Mans Inability to come to Christ

[Jane_Doe22]

My wife and I have children, and I praise the Lord Jesus for the love of God and people that He has put inside of each and every one of us. We have evangelized. God granted us opportunities with Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Humanists, Mormons, etc. We've handed Bibles to people in each of those groups mentioned, even Bibles in their own language, even when they did not speak English or barely spoke English or spoke English fluently. I tell you this as a demonstration of how God vitalizes the Word in us when He says "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age" (Matthew 28:18-20).

FYI, members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (nicknamed "Mormons") do indeed love Christ, love the Bible etc. Including myself.

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

That's not actually the core of the disagreement here. Nobody is denying the Christ loved first. The disagreements are on:
1) Whether or not God offers the gift of salvation to everyone, and
2) Is the fight of salvation a gift a person can accept or reject? Or do they have no choice in the matter.

 

[Enoch111]

First, you claim that Jesus Christ is wrong about the Gospel of Christ when He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

Jesus Christ is not wrong about anything, but you are totally wrong in claiming that God chooses some for salvation.

So let's take a close look at John 15:16 & 19 and see how you have taken words OUT OF CONTEXT to concoct your theory.

16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you... 19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

So we need to ask ourselves some questions about what was being said:

1. Was Jesus speaking about choosing His apostles (or His disciples) for salvation? Absolutely not.

2. Was Jesus speaking about choosing His apostles (or disciples) for a specific purpose? Absolutely.

3. So what was the stated purpose? "...that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain..."

4. So would it be fair and accurate to say that Jesus chose His apostles to become spiritually fruitful, and that the fruit would primarily be a harvest of souls? Absolutely.

5. And when Jesus said "I have ordained you" it meant that the apostles were selected and commissioned by Christ to fulfil their respective ministries? Absolutely.

Then why is it that some take these verses out of context to claim that God chooses some for salvation? Because they have been brainwashed by the Calvinists.

The whole point of this OP to promote the nonsense of Five Point Calvinism. So if people are totally unable to come to Christ (TOTAL DEPRAVITY), it means that God picks and chooses some for salvation (UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION), and ignores all the others. And those who are thus chosen cannot resist God's grace (hence IRRESISTIBLE GRACE). Which must lead to the conclusion that Christ died only for the so-called "elect" (hence LIMITED ATONEMENT). And all this has been concocted out of thin air, since the Bible says the exact opposite.

 

[justbyfaith]

Thats not true, not Spiritually. Man is dead Spiritually, his soul is dead to God ! And a dead man cant cry out to anyone. His only hope is if God has willed to raise him from the dead !

A person can be alive to God and yet not born again yet. They are what would be identified as a "spiritual fetus". They can receive nourishment from the umbilical cord; but they do not yet have the spiritual life that we would identify as being "born again".

I believe the publican was born again at the time he prayed.

He was a "spiritual fetus" before he prayed...he became born again because of his prayer.

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation)

Is Jesus, there, speaking to all who will ever be saved or is He speaking to the original twelve?

I think that a case can be made easily from scripture that Jesus chose the twelve and they did not choose Him. For that would have been the purpose of HIs praying on the mountain before He chose them.

 

[FollowHim]

Looks like the Calvinists have managed to brainwash you.

Now kindly go back to the Bible and discover the truth. Just because human beings have inherited the sin nature does NOT mean that (a) the unsaved can do no good or righteous deeds, and (b) the unsaved cannot comprehend the Gospel or be drawn to Christ by the power of the Gospel and the power Holy Spirit.

Interesting idea, brainwashing. But if our language of faith is about our emotional lostness and the power of Jesus's love to change us, one way of expressing this is to say we are incapable of knowing Christ until the Father draws us.

If you go into families, prisons, disaster situations, which the Lord has plucked people out of, they know unless He had bent down and opened the door they would be gone eternally. So I would suggest using the term brainwashed does not come close to understanding a heart in awe and wonder at Gods love and grace.

If these forums have taught me anything, man is so lost, even with the phrase "A wise man who puts my words into action is like....."
can be taken to mean you do not have to follow Jesus just believe in Him and the power of the cross. There is something so astounding at this, that Jesus could be a friend of those who talk against His very words, yet these same people will condemn me to hell for repeating Jesus's words.

So brain washing does not come close to spiritual blindness and emotional entombing that goes on. It is ironic this very group recognised my loving attitude and care, and thought if I was on their side I would be so powerful, except their very words condemned them. We are called to be just loving and caring, so if we make enemies of those who follow Gods word, we are not Gods people but His enemy. God bless you

 

[brightfame52]

A person can be alive to God and yet not born again yet. They are what would be identified as a "spiritual fetus". They can receive nourishment from the umbilical cord; but they do not yet have the spiritual life that we would identify as being "born again".



He was a "spiritual fetus" before he prayed...he became born again because of his prayer.



Is Jesus, there, speaking to all who will ever be saved or is He speaking to the original twelve?

I think that a case can be made easily from scripture that Jesus chose the twelve and they did not choose Him. For that would have been the purpose of HIs praying on the mountain before He chose them.

Not spiritually alive. A person cannot be spiritually alive to God and Spiritually dead at the same time. That is absolute nonsense!

 

[justbyfaith]

Not spiritually alive. A person cannot be spiritually alive to God and Spiritually dead at the same time. That is absolute nonsense!

A "spiritual fetus" has not yet been born again. It is alive but has not yet been born.

 

[Nancy]

Dear Nancy,

I do not promote subscribing to Calvin.

Nor, do I suggest attending a reformed Baptist church.

I do declare to stick with Scripture. The Word of God alone. I'm not saying without people around, but I am saying to be discernig about people imposing their interpretations upon Scripture for it is written "know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is [a matter] of one's own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God" (2 Peter 1:20-21).

All does mean "all", Nancy, but there can be conditional context defining the population represented by "all".

Nancy, the phrase "the whole world" appears twice in the First Book of John, once in 1 John 2:2 and a second time in 1 John 5:19. Each of these occurrences of "world" present a conditional context defining different populations represented by "world".

I noticed that you wrote "free 'gift' He places in my heart" which is meaningful, but there is leaven in the sentence that you wrote, and the leaven is your choice to "accept" which is a work by you. Your sentence contradicts itself. See that you've leavened the whole loaf of your sentence when your sentence is compared to the Word of God in the final paragraph of this post

My wife and I have children, and I praise the Lord Jesus for the love of God and people that He has put inside of each and every one of us. We have evangelized. God granted us opportunities with Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Humanists, Mormons, etc. We've handed Bibles to people in each of those groups mentioned, even Bibles in their own language, even when they did not speak English or barely spoke English or spoke English fluently. I tell you this as a demonstration of how God vitalizes the Word in us when He says "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age" (Matthew 28:18-20).

In fact, Nancy, it's time for me to step away from this site, for a while at least, to be with my wife and children.

Dear Nancy, I give you the next paragraph in a peaceful way. The Scripture cannot be broken, and the Word of God is clear as indicated in the next paragraph.

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

Hello Kermos,
"I noticed that you wrote "free 'gift' He places in my heart" which is meaningful, but there is leaven in the sentence that you wrote, and the leaven is your choice to "accept" which is a work by you. <--- How else does one "receive"?? Wouldn't one say that the Giver is the one doing the "work"?

"Your sentence contradicts itself. See that you've leavened the whole loaf of your sentence when your sentence is compared to the Word of God in the final paragraph of this post"

"I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!"

Yes, Of course they were at the same supper, and Jesus prays not only for them present, but also for" those also who believe in Me through their word" So, to me that simply say's that Christ is also praying for future converts, through their preaching of His Words.
Is faith a "work"? Is believing a "work"? Faith is not earned, nor can it be.
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,"
Eph. 2:8

God get's every single bit of Glory, for who He is, for His amazing love, mercy, grace and the ultimate sacrifice for us! IOW-In ALL things.

This is a very controversial topic and I do not say that I know God's ways but this I do know, I'm loved, forgiven, held and provided for by The King of The Universe, Amen! So, even if He did not choose me, He still blesses and keeps me. I want nothing more than to glorify and honor His name wherever I go, whoever I am with...

"With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)"
But then: Luke 1:37 - "For with God nothing shall be impossible."

"Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him"
Job 13:15a

I hope you had some good family time
In His name,
Nancy

 

[brightfame52]

A "spiritual fetus" has not yet been born again. It is alive but has not yet been born.

A spiritual fetus has spiritual life it's a new creation!

 

[justbyfaith]

A spiritual fetus has spiritual it's a new creation!

So, the point being that a man can be drawn to Christ without necessarily being already born again...

The process of the Spirit drawing him to Christ happens during the time that he is a "spiritual fetus"...at which time he is not yet born again.

 

[brightfame52]

So, the point being that a man can be drawn to Christ without necessarily being already born again...

The process of the Spirit drawing him to Christ happens during the time that he is a "spiritual fetus"...at which time he is not yet born again.

He is a spiritual new creation before he believes in Christ. A natural man is spiritually dead and can't believe in Christ.

 

[justbyfaith]

He is a new creation before he believes in Christ.

He is alive so that he can receive food from the mother's umbilical cord; but he is not born again into the kingdom of God so that he can begin to feed himself and live the Christian life.

 

[brightfame52]

He is alive so that he can receive food from the mother's umbilical cord; but he is not born again into the kingdom of God so that he can begin to feed himself and live the Christian life.

Yes a new spiritual creation is spiritually alive and can receive spiritual nurishment.

 

[brightfame52]

He is alive so that he can receive food from the mother's umbilical cord; but he is not born again into the kingdom of God so that he can begin to feed himself and live the Christian life.

Yes the new creation is in the kingdom of God. One must be in the Spiritual kingdom of God in order to receive the Spiritual Gospel.

So the child of God has a new birth in being created a new spiritual creature with spiritual life then that life is brought forth by the Spiritual Gospel. The Gospel gives birth by bringing forth or to light the Spiritual life.

 

[Ziggy]

Man's inability to come to Christ.

The struggle.

We are failures oh Lord, without you.
We are our own worst Idol.
I can't see past myself.
My thoughts, my feelings, my works, my paths.

Is it inability or unwillingness that keeps the curtain closed between us?
If I allow the curtain to fall, what will become of me?

This body which you have given me is made like yours.
I am in your image and likeness but I am not you, I am me.
You gave me a mind to think like you think,
A heart to feel like you feel,
Hands to touch the way you touch
And feet to walk the way you walk.

But I do not want to lay down and die.
I do not want to give up what I think,
how I feel. what I touch, and the way I want to walk.

I am full of guilt and sorrow and fear
The darkness that surrounds me is thick
But somehow I feel a little comfort
in knowing it is Mine.

I can think for myself, I can feel for myself
I can cause healing or pain
and the paths are those that I laid down myself to walk in.
I take pride in who I am. I am me and I alone have done this.

You have set a heavy burden on my heart and in my mind
you have made the labour hard and the paths crooked.
Why have you done this to me?!
What purpose does it serve you to torture me so?


And yet, it is you who has created me.
You think about me
You feel for me
You carry my load
and you direct my paths.

But I do not want to acknowledge you oh Lord!
I am my own worst enemy.
And you break me, and I am broken.
And you show my failures.
You show me that I am lost without you.
I am dying with or without you.

Without you, there is no knowledge
Without you, there is no love
Without you, I can not be healed
Without you, there is no path.

The curtain is torn and now I see
the way is hard and you will walk with me
The cross is heavy I can not bear it.
I don't want to die!

DO YOU TRUST ME?
I want to,
DO YOU LOVE ME?
I do, and I always have.
LET ME HOLD YOU?
I am afraid.
WALK WITH ME.
I will fall.

OPEN YOUR MIND TO ME
OPEN YOUR HEART
LET ME MOVE THROUGH YOU
LET ME CARRY YOU

LEARN OF ME
LOVE ME
TOUCH ME
WALK WITH ME.

Who am I Lord?
You are me and I am you,
You are not alone.
We built you together
but your ways you have built on sand
My ways are built on solid ground.

Come die in my arms, I will hold you.
And we will rise together.
Your mind will have my mind.
Your heart will have my heart
Your burdens will now be mine
Your path will always be where I lead you.

This is the reason I made you like me.
So you would know me
So you would love me
So I would not be alone in my work
So you would walk with me


From my heart
Love you
HUGS

 

[Pearl]

Shame through sin

I believe that a lot of non christian people hide from God because they know they have done wrong and are ashamed to approach God.

For all of us there will probably be periods in our life when we feel in some way separated from God. The scriptures tell us that in the beginning before the fall Adam and Eve were totally comfortable in God’s presence;

“Now the man and his wife were both naked, but they felt no shame.” Genesis 2:25

But that after they had sinned they became ashamed;

“At that moment their eyes were opened, and they suddenly felt shame at their nakedness.” Genesis 3:7

And instead of enjoying their customary walk with God they hid from him;

“When the cool evening breezes were blowing, the man and his wife heard the LORD God walking about in the garden. So they hid from the LORD God among the trees.” Genesis 3:8 NLT

I think that when we feel distant from God it is usually some sort of sin that has caused that distance, making us feel ‘naked’ and ashamed and preventing us from enjoying our customary walk with him day by day. We may not even consciously be aware of it, but our spirits feel ‘shame’ and we unconsciously try to hide from God by gradually keeping Christian friends at arms length or even staying away from church meetings till eventually we become inward looking and confused as to how we got into this mess and feel that we can no longer pray.

Unlike Adam and Eve though, we have a way back. Through Jesus we are able to stand before the throne of grace with confidence, ask God to show us our sin, seek his forgiveness and move back into close fellowship with him.

 

[brightfame52]

Man's inability to come to Christ.

The struggle.

We are failures oh Lord, without you.
We are our own worst Idol.
I can't see past myself.
My thoughts, my feelings, my works, my paths.

Is it inability or unwillingness that keeps the curtain closed between us?
If I allow the curtain to fall, what will become of me?

This body which you have given me is made like yours.
I am in your image and likeness but I am not you, I am me.
You gave me a mind to think like you think,
A heart to feel like you feel,
Hands to touch the way you touch
And feet to walk the way you walk.

But I do not want to lay down and die.
I do not want to give up what I think,
how I feel. what I touch, and the way I want to walk.

I am full of guilt and sorrow and fear
The darkness that surrounds me is thick
But somehow I feel a little comfort
in knowing it is Mine.

I can think for myself, I can feel for myself
I can cause healing or pain
and the paths are those that I laid down myself to walk in.
I take pride in who I am. I am me and I alone have done this.

You have set a heavy burden on my heart and in my mind
you have made the labour hard and the paths crooked.
Why have you done this to me?!
What purpose does it serve you to torture me so?


And yet, it is you who has created me.
You think about me
You feel for me
You carry my load
and you direct my paths.

But I do not want to acknowledge you oh Lord!
I am my own worst enemy.
And you break me, and I am broken.
And you show my failures.
You show me that I am lost without you.
I am dying with or without you.

Without you, there is no knowledge
Without you, there is no love
Without you, I can not be healed
Without you, there is no path.

The curtain is torn and now I see
the way is hard and you will walk with me
The cross is heavy I can not bear it.
I don't want to die!

DO YOU TRUST ME?
I want to,
DO YOU LOVE ME?
I do, and I always have.
LET ME HOLD YOU?
I am afraid.
WALK WITH ME.
I will fall.

OPEN YOUR MIND TO ME
OPEN YOUR HEART
LET ME MOVE THROUGH YOU
LET ME CARRY YOU

LEARN OF ME
LOVE ME
TOUCH ME
WALK WITH ME.

Who am I Lord?
You are me and I am you,
You are not alone.
We built you together
but your ways you have built on sand
My ways are built on solid ground.

Come die in my arms, I will hold you.
And we will rise together.
Your mind will have my mind.
Your heart will have my heart
Your burdens will now be mine
Your path will always be where I lead you.

This is the reason I made you like me.
So you would know me
So you would love me
So I would not be alone in my work
So you would walk with me


From my heart
Love you
HUGS

It's both. The unwillingness is a result of the inability!

 

[Ziggy]

It's both. The unwillingness is a result of the inability!

Inability..

we are lame, we are blind, we are deaf... we are unable.
ahh.. the mercy of God!

Luk 7:22 Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.

He is alway talking to us. ALWAYS.

Here I am, take my hand, I will lift you up.

Thank You brightfame52!
HUGS

 

[ChristisGod]

So, the point being that a man can be drawn to Christ without necessarily being already born again...

The process of the Spirit drawing him to Christ happens during the time that he is a "spiritual fetus"...at which time he is not yet born again.

those terms/phrases are not from scripture.

a spiritual fetus is a contradiction. one cannot be spiritual without the spirit as per 1 Corinthians 2

1 Corinthians 2:10-14
these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

John 14:17
the Spirit of truth. The world cannot receive Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. But you do know Him, for He abides with you and will be in you.

hope this helps !!!

 

[brightfame52]

christop

a spiritual fetus is a contradiction. one cannot be spiritual without the spirit as per 1 Corinthians 2

Thank you so obvious !

 

[Taken]

Lets just see how God paints man in his sinful state post fall.

Jeremiah 13:23- Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil.

above we see man can do nothing to change his condition no more than a man can change the color of his skin or the leopard his spots. The same with sin and scripture makes it clear in numerous places we were dead in our sins when Christ made us alive.

Coming to Christ can only happen when He draws us and enables us to come, its impossible to come by our free will since we are slaves of sin, in bondage to sin, and sin is our master.

So IMHO free will does not exist until after we are born again then we have the capability to choose to sin or choose to obey God.

The free will debate will never be resolved on this side of heaven and most of us have our lines drawn in the sand with the issue.

hope this helps !!!

Disagree- with back-information considered.

God IS All knowing.
He knows us Before we are Born.
There is nothing new under the sun.
Many are called, Few are chosen.

In perspective-
Man is Not all knowing.
Man makes his own Freewill elections.
(God already knows a man's Election)

Men are individually in all categories...
...believe, convert
...hear, doubt, wants, continues
...hear, doubts, Foolishness to him, rejects
...hears, accepted other notions, stands/ preaches against God.
(God Knows All Things)

Man learns along the way of the direction he chooses for himself.

It is the direction a man Freely chooses...
••That God intervenes...
•Giving Measures of Gods Gift of Faith---•Withholding Measures of Gods Gift of Faith--

•Men Freely choose their Direction-
•God is Just
•God oversees that Every man receives success in his own Freewill Election.

IMO-
A man's "Spiritual" Freewill is exercised BEFORE Conversion.

Conversion- "IS" A man Exercising his Freewill to Surrender and Freely Give God Authority Over the man's "Spiritual" Life.

Glory to God,
Taken