Many Say ‘Just BELIEVE’… But What Did JESUS Actually TEACH?

[Grailhunter]

Wasn't it Paul who wrote that believers are dead to the Law, that they might be married to Christ..? He only observed the Law insofar as it was expedient so as to not scandalize and offend the Jews unnecessarily, in order to try and win them to Christ. No one could understand about being dead to the Law until after they received Christ (if they would).

Well he did not mince words much.....But if the ministry of death, engraved in letters on stones, .....You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. The Jews..... God love 'em. I grew up with them in University City and Clayton, Missouri and had many friends that were Jewish.....But God raised them to be violent and they were stubborn and hardheaded.

Yeshua offered salvation to the Jews first.......which was only right. But most of them rejected it. Then it came to the call for the crucifixion of the Son of God. Crucify Him! Crucify Him! Let His blood be on us and our children!!!!
If you look at the history of the Jews from then on this call cursed them for hundreds of years. The Christians came to call them "The killers of Christ" and some Christians still hate them today. Their Temple was destroyed and they were treated like witches during the witch-hunts and shunned and expelled from Christian countries.

It wasn't until the United States befriended them in 1967 and supported them during the Six Day War that they regained the promise land back. Back during "Desert Storm" I helped install the Patriot Missile System in Isreal, so I can say I have stood between Isreal and her enemies. And now President Trump defends them again.

I love Isreal and the Jews, and the Apostle Paul loved them too. Of course, Paul was Jewish and understood they were hardheaded and set in their ways. And he was sympathetic for them but held the line against observing the Mosaic Law.

This is what makes the big difference between the Jewish-Christians and the Gentile-Christians. Yeshua taught the Apostles that the Mosaic Law would continue and if it would not change and anyone that changed it would be least in Heaven. So the Jewish-Christians followed the Mosaic Law and worshipped and sacrificed in the Temple.....because the Mosaic Law called for it. And any Gentiles they converted had to be circumcised first and learn and follow the Law.

Of course when Yeshua converted Paul on the road to Damascus, He apparently explained to Paul that none of this was necessary. Paul went to the Temple and Synagogues to worship and to convert the Jews and Jewish-Christians to his ministry. But as we know the Jews and Jewish-Christian opposed and harassed Paul and his ministry. Which was mostly settled at the meeting in Jerusalem in Acts 15 with James and James issued a letter to stop the harassment.

And I think.....that this is the reason that the Jewish-Christian sect died out around the 1st century and the Gentile-Christians continued at the helm of the Church. But it was a bumpy road, when the Roman Catholic took over things went downhill from there......corruption.....false doctrines.....violence and the inquisitions etc, until the Protestant reform made corrections and required church Wedding Ceremonies to be married and put Bibles in the hands of the People. .....But then the Protestants fractured the church into tens of thousands of denominations.
So the story continues.

 

[Behold]

Many do not understand Paul, you are one of them,

Paul was chosen AFTER Jesus finished His minitry to the JEWS.
This is why Paul is the "Apostile to the gentiles".
Are you a gentile?

So, Paul's Gospel is unique, because its given in the "time of the gentiles" before the Trib starts.
And Paul's Gospel, is "the Gospel of the GRACE of GOD".........that is the "preaching of the CROSS".
Paul was also given all the Church Doctrine to give to the body of Christ.

 

[Lizbeth]

Well he did not mince words much.....But if the ministry of death, engraved in letters on stones, .....You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. The Jews..... God love 'em. I grew up with them in University City and Clayton, Missouri and had many friends that were Jewish.....But God raised them to be violent and they were stubborn and hardheaded.

Yeshua offered salvation to the Jews first.......which was only right. But most of them rejected it. Then it came to the call for the crucifixion of the Son of God. Crucify Him! Crucify Him! Let His blood be on us and our children!!!!
If you look at the history of the Jews from then on this call cursed them for hundreds of years. The Christians came to call them "The killers of Christ" and some Christians still hate them today. Their Temple was destroyed and they were treated like witches during the witch-hunts and shunned and expelled from Christian countries.

It wasn't until the United States befriended them in 1967 and supported them during the Six Day War that they regained the promise land back. Back during "Desert Storm" I helped install the Patriot Missile System in Isreal, so I can say I have stood between Isreal and her enemies. And now President Trump defends them again.

I love Isreal and the Jews, and the Apostle Paul loved them too. Of course, Paul was Jewish and understood they were hardheaded and set in their ways. And he was sympathetic for them but held the line against observing the Mosaic Law.

This is what makes the big difference between the Jewish-Christians and the Gentile-Christians. Yeshua taught the Apostles that the Mosaic Law would continue and if it would not change and anyone that changed it would be least in Heaven. So the Jewish-Christians followed the Mosaic Law and worshipped and sacrificed in the Temple.....because the Mosaic Law called for it. And any Gentiles they converted had to be circumcised first and learn and follow the Law.

Of course when Yeshua converted Paul on the road to Damascus, He apparently explained to Paul that none of this was necessary. Paul went to the Temple and Synagogues to worship and to convert the Jews and Jewish-Christians to his ministry. But as we know the Jews and Jewish-Christian opposed and harassed Paul and his ministry. Which was mostly settled at the meeting in Jerusalem in Acts 15 with James and James issued a letter to stop the harassment.

And I think.....that this is the reason that the Jewish-Christian sect died out around the 1st century and the Gentile-Christians continued at the helm of the Church. But it was a bumpy road, when the Roman Catholic took over things went downhill from there......corruption.....false doctrines.....violence and the inquisitions etc, until the Protestant reform made corrections and required church Wedding Ceremonies to be married and put Bibles in the hands of the People. .....But then the Protestants fractured the church into tens of thousands of denominations.
So the story continues.

Thank you for your response. I think we need to keep in mind that the bible says the ordinances of the Law were abolished and blotted out at the cross.......and though the moral/ethical lessons in the Law remain valid as a standard of righteousness (and even the ordinances are valid as allegories and spiritual lessons) nobody who is a believer is under the Law. When Jesus said not one jot/tittle would pass from the Law until all was fulfilled.......this was before the cross, and also before the 70AD destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple which put an end to the sacrificial system.

 

[Grailhunter]

Thank you for your response. I think we need to keep in mind that the bible says the ordinances of the Law were abolished and blotted out at the cross

I agree they were, but I do not think you find a scripture that says that exactly. A lot happened when Yeshua passed on the cross. More than the twelve realized.

and though the moral/ethical lessons in the Law remain valid as a standard of righteousness (and even the ordinances are valid as allegories and spiritual lessons) nobody who is a believer is under the Law. When Jesus said not one jot/tittle would pass from the Law until all was fulfilled.......this was before the cross, and also before the 70AD destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple which put an end to the sacrificial system.

You need to look at the ordinances of the Mosaic Law......most do not apply to us. And the Law has not passed or changed....it still applies to the Jews. And you will not find a scripture that the destruction of the temple put an end to the sacrificial system. What you are saying applies to Christians and it is true. But the twelve and Jewish-Christians still observed the Law.
Paul changed all that. The Gentile-Christians did not observe the Law or sacrifice in the Temple, for one thing they were not allowed in the Temple. Paul understood that Yeshua was the sacrifice that ended the need for all sacrifices. The morals expressed in the New Testament apply to Christians. Some of those morals were also expressed in the Mosaic Laws and it would make sense that they carried over to Christianity.

 

[Lizbeth]

I agree they were, but I do not think you find a scripture that says that exactly. A lot happened when Yeshua passed on the cross. More than the twelve realized.



You need to look at the ordinances of the Mosaic Law......most do not apply to us. And the Law has not passed or changed....it still applies to the Jews. And you will not find a scripture that the destruction of the temple put an end to the sacrificial system. What you are saying applies to Christians and it is true. But the twelve and Jewish-Christians still observed the Law.
Paul changed all that. The Gentile-Christians did not observe the Law or sacrifice in the Temple, for one thing they were not allowed in the Temple. Paul understood that Yeshua was the sacrifice that ended the need for all sacrifices. The morals expressed in the New Testament apply to Christians. Some of those morals were also expressed in the Mosaic Laws and it would make sense that they carried over to Christianity.

Have a look at these:

Eph 2:15

Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Col 2:14

Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Col 2:20

Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

Heb 7:11-14

If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.

 

[LoveYeshua]

Paul was chosen AFTER Jesus finished His minitry to the JEWS.
This is why Paul is the "Apostile to the gentiles".
Are you a gentile?

So, Paul's Gospel is unique, because its given in the "time of the gentiles" before the Trib starts.
And Paul's Gospel, is "the Gospel of the GRACE of GOD".........that is the "preaching of the CROSS".
Paul was also given all the Church Doctrine to give to the body of Christ.

Peter was also a chosen apostle to the gentiles;

Act 15:7 And when there had been much questioning, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Brethren, ye know that a good while ago God made choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

Peter's gospel is the original message of Jesus, He lived with Christ during his Ministry, Peter preached All Jesus said and All Jesus did as Jesus himself requested.

Behold,

Do not diminish the authority of Peter and the original apostles. The authority Jesus gave to Peter and the Twelve is clearly recorded in the Gospels. These were not promises made later by men, but words spoken directly by the Lord Himself. Jesus first gave Peter the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, saying:

I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. (Matthew 16:19, ASV)

Later, Jesus extended the authority to bind and loose to the rest of the Twelve:

Verily I say unto you, What things soever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and what things soever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. (Matthew 18:18, ASV)

After His resurrection, Jesus entrusted these same apostles with His mission:

Jesus therefore said to them again, Peace be unto you: as the Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Spirit: whose soever sins ye forgive, they are forgiven unto them; whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained. (John 20:21-23, ASV)

Peter also received a unique commission that no one else did. Three times Jesus said to him:

Feed my lambs... Tend my sheep... Feed my sheep. (John 21:15-17, ASV)

Jesus also prayed specifically for Peter:
But I made supplication for thee, that thy faith fail not: and do thou, when once thou hast turned again, establish thy brethren. (Luke 22:32, ASV)

These responsibilities of the Highest importance were given directly by Christ himself.

When Judas had to be replaced, Peter explained the qualifications for becoming one of the Twelve:

Of the men therefore that have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and went out among us, beginning from the baptism of John, unto the day that he was received up from us, of these must one become a witness with us of his resurrection. (Acts 1:21-22, ASV)

The replacement had to have followed Jesus from the baptism of John until His ascension and be a witness of His resurrection. Matthias met these qualifications and was chosen.

Paul did not.

This is not an insult to Paul. It is simply what the Scriptures say. Paul was never one of the Twelve. He was never given the keys of the Kingdom. Jesus never told him to feed His sheep. Jesus never entrusted him with the authority to bind and loose. Those privileges were given to Peter and the Twelve during Christ's earthly ministry.

If your position depends on setting aside the clear words of Jesus in favor of later interpretations of Paul, then you have reversed the order God Himself established.

The Father said of Jesus:
And behold, a voice out of the heavens, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. (Matthew 3:17, ASV)

And later He commanded:

...This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. (Matthew 17:5, ASV)

The question is not whether Paul should be respected. The question is whose words carry the highest authority. God answered that question Himself: "Hear ye Him."

If a teaching attributed to anyone, whether Peter, Paul, or any other man, appears to conflict with the plain teaching of Jesus Christ, then the disciple of Christ must begin with the words of the Son, because He alone received all authority from the Father. Every other servant must be understood in light of Him, never the other way around.

In the end, every believer must answer one simple question: Whose words will have the final authority? God the Father has already answered that question. He did not say, "Hear Paul," or "Hear Peter." He said, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him." (Matthew 17:5, ASV). Peter himself declared, "Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life." (John 6:68, ASV). Jesus also proclaimed, "All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth." (Matthew 28:18, ASV). Therefore, every teaching, every doctrine, and every interpretation must first be tested against the clear words of Jesus Christ. The apostles were His witnesses and servants, not His replacements. They were sent to lead people to Christ, not away from Him. If we truly honor God the Father, we will do exactly what He commanded: we will hear His Son first, above every other voice.

 

[Grailhunter]

Have a look at these:

Eph 2:15

Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Col 2:14

Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Col 2:20

Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

Heb 7:11-14

If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.

Like is said, you were right as far as we are concerned, but it just that the cross did not blot out the Mosaic Law.

Now this one is close, but it is about Christians. Good Job.
Col 2:14
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

So a more interesting topic, what do you think happened when Yeshua passed on the cross?

 

[Grailhunter]

Peter was also a chosen apostle to the gentiles;

Act 15:7 And when there had been much questioning, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Brethren, ye know that a good while ago God made choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

Peter's gospel is the original message of Jesus, He lived with Christ during his Ministry, Peter preached All Jesus said and All Jesus did as Jesus himself requested.

Behold,

Do not diminish the authority of Peter and the original apostles. The authority Jesus gave to Peter and the Twelve is clearly recorded in the Gospels. These were not promises made later by men, but words spoken directly by the Lord Himself. Jesus first gave Peter the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, saying:

I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. (Matthew 16:19, ASV)

Later, Jesus extended the authority to bind and loose to the rest of the Twelve:

Verily I say unto you, What things soever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and what things soever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. (Matthew 18:18, ASV)

After His resurrection, Jesus entrusted these same apostles with His mission:

Jesus therefore said to them again, Peace be unto you: as the Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Spirit: whose soever sins ye forgive, they are forgiven unto them; whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained. (John 20:21-23, ASV)

Peter also received a unique commission that no one else did. Three times Jesus said to him:

Feed my lambs... Tend my sheep... Feed my sheep. (John 21:15-17, ASV)

Jesus also prayed specifically for Peter:
But I made supplication for thee, that thy faith fail not: and do thou, when once thou hast turned again, establish thy brethren. (Luke 22:32, ASV)

These responsibilities of the Highest importance were given directly by Christ himself.

When Judas had to be replaced, Peter explained the qualifications for becoming one of the Twelve:

Of the men therefore that have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and went out among us, beginning from the baptism of John, unto the day that he was received up from us, of these must one become a witness with us of his resurrection. (Acts 1:21-22, ASV)

The replacement had to have followed Jesus from the baptism of John until His ascension and be a witness of His resurrection. Matthias met these qualifications and was chosen.

Paul did not.

This is not an insult to Paul. It is simply what the Scriptures say. Paul was never one of the Twelve. He was never given the keys of the Kingdom. Jesus never told him to feed His sheep. Jesus never entrusted him with the authority to bind and loose. Those privileges were given to Peter and the Twelve during Christ's earthly ministry.

If your position depends on setting aside the clear words of Jesus in favor of later interpretations of Paul, then you have reversed the order God Himself established.

The Father said of Jesus:
And behold, a voice out of the heavens, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. (Matthew 3:17, ASV)

And later He commanded:

...This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. (Matthew 17:5, ASV)

The question is not whether Paul should be respected. The question is whose words carry the highest authority. God answered that question Himself: "Hear ye Him."

If a teaching attributed to anyone, whether Peter, Paul, or any other man, appears to conflict with the plain teaching of Jesus Christ, then the disciple of Christ must begin with the words of the Son, because He alone received all authority from the Father. Every other servant must be understood in light of Him, never the other way around.

It is important to take the scriptures as a whole. Yeshua chose Paul after the twelve Apostles and they created the Jewish-Christian sect. Obviously Yeshua saw there needed to be change and Paul was the man to do it. As a whole Christians today derive from the Gentile-Christians.....We do not sacrifice animals or practice polygamy or sell our daughters as sex slaves. And we believe Wedding Ceremonies are required for marriage. For these reasons the Apostles and Jewish-Christians would not fair well today.

 

[marks]

Verily I say unto you, What things soever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and what things soever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. (Matthew 18:18, ASV)

You may want to check the grammar on this one, there is an interesting surprise for the seeker.

Much love!

 

[LoveYeshua]

You may want to check the grammar on this one, there is an interesting surprise for the seeker.

Much love!

grammatically correct old english.. I think you probably meant the Greek verb tense? to make a point well make it then, lol

 

[LoveYeshua]

It is important to take the scriptures as a whole. Yeshua chose Paul after the twelve Apostles and they created the Jewish-Christian sect. Obviously Yeshua saw there needed to be change and Paul was the man to do it. As a whole Christians today derive from the Gentile-Christians.....We do not sacrifice animals or practice polygamy or sell our daughters as sex slaves. And we believe Wedding Ceremonies are required for marriage. For these reasons the Apostles and Jewish-Christians would not fair well today.

Your conclusion assumes something the Scriptures never say: that Jesus chose Paul because the teaching of the Twelve needed to be changed. Where did Jesus ever say that?

Jesus repeatedly affirmed the authority of the Twelve, not their replacement.

And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, that ye who have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit on the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.(Matthew 19:28, ASV)

If the Twelve were leading people in error or founding a "Jewish-Christian sect" that needed correction, why would Jesus promise them such an honor?

Before His ascension, Jesus gave them their mission:

Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. (Matthew 28:19-20, ASV)

Notice what they were to teach: everything Jesus commanded, not a new message that would later replace His teaching.

The claim that Jesus "saw there needed to be change" is not found anywhere in the Gospels. Jesus said:

Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil. (Matthew 5:17, ASV)

He also warned:

Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. (Matthew 24:35, ASV)

As for animal sacrifices, they ended because Jesus became the perfect sacrifice. That was accomplished by Christ Himself, not because Paul introduced a new religion.

Regarding polygamy, Jesus restored God's original design:

Have ye not read, that he who made them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and the two shall become one flesh? So that they are no more two, but one flesh. (Matthew 19:4-6, ASV)

Jesus pointed back to one man and one woman, not to multiple wives. i think its the second time I tell you this? yes?

The law concerning selling a daughter in Exodus 21 is also frequently misunderstood. It regulated servitude in ancient Israel under strict conditions. It was not permission to sell daughters as prostitutes or "sex slaves." To describe it that way misrepresents the text.

Finally, you say Christians today derive from the Gentile Christians rather than the apostles. Yet every Gospel, the book of Acts, and the teachings of Jesus that Christians treasure today were preserved and handed down through those very apostles. If they cannot be trusted, on what basis do we trust the New Testament at all?

The real question is not whether Paul was important. It is whether anyone, including Paul, was sent to replace or revise the teaching of Jesus and the Twelve. Jesus never said that. Instead, the Father declared, "This is my beloved Son... hear ye him." (Matthew 17:5, ASV). That remains the standard by which every teacher and every doctrine must be measured.

 

[marks]

grammatically correct old english.. I think you probably meant the Greek verb tense? to make a point well make it then, lol

That's for you to look at.

 

[LoveYeshua]

That's for you to look at.

i did

 

[Grailhunter]

Your conclusion assumes something the Scriptures never say: that Jesus chose Paul because the teaching of the Twelve needed to be changed. Where did Jesus ever say that?

Yeap you right. It was an observation, but what He taught was so drastically different I assume that Yeshua instructed him. Considering the Jewish-Christian beliefs died out and the Gentile-Christians took the helm of the church I am assuming that is what Yeshua wanted.

Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. (Matthew 28:19-20, ASV)

But they didn't they died out, it was the Gentile-Christian that taught the nations and all through history and today.

Jesus pointed back to one man and one woman, not to multiple wives. i think its the second time I tell you this? yes?

Yes the men usually started out with one wife and then some took more. No where in the scriptures is polygamy and concubinage condemned or stopped.

The law concerning selling a daughter in Exodus 21 is also frequently misunderstood. It regulated servitude in ancient Israel under strict conditions. It was not permission to sell daughters as prostitutes or "sex slaves." To describe it that way misrepresents the text.

The Mosaic Law regulated several aspects of polygamy and concubinage, that is the permission it was the Law. And no where does say in the law or in the storyline that daughters agreed to being sold. Just like the virgins taken in war, God gave them the virgins.

Finally, you say Christians today derive from the Gentile Christians rather than the apostles. Yet every Gospel, the book of Acts, and the teachings of Jesus that Christians treasure today were preserved and handed down through those very apostles. If they cannot be trusted, on what basis do we trust the New Testament at all?

As I said before, you have to take the Bible as a whole. Beyond that, the Gospels reflect the teachings and ministry of Yeshua and the Jewish-Christians reflect what they were taught by Yeshua and most rejected the teaching of the Apostle Paul. "Handed down through the Apostles" The Apostle Paul wrote or influenced 3/4 of the New Testament. Luke and Acts written by Luke.....Luke was a disciple of Paul and Peter was part of Paul's ministry.

The real question is not whether Paul was important. It is whether anyone, including Paul, was sent to replace or revise the teaching of Jesus and the Twelve. Jesus never said that. Instead, the Father declared, "This is my beloved Son... hear ye him." (Matthew 17:5, ASV). That remains the standard by which every teacher and every doctrine must be measured.

The fact remains that Paul did revise what Yeshua taught. Not to observe the Mosaic Law and Yeshua still sighted the letter of divorce and Paul taught there was no divorce. No process for divorce in Paul's ministry.

 

[LoveYeshua]

Yeap you right. It was an observation, but what He taught was so drastically different I assume that Yeshua instructed him. Considering the Jewish-Christian beliefs died out and the Gentile-Christians took the helm of the church I am assuming that is what Yeshua wanted.



But they didn't they died out, it was the Gentile-Christian that taught the nations and all through history and today.



Yes the men usually started out with one wife and then some took more. No where in the scriptures is polygamy and concubinage condemned or stopped.



The Mosaic Law regulated several aspects of polygamy and concubinage, that is the permission it was the Law. And no where does say in the law or in the storyline that daughters agreed to being sold. Just like the virgins taken in war, God gave them the virgins.



As I said before, you have to take the Bible as a whole. Beyond that, the Gospels reflect the teachings and ministry of Yeshua and the Jewish-Christians reflect what they were taught by Yeshua and most rejected the teaching of the Apostle Paul. "Handed down through the Apostles" The Apostle Paul wrote or influenced 3/4 of the New Testament. Luke and Acts written by Luke.....Luke was a disciple of Paul and Peter was part of Paul's ministry.




The fact remains that Paul did revise what Yeshua taught. Not to observe the Mosaic Law and Yeshua still sighted the letter of divorce and Paul taught there was no divorce. No process for divorce in Paul's ministry.

You are saying Paul revised what Jesus taught, but where does Jesus ever say, "After I leave, Paul will change My teachings"? He never does. Jesus' last command to the apostles was the opposite: "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you." (Matthew 28:20, ASV)

If Paul's writings appear to conflict with Jesus, should we conclude that Jesus changed His mind, or should we interpret Paul in a way that agrees with Jesus? The Bible itself tells us to begin with Christ, not the other way around.

Regarding divorce, Jesus clearly allowed one exception: "Whosoever shall put away his wife, except for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery."(Matthew 19:9, ASV)
If someone says Paul removed even the exception Jesus gave, then that interpretation of Paul cannot be correct, because a servant cannot overrule his Master.

You also say the Jewish Christians disappeared, therefore Paul must have replaced their teaching. But truth is not decided by which group became larger. In the days of Noah, only eight people were right. In the days of Elijah, only a remnant remained faithful. Numbers have never determined truth.

Jesus warned us about the standard by which every teacher is judged: "He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my sayings, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I spake, the same shall judge him in the last day." (John 12:48, ASV)

Christ said His words will judge us. That means every later teacher, including Paul, must be understood in harmony with Jesus, never as correcting or revising Him. Jesus is the Master; the apostles are His servants. The servant explains the Master's teaching, but he does not replace it.

 

[Grailhunter]

You are saying Paul revised what Jesus taught, but where does Jesus ever say, "After I leave, Paul will change My teachings"? He never does. Jesus' last command to the apostles was the opposite: "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you." (Matthew 28:20, ASV)

He doesn't, but that is what happened. He does tell His Apostles....I have a lot more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.

If Paul's writings appear to conflict with Jesus, should we conclude that Jesus changed His mind, or should we interpret Paul in a way that agrees with Jesus? The Bible itself tells us to begin with Christ, not the other way around.

The Bible itself tells us to begin with Christ,.....The bible begins with Yahweh and the Mosaic Law, where women were property and sold by their fathers.
Change is not conflict. People like to think that nothing changes but the whole Bible is about continuous change. Why didn't Yeshua go to Adam and Eve and start salvation then?
What is the alternative.....scrap the majority of the New Testament?

Regarding divorce, Jesus clearly allowed one exception: "Whosoever shall put away his wife, except for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery."(Matthew 19:9, ASV)
If someone says Paul removed even the exception Jesus gave, then that interpretation of Paul cannot be correct, because a servant cannot overrule his Master.

First off beware of the word fornication.....it is not in the scriptures. They are talking about adultery.
I did not say that he removed adultery for a reason to leave your spouse. I said the law of the letter of divorce
Mosaic Law did not carry over to Christianity.

You also say the Jewish Christians disappeared, therefore Paul must have replaced their teaching. But truth is not decided by which group became larger. In the days of Noah, only eight people were right. In the days of Elijah, only a remnant remained faithful. Numbers have never determined truth.

The Jewish-Christians for the most part did not want non-Jews to be Christians. Gentile-Christians were not allowed in the Temple.....Passover activities in the Temple and synagogues.
And probably replaced is the wrong word.....Yeshua went to the trouble to instruct Paul regarding saving the world. Without Paul we would not be saved or we would like the Jewish-Christians, still sacrificing animals, multiple wives and selling our daughters and not requiring wedding ceremonies to be married. Paul's ministry took Christianity to the world.

613 Mosaic Laws, you need to take a look at what the Jewish-Christians were following.

Jesus warned us about the standard by which every teacher is judged: "He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my sayings, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I spake, the same shall judge him in the last day." (John 12:48, ASV)

Good warning but accepting Paul is not rejecting Yeshua.

Christ said His words will judge us. That means every later teacher, including Paul, must be understood in harmony with Jesus, never as correcting or revising Him. Jesus is the Master; the apostles are His servants. The servant explains the Master's teaching, but he does not replace it.

Paul did as instruct by Yeshua. So Paul was in harmony with Yeshua.

 

[Grailhunter]

If Paul's writings appear to conflict with Jesus, should we conclude that Jesus changed His mind, or should we interpret Paul in a way that agrees with Jesus? The Bible itself tells us to begin with Christ, not the other way around.

It all happened the way it was intended to happen. The initial intent was to save and convert the Jews. If Yeshua would have included the preachings of Paul in His ministry, the Jews would have done little but stone Him.
Some can say that Paul's teachings was shocking, but to the Jews it was not as shocking as Yeshua and what He preached. A God walking among them? The Son of God! The very concept was sacrilegious to them.
The Jews were expecting for Elijah to come in a flaming chariot and introduce the Messiah to the nation of Isreal.
The Jews were expecting for the Messiah to be a human Warlord King that would deliver them from their oppressors and destroy them during the "Terrible Day of the Lord" None of it happened that way.
In their minds Elijah was senior and more important than the Messiah.
Yeshua had enough shocking hurdles to deal with, the Son of God with them and the introduction of another God, the Holy Spirit. If Yeshua would preached the things that Paul preached He probably would not have had Apostles or disciples and no hope of saving the Jews.

So it happened the way it was supposed to. So the message of the New Testament is one whole message, a message of change, a message that included us.

 

[Lizbeth]

Like is said, you were right as far as we are concerned, but it just that the cross did not blot out the Mosaic Law.

Now this one is close, but it is about Christians. Good Job.
Col 2:14
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

So a more interesting topic, what do you think happened when Yeshua passed on the cross?

Heb 8:13
In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Vanished away in 70AD I believe. God no longer "requires" the Jews to act out the types/shadows of the heavenly reality in the ordinances of temple/tabernacle worship services and rituals, sacrifices, and keeping of feast days etc. It is no longer His will for them because the reality and substance those ordinances were pointing ahead to came in the person of Jesus and His gospel. They haven't even had the ark of the covenant for eons.....that was only a type/shadow of the spiritual reality/substance too, the Messiah/Christ. God's will is that the Jews and all mankind enter into the NEW covenant, if they will.

What happened at the cross was the rending of the veil........making the way for a new paradigm, no longer the old one......a new way to enter the real Holy of Holies. Though I don't know what you have in mind with your question.

 

[Grailhunter]

Heb 8:13
In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Vanished away in 70AD I believe. God no longer "requires" the Jews to act out the types/shadows of the heavenly reality in the ordinances of temple/tabernacle worship services and rituals, sacrifices, and keeping of feast days etc. It is no longer His will for them because the reality and substance those ordinances were pointing ahead to came in the person of Jesus and His gospel. They haven't even had the ark of the covenant for eons.....that was only a type/shadow of the spiritual reality/substance too, the Messiah/Christ. God's will is that the Jews and all mankind enter into the NEW covenant, if they will.

What happened at the cross was the rending of the veil........making the way for a new paradigm, no longer the old one......a new way to enter the real Holy of Holies. Though I don't know what you have in mind with your question.

That was said by Paul. And it will go away, and even Yeshua said that when all things are fulfilled, but the Jews still follow some variant of the Mosaic Laws today.

What happened at the cross was the rending of the veil........making the way for a new paradigm, no longer the old one......a new way to enter the real Holy of Holies. Though I don't know what you have in mind with your question.

It was an open-ended question. At Yeshua's passing the veil was torn in two, indicating that Yahweh was no longer separated from us. Yeshua paid for the sins of Mankind. From then on judgement and forgiveness for sins was Yeshua's to deal with. Up to then only God and Angels were in Heaven. Yeshua opened the gates to Heaven to Mankind. And saved Christians became the adopted son and daughters of God.

 

[LoveYeshua]

It all happened the way it was intended to happen. The initial intent was to save and convert the Jews. If Yeshua would have included the preachings of Paul in His ministry, the Jews would have done little but stone Him.
Some can say that Paul's teachings was shocking, but to the Jews it was not as shocking as Yeshua and what He preached. A God walking among them? The Son of God! The very concept was sacrilegious to them.
The Jews were expecting for Elijah to come in a flaming chariot and introduce the Messiah to the nation of Isreal.
The Jews were expecting for the Messiah to be a human Warlord King that would deliver them from their oppressors and destroy them during the "Terrible Day of the Lord" None of it happened that way.
In their minds Elijah was senior and more important than the Messiah.
Yeshua had enough shocking hurdles to deal with, the Son of God with them and the introduction of another God, the Holy Spirit. If Yeshua would preached the things that Paul preached He probably would not have had Apostles or disciples and no hope of saving the Jews.

So it happened the way it was supposed to. So the message of the New Testament is one whole message, a message of change, a message that included us.

Please stop denigrating Jesus the messiah = GOD

The problem with this view is that it requires us to believe that Jesus did not fully reveal the Father's will and that Paul later completed or even changed His message. Jesus never spoke of Paul in any way during his ministry, before his ascension to Heaven He had the 12 chosen by him for this Paul was not part of Jesus' ministry before his ascension and that is a fact.

Jesus said: For I have not spoken from myself; but the Father that sent me, he hath given me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. (John 12:49 ASV)

If every word Jesus spoke came from the Father, what teaching was left for Paul to reveal that Jesus could not?

Jesus also declared: All things have been delivered unto me of my Father. (Matthew 11:27 ASV)

And after His resurrection He said: All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth. (Matthew 28:18 ASV)

Not some authority. All authority.

The suggestion that Jesus could not teach certain truths because the Jews were not ready is also contrary to Scripture. Jesus repeatedly taught things that offended the religious leaders. He called them blind guides, hypocrites, and children of the devil. He openly declared that He existed before Abraham, that He and the Father are one, that He would judge the world, and that eternal life depended on following Him. They attempted to stone Him several times because of what He taught.

Jesus never softened the truth to make it more acceptable. The claim that "Jesus would not have had disciples if He had preached what Paul preached" is only speculation. Scripture never says this. In fact, Jesus often lost followers because His teachings were difficult: From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. (John 6:66 ASV)

Yet He did not change His message.

The New Testament presents Jesus as the complete revelation of God, not as someone whose teaching needed to be corrected or expanded later.

God... hath at the end of these days spoken unto us in his Son. (Hebrews 1:1-2 ASV)

And the Father Himself gave only one instruction concerning whom we are to follow: This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. (Matthew 17:5 ASV)

The apostles were sent to bear witness to Christ and teach what He commanded, not to introduce a different message.

Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations... teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you. (Matthew 28:19-20 ASV)

The standard for every Christian is not, "What came later?" The standard is, "What did the Son of God teach?" Every teacher, including every apostle, must be understood in harmony with Him, never the other way around like you are doing.