently your answer would be "yes," Correct?:
The question is, does a group/sect practice determine Sound Biblical Doctrine,
From God, for our "faith and practice"? Now, thinking for a moment, what if
"that idea" was Multiplied x 10, as the other "yes" water problems listed in
post #49?
How about "fed with milk and not meat" (1Co_3:2 KJB!)?
These don't refer to {spiritual food} doctrines? Please advise?
Hopefully this will "help you follow my point" of this discussion:
Please Be Blessed In This BRIEF Summary
{of FULL "study" = 13 Bible baptisms}:
Prophecy/Law for ISRAEL:
►►► The Twelve Were Sent to {water} baptize! ◄◄◄
The TWO Main (of 12) baptismS =
A) water, For remission of sins/induction into Israeli "priesthood!":
(Matthew_3:5-6; Mark_1:4; Luke_3:3; John_1:31; Luke_7:29-30; Acts_10:37)
(Matthew_28:19; Mark_16:16; Acts_2:38, 22:16; Ezekiel_36:25; Isaiah 52:15)
+
B) WITH The Holy Spirit, Poured Out By CHRIST, for power, signs And wonders!
(Isaiah_44:3; Matthew_3:11; Mark_1:8, 16:17-18;
Luke_24:49; Acts_2:17-18, 38, 8:15-17, 11:16)
Prophecy/Law for ISRAEL!
Rightly Divided (2_Timothy_2:15 KJB!) From Things That Differ!:
Mystery/GRACE! =
our "apostle to the Gentiles" for The Body Of CHRIST:
►►► Paul Was Not Sent to {water} baptize! Why Not?: ◄◄◄
Today:
Only ONE Baptism = "BY" The ONE Spirit = God's OPERATION {#13},
Spiritually Identifying members In (The ONE Body Of) CHRIST!!
(Ephesians_4:5; Colossians_2:12; Galatians_3:27;
Romans_6:3-4; 1_Corinthians_12:13 KJB!)
Conclusion: God's ONE Baptism Today? = ONE
OR, EQUALS TWO? = water problem with MATH! Correct?
Be Blessed!
Extra Note: Most do not realize there is NO "Baptism OF {or} IN The Spirit"
In HOLY Scripture, just THE TWO Shown above...interesting, eh?
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No, actually. I'm of the opinion that water baptism was a Jewish practice, which was continued in Christianity as a matter of tradition.
Broad brush style of judgments won't get you very far with me, I'm afraid.
That my church water baptizes does not just tank their doctrine or teaching. There's much more to it than that. I've already said that my church practices water baptism as a testimony to salvation.
What exactly is your issue with that?
Much love!
Context . . .
1 Corinthians 3:1-5 KJV
1) And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2) I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3) For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4) For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
5) Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
Doctrine is not given as the cause for division. What is it that they saith? They are dividing under people.
Much love!
So I get it, I think. Just like me, you don't see water baptism as being applied to the church as a sacrament. That it was a Jewish practice, not commanded for the church.
You seem to have a problem if people do it though, and I don't.
Paul expressed that he was glad he didn't baptize more than he had, but please take note, he did not say he shouldn't have baptized them. His reason for being glad he didn't baptize more people was NOT that baptism was wrong, or shouldn't be done, he just didn't want anyone to think he was appropriating baptism into his own name.
It was a matter of people not getting the wrong idea, but that wrong idea wasn't about baptism, it was about himself.
So, I, like Paul, do not speak against baptizing in water, only that people have the right idea about it.
Much love!
I apologize, was just trying to, as VP Harris would say "get to the ROOT CAUSE"
of the Division. So, back to our Great Discussion, And, God's Truthful Scriptures.
Will probably "go a lot farther" with you?
No problem with that. I much prefer "the Mutual faith of us as members of The Body Of
CHRIST to be the basis of our fellowship..., since "we Are members one of another"
(Rom_12:5; 1Co_12:12, 18 KJB!)
...Instead of {condemned} Denominational traditions of UNsound doctrines.
Did not God, Through Paul, Command in Eph_4:25?:
"Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth
with his neighbour: for we are members one of another." Correct?
{How is lying to them "prayerful, and truthful, and kind, patient, loving"}
Therefore, a simple "yes or no" question can have Only ONE Truthful Answer,
From God, Correct?:
Precious friend, thanks, now I know where you "are coming from"...
Would God Want this to be such a Serious issue?:
Is it ok With God for "christian tradition" to be practiced Even though
JESUS Himself "Condemned religious tradition, letting go of The
Commandments Of God" (Matthew 15:3-6; Mark 7:8-9 KJB!)?
And so the basic question has to be answered, because ONE or the "other" is
wrong, must be "studied" For God's Truth, And spoken by "every one of us" as
"Truth to his neighbor!" {"prayerful, and truthful, and kind, patient, loving"},
Correct?
How are new-born babes In CHRIST going to brought out of Confusion, like
we suffered when we were at their level of growth In GRACE? Are the
denominational Confused leaders who {refuse to face up/ANSWER this},
should answer And show honest seekers ALL Of God's Evidence * For their
answer, going to help them? {In 38 years NEVER "saw ONE class" on water = NONE!
Exactly HOW does that "ground newborns" In Important Doctrines Of God?}:
What "I'm thinking" doesn't matter; What Does God Command about "lies
Which are UNclean"? "Come OUT/Be separate" (2_Co 6:17-18)?:
Should I "come out" when:
(1) I'm in Romanism or Reformed denomination, and, I "studied"
Scripture * and found out "baby baptism" was UNscriptural?
{btw, I "felt horrible" in my spirit {Holy Spirit Conviction?}, when,
in the Reformed denomination, I "knew The Truth," and went to
the next service and watched when they "performed THEIR tradition."}
{Or, should I have "stayed/confronted them" about their doctrine?}
(2) I'm in the "church of Christ" and they showed me THEIR few, pet,
fragmented verses of "baptismal regeneration" which I "studied"
Scripture * and found out they were Scriptural, But they were
Also UNdispensational {OUT of context, and NOT for GRACE, Today! #}?
{Or, should I have "stayed/confronted them" about their doctrine?}
Also @Curtis {who believes water Is Important, right?}:
(3) I'm in IFB, and I "studied" Scripture * and found out that
there is NO symbolism/testimony in their water tradition!
{Or, should I have "stayed/confronted them" about their doctrine?}
I did NOT "stay and cause Division in these {Exclusive} assemblies" and
30 years later still seems pretty Clear to me I obeyed God?:
2_Co 6:17-18:
"Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, Saith The Lord,
and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, And will be a Father
unto you, and ye shall be My sons and daughters, saith The Lord Almighty."
Hopefully God's Scriptures Of Truth will help us to "go a lot farther," eh?:
* 13 Bible baptisms
# God's Approval/TWO Gospels In Prophecy vs Mystery
# "Distinctions" of Prophecy vs MYSTERY
Be Blessed!
I'm not going to get involved in yet another baptism argument. It comes up again and again and never gets anywhere.
But I think you have a point about people and I think the main issue regarding division is actually that of authority.
For example who has authority to determine what interpretation of scripture is correct?
Who has authority to determine what role water baptism play in salvation (or not)? etc. etc.
Just as an FYI . . . all the fonts and symbols and everything make your posts "busy" for me, hard for my eyes, difficult to read.
Much love!
You definitely need a new church if this describes yours.
My church doesn't function that way.
What is your solution to have unity with those who share your same faith in Christ, those whom God has regenerated, those who believe you must be water baptised?
How do you attain unity with them?
Much love!
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