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Military

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Joyful, Jan 8, 2007.

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  1. Joyful

    Joyful New Member

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    As Christians, we have responsibility to be a good witnesses for the Lord. Jesus also teaches us to "love your enemy". When we consider those two, I don't believe it is biblical for Christians to join the military and kill our enemies like our enemies do. In secular world, it is perfectly ok to have military to defend their country. But we Christians should not have the same kind of mentality like the world.(and I am not talking about those already in who aren't christian and then become christian)I believe as Christians, when we approve and join the military we are committing a grave sin, IMHO.
     
  2. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    So what are we to think about the Israelities and their army in the Old Testament? The same one that God sanctioned to be sent into battle? Loving your enemy doesn't mean practicing ignorance. The disciples around Jesus were known to carry weapons and that is Scripturally documented. Christians are not second class citizens that are supposed to lay down and die. Even when Jesus was given over to the Sanhedrin and Pilate, he made it a point to say how this was being allowed. You can love your enemy but you also are to protect your children, family, and other loved ones. You absolutely are not committing a sin when you join the army to protect your freedom and right to worship Our Father. Using the Bible is as an excuse is nothing more than making an excuse for cowardice.
     
  3. Joyful

    Joyful New Member

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    I have heard many times this kind of arguement. When we consider our discipleship, we should learn from Jesus' and his disciples' examples. In Old Testament times, God directly ordered killing of enemies; God knows exactly what He is doing. Jesus never killed anyone, neither did His disciples. We can always use the Bible any way we want. I just hope you consider our mission for the Lord as evangelists. We have lost people to reach out to. When we look like lunatics like muslims, do you think we can really look godly in world's eys? How can we reach out to the lost when we look like bunch of hypocrites? We have a responsibility to preach to the world about God and Jesus' Love. Militay and love don't mix.
     
  4. Broken Crusader

    Broken Crusader New Member

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    Sorry Faithful1, I have to jump in here. There is such thing as justified war. And fighting against terrorism is hardly the same as the evil of terrorism we fight against. You are right, Islamic extremists are lunatics. Defending a greater ideal such as peace and the wonderful quality of life we enjoy here in North America, is not lunacy. I like living here. I work with Israelis, the stresses they had to endure in Israel, I could do without. My best freinds brother lives in Zefed (spelling may be wrong) his neighbor's house was destroyed in the last war. I can do without that too. Fact is we cannot lie down, we must defend our freedoms, our God given freedoms.This is going to unpopular maybe with everyone here, but I believe that the Crusades were defensive wars. Muslims of the time were encroaching on Christendom. Sure in every war mistakes are made, present and past, but that does not make them unjust.It also does not prevent us from loving our enemys. God loves us, but He also makes us lay down in green pastures when we stray from Him.As Swampfox pointed out, there were many God endorsed wars in the bible. Just because Christ did not take one up does not mean He was against them. Christ did not marry and have children, where would be 2000 years later?It may be a simplistic view, but there it is.
     
  5. Joyful

    Joyful New Member

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    You think the military is unpopular? Then why are so many people in America for the military and those who are against it get gang-attacked? If politicians speak againt the military they will not be elected in America.We can always make up excuses to support the military. But we disgrace God when we behave like lunatic muslims. When we kill our enemies we are no different from Muslims. We have a responsibility to uphold God and Jesus' reputation of being Holy and Loving.The military is nothing but politics. We don't know exactly what is going on between the countries. We cannot love our enemy by killing them. Your kind of justification works only for your people and country.
     
  6. ROS777

    ROS777 New Member

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    Jesus said one sword is enough. ( New testament )Sometimes loving enemies means tough love.God is not a pacifist; he punishes the wicked.Supposing a baby was going to be hurt by a rapist andto prevent the attack, you had to kill the aggressor. Would you save the baby?Or your loved one was being attacked by a gang; would you shoot to save your girlfriend, wife or mother?Sometimes we have to do the tough thing in life, not what's easy or comfortable for us.
     
  7. Joyful

    Joyful New Member

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    We can always justify everything. We have responsibility to uphold God and Jesus' reputation. We should not behave like the world. If we are Jesus' servants He will give us discernment how to defend ourselves and others without killing anyone.It is not easy to follow Jesus' teachings.
     
  8. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    I have heard many times this kind of arguement. When we consider our discipleship, we should learn from Jesus' and his disciples' examples. In Old Testament times, God directly ordered killing of enemies; God knows exactly what He is doing. Jesus never killed anyone, neither did His disciples. We can always use the Bible any way we want.
    Who is Jesus? John 10:30I and my Father are one. Unlike many of the Islamic militias and armies, the purpose of others armies is not to go out and slaughter the nonbelievers. There is absolutely nothing wrong with defending loved ones and their right to know God. If you cannot see the difference there, then the enemy has already one before his workers ever fired a shot.
    We cannot love our enemy by killing them.
    And by your suggestion, you are implying that we should love our enemies more than our friends, family...and even children. Apparently we should not take up arms to defend them because we should do the "Christly" thing and lay down while our children are raped and killed. I am sure your response will be God protects the righteous from all things? Are you familiar with the book of Job in that case? God himself says Job was a righteous man yet he was subjected to treatment far worse than any of us probably ever will be. It's the same reason that you don't run out into a tornado or hurricane and scream "God protect me." Only a fool would do that and God is not obligated to protect that person. He gave you the common sense to know better.
     
  9. Joyful

    Joyful New Member

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    (SwampFox;6032)
    Who is Jesus? John 10:30I and my Father are one. Unlike many of the Islamic militias and armies, the purpose of others armies is not to go out and slaughter the nonbelievers. There is absolutely nothing wrong with defending loved ones and their right to know God. If you cannot see the difference there, then the enemy has already one before his workers ever fired a shot.
    When do you use Jesus teaching of "love your enemy"?
    And by your suggestion, you are implying that we should love our enemies more than our friends, family...and even children. Apparently we should not take up arms to defend them because we should do the "Christly" thing and lay down while our children are raped and killed.
    We can love both. We don't have to kill anyone.
    I am sure your response will be God protects the righteous from all things? Are you familiar with the book of Job in that case? God himself says Job was a righteous man yet he was subjected to treatment far worse than any of us probably ever will be. It's the same reason that you don't run out into a tornado or hurricane and scream "God protect me." Only a fool would do that and God is not obligated to protect that person. He gave you the common sense to know better.
    What does Job have anything to do with Jesus' teaching of "love your enemy"?Do you think most churches are doing God's will by killing their enemy?According to evangelist Ray Comfort, only less than 2% of churchgoers are evangelizing. Those churchgoers are of congregations who appove of the military. It seems that churches are supporting the military because if they won't support military they will lose most of their members.
     
  10. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    faithful 1Do you think God is going to look kindly on you ? Who would let his brother,neighbor,or friend go to war and fight for you to have the freedom to sit there and claim you were being a good christian,so let them that are less of a good Christain die for you. So you are capable of reading anothers heart and mind and making a judgement call that you are the better christain than one that joins the military. If you think God works that way you have much to learn.
     
  11. ROS777

    ROS777 New Member

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    (Faithful1;6020)
    We can always justify everything. We have responsibility to uphold God and Jesus' reputation. We should not behave like the world. If we are Jesus' servants He will give us discernment how to defend ourselves and others without killing anyone.It is not easy to follow Jesus' teachings.
    I think you're putting us on.You are just trying to get a response, aren't you.
     
  12. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    When do you use Jesus teaching of "love your enemy"?
    All the time. Love is a complex emotion and involves a lot more than just words. Love ranges from the discipline of a child when they are wrong, praying that one's enemies come to light, protecting those that you love, and a whole lot more. Ever heard of tough love? It's "love thine enemies" and not "love thine enemies and forsake thy friends and family."
    We can love both. We don't have to kill anyone.
    Explain to me how I could love the attacker of a loved one as I stand there and watch them commit the act? Jesus himself said there is no better sacrifice than if a man lay down his life for another. Explain the context of this according to your interpretations please. Are we to politely ask the rapist if we can trade places with the victim? If he says no are we to continue merrily on our way with a guilty conscience? What if a solider of Nazi Germany had slaughtered a family member while we let them invade all the while praying for God's intervention to protect us fools? You wouldn't be here. You'd never have the chance to witness to anyone and to bring that person to the light of God.When you give your life for someone by defending their right to life and right to worship, what exactly are you doing?
     
  13. n2thelight

    n2thelight Well-Known Member

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    Faithful1I think you are very disillusionedQuote"I just hope you consider our mission for the Lord as evangelists. We have lost people to reach out to. When we look like lunatics like muslims, do you think we can really look godly in world's eys? How can we reach out to the lost when we look like bunch of hypocrites? We have a responsibility to preach to the world about God and Jesus' Love. Militay and love don't mix."ReplyLet me ask you a few questions ,How can we teach the Word if we are not free?And how can we remain free if we didnt fight(wars)?'I don't think we (U.S.)started any of them,but we won them all,how do you think we won them if God was not on our side,so to say that christians should not be in the military is foolishnessDo you know what a christian had to go through to worship God in a communist governmentNow think about your life now and how it would have been had we lost any of those wars.You do a major dis-service to all the men and women who died in order for you to remain free,and able to voice your opinions,and that is so sad.Freedom is not free,and we as christians our not wimps,we have a right to defend ourselves,and believe me I would have no problem killing my enemy and loving him at the same time.You really need to wake up
     
  14. Joyful

    Joyful New Member

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    (kriss;6040)
    faithful 1Do you think God is going to look kindly on you ? Who would let his brother,neighbor,or friend go to war and fight for you to have the freedom to sit there and claim you were being a good christian,so let them that are less of a good Christain die for you. So you are capable of reading anothers heart and mind and making a judgement call that you are the better christain than one that joins the military. If you think God works that way you have much to learn.
    I don't judge how God will do to me. It is up to Him. I am just doing my duty to folow how I read the Bible. We don't know whether who are reading the Bible wrongly or not, will we? We have responsibiulity to speak the whole truth. I believe the curches are committing a grave sin against God and Jesus by approving their people to join the military. Of course we always think we are the ones with God. That's what our enemies are saying too.
     
  15. Joyful

    Joyful New Member

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    Well, I believe mainstream churches should start to read the New Testament with open mind and wholehearted devotion. It seems that we don't know what it takes to follow Jesus as a whole. It is sad indeed as Jesus' followers.
     
  16. Joyful

    Joyful New Member

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    (SwampFox;6047)
    All the time. Love is a complex emotion and involves a lot more than just words. Love ranges from the discipline of a child when they are wrong, praying that one's enemies come to light, protecting those that you love, and a whole lot more. Ever heard of tough love? It's "love thine enemies" and not "love thine enemies and forsake thy friends and family."Explain to me how I could love the attacker of a loved one as I stand there and watch them commit the act?
    I never said you just stand there and watch. I believe God will give us wisdom and discernment how we handle the situation. That's why we are reading the Bible and praying every day.
    Jesus himself said there is no better sacrifice than if a man lay down his life for another. Explain the context of this according to your interpretations please. Are we to politely ask the rapist if we can trade places with the victim? If he says no are we to continue merrily on our way with a guilty conscience?
    Soldiers are not sacrificing themself completely unselfishly. They are also killing their enemy in exchange. It is not self-sacrificial at all. It is completely different, my dear, not to mention they are getting compensation grately. I know this because my husband is retired military.
    What if a solider of Nazi Germany had slaughtered a family member while we let them invade all the while praying for God's intervention to protect us fools? You wouldn't be here. You'd never have the chance to witness to anyone and to bring that person to the light of God.
    I repeat the same, God wants us to deal with what we've got right now. I believe a lot of Christians followed Hitler's command too, and killed brothers and sisters in Christ at the same time..
    When you give your life for someone by defending their right to life and right to worship, what exactly are you doing?
    What I am doing? I am spreading Jesus as much as I can. I even have volunteer oversea mission for the Lord.
     
  17. n2thelight

    n2thelight Well-Known Member

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    Faithful1Hello to ya.Im gonna leave you with this study,hope it helps you to understandWHEN A CHRISTIAN TAKES A LIFEStudy by Nick Goggin As Christians We can find comfort and understanding from Gods Word, the Bible, if we ever find ourselves in the unenviable position of having taken another's life; in self defense, defense of another's life, by accident or otherwise unintentionally causing a death, or any other justifiable circumstances that may arise; as long as we stick to God's Word and do things the way he instructed us to in His written Word, the Bible. This in-depth study of God's Word and what it states regarding the justifiable taking of another's life would sound controversial to some. But if we diligently take every word and thought from our Fathers Word, the Bible; we can be assured that we are operating under his will, and have his blessings. Rather than relying on the deceptions and misinformation that are taught in most of the so-called religious institutions of today. Those who teach as well as judge others from the "traditions of men," rather than the true Word of God. Thus causing many a Christian to be overburdened with guilt that he does not have to carry. And this may even drive some of them away from the Word of God because they might feel as though they are doomed anyway, and say within themselves: "so why should I bother to try?" It is a terrible thing to do, to take away the hope from one of God's beloved children. There are times in some decent God fearing Christian's lives that it may become necessary for them to take a life. This is a fact in the real world, and Christians can not make it disappear by burying their head under a pew, they just lose their credibility. These reasons can range from; unintentional accidents, self defense, or in the case of the police officer or good Samaritan; the defense of another's life. As well also in the Judicial System regarding a juror having to "voting" in a death penalty case (Capitol punishment). And Also a soldier who must kill to survive in a war against a hedonistic Communist Government; those Governments that would outlaw the very worship of God and Jesus. And also against the many regimes that starve, torture, and murder God's children for the most selfish of reasons. Do not think for one moment that God does not hear the cries of the oppressed and the victims in this world, without sending them deliverance! And if God sent your Countries Armed Forces to liberate His oppressed tortured people, then why on earth would you have the soldier, whom you pay salary to, carry guilt for killing the enemy? Or if you had occasion to be in a position where you were able to save the innocent by killing the guilty, I hope you don't feel like a sinner for doing it. Do you think that God would rather let the suffering of the weak and helpless continue on, just so that you can stand before Him on judgment Day and say: "I didn't have to take the life of a malefactor?" Don't be ridiculous. What then does God tell us of these protectors? Does he hold these protectors who've had to kill; responsible of murder, like the criminal that would rob a man and kill him? Does he hold these protectors in guilt awaiting the judgment of eternal damnation? Of course not, and there are also many people through a moment of lapse of good judgment who find themselves in the unenviable position of being responsible for the death of a fellow Human Being by accident. All throughout history many a soldier has killed in battle. Police officers around the world are making life and death decisions daily involving the use of deadly force in the course of their duties and responsibilities. And finally, any citizen of this free country may be called to their civic duty to sit on a jury that may be hearing a death penalty case. If not properly armed with the true Word of God, any one of these "protectors of the weak and of the victims of this world" could second guess their decisions and spend years carrying false guilt within themselves, and even misguidedly believe that they are damned to Hell! I assure you that the victims of this world who are so quickly forgotten about in favor of criminals rights; and the good Bible loving Christian peoples who are over shadowed by the misinformed pacifist Clergy that so seem to be in prominence now; are not forgotten of by God! In God's eyes, victims and Christians are not second class citizens! Good must triumph over evil, and sometimes that means taking the life of a malefactor. In the case of the murderer, God says: Send him to me! In [1st Epistle of John 3:15], it states that "No murderer has eternal life abiding in him." That means that the murderer must work it out with the Father after he dies and God makes the decision as to whether or not he will be forgiven. What a terrible place this country would be if our soldiers stopped defending, our police stopped protecting, and our Christians stopped serving on juries! Lets ask for a word of wisdom from our Heavenly Father in Jesus Christ's name as we begin our study. You will observe that I will be referring to Hebrew #'s and Greek #'s. These are the word numbers from the Strong's Greek and Hebrew Dictionary Every word that appears in your King James version Bible was assigned a number by Dr. Strong, and in his dictionary concordance he gives the English reader the capability of understanding the truest definition from the original languages of the ancient Biblical manuscripts. This study tool is probably the second most important study tool after the Bible. For a more complete explanation of this subject see the: "Preface study to the In-depth Bible study series." A reasonable place to begin would be: "THOU SHALT NOT KILL." One of the ten commandments as it is written in [Exodus 20:13]. The word "kill," as it is used here is Hebrew word #7523, pronounced (raw-tsakh'), and it translates: To kill a human being, be a murderer, to murder, OR; to manslay, to be a manslayer, depending on the circumstances. That narrows down a large parameter for the statement "THOU SHALT NOT KILL." But Jesus brings it out in total clarity for us in the New Testament so we can have no misunderstanding of God's commandment to us. Let's go to [Matthew 19:18]. When Jesus was asked how one could find everlasting life, Jesus answered: "THOU SHALT DO NO MURDER..." (and he continues the verse by naming others of the ten commandments). Bear in mind, that we are now in the Greek language of the New Testament. This word "murder" as it is used here, is Greek word #5406, pronounced (fon-yooce'); and it is defined as: A murderer (always of criminal [or at least intentional] homicide). Jesus could not be any clearer than that! The Bible speaks in many places of the difference between killing a man and murdering a man. We will pick two of them and do an in-depth word study of some of the key words. The key defined words listed will have (parentheses) around a word number, so you can compare them to the Greek and Hebrew definitions that I have included below. Example: kill (Hebrew word # 7523). Bear in mind that these definitions apply only to the specific verse that they are mentioned in, and do not "necessarily" apply to that same word as it appears in other places in the Bible. For as we covered in the: "Preface study to the In-depth Bible studies," In-depth Bible study, the translators of the English Bible Old Testament took nine different Hebrew words that each had a distinct and finite meaning and translated them all into the one English word "Kill." Thus you begin to see the importance of a Strong's Concordance for all fruitful in-depth Bible study. Now below are the words that are specific to our present study. SLAYER: (raw-tsakh') Hebrew word # 7523; (this word has a dual meaning, depending on the circumstance were it is used). It always means to kill a human being. then it means #1 or #2 below: To murder, or be a murderer (if done with hate and premeditation, likened to our present day criminal homicide). To slay, to be a manslayer (if done at unawares or without malice or intent, likened to our present day involuntary manslaughter ). MURDERER: (same Hebrew word # 7523 as above, but translated into a different English word. See above word). SLAY: (mooth) Hebrew word # 4191; to put to death, cause to die, must die, worthy of death, must kill, slay surely and very suddenly. (Likened to our present day execution. A death sentence carried out). DIE: (same Hebrew word # 4191 as above, but translated into a different English word. See above word). SMITE: (naw-kaw') Hebrew word # 5221; to strike repeatedly, kill; to slaughter or to murder depending on the circumstances or reason. SMITING & SLEW: Are both words taken from: Hebrew word # 5221; (as in above word), in a different tense. They always mean to strike, beat repeatedly to the point that death is immanent. The further meaning of the word then goes 2 ways: To murder or punish depending on the reason for it, or the mind-set of the individual doing it (intent). and: To kill or wound, depending on the severity of the beating. In these next two examples when one of the fore-mentioned words come up, the Hebrew word number will be placed next to it in (parentheses), so you can reference it to the original translation/definition. Lets go to the book of Deuteronomy and read [Duet 19:1-5]. This describes the ordering of the people to set aside "cities of refuge" apart from their cities, where a person is to "flee" and live in for one generation, away from the family of the man that he kills unintentionally and without premeditation. In verse 4 below, it tells that the SLAYER (Hebrew word # 7523) shall live. In verse 5 below, it gives an example of an accidental killing. It states that one who kills in this manner should flee to one of the "cities of refuge", and live. Thus, God does not want him to be put to death:Deut 19:1-5 1 When the LORD thy God hath cut off the nations, whose land the LORD thy God giveth thee, and thou succeedest them, and dwellest in their cities, and in their houses; 2 Thou shalt separate three cities for thee in the midst of thy land, which the LORD thy God giveth thee to possess it. 3 Thou shalt prepare thee a way, and divide the coasts of thy land, which the LORD thy God giveth thee to inherit, into three parts, that every slayer may flee thither. 4 And this is the case of the slayer, which shall flee thither, that he may live: Whoso killeth his neighbour ignorantly, whom he hated not in time past;5 As when a man goeth into the wood with his neighbour to hew wood, and his hand fetcheth a stroke with the axe to cut down the tree, and the head slippeth from the helve, and lighteth upon his neighbour, that he die; he shall flee unto one of those cities, and live: In verse 6 below, " the avenger of the blood" is mentioned. This is a Hebraism (figure of speech) meaning that the next closest family member of the deceased man, who's duty, right and responsibility it was to put to death the murderer of their Kinfolk.Deut 19: 66 Lest the avenger of the blood pursue the slayer, while his heart is hot, and overtake him, because the way is long, and slay him; whereas he was not worthy of death, inasmuch as he hated him not in time past. The reason that God had them set aside "cities of refuge" is because if someone accidentally killed a man and did it at unawares with no malice in his heart or premeditation, he should move to a different location so that the family members of the deceased man did not have to look upon the killer of their loved one every day. Because their grief might cause them to murder the man who accidentally killed their relative. This would put them in jeopardy of being judged by God for murder. Because God said that an unintentional killer should not be put to death, but that he should live. Reading on in verses 7 through 12 below, still in this 19th chapter of Deuteronomy. In verse 11, we see the act of murder described, and see how God distinguishes criminal premeditated murder from involuntary or accidental manslaughter. Read verse 11, and we see the word SMITE: (Hebrew word # 5221). It states in the end of verse 11 and into the beginning of verse 12; that if a murderer a criminal homicide offender tries to flee into one of the cities of refuge, that the community is to retrieve him and deliver him into the hands of the avenger of the blood, so that he may DIE ( Hebrew word # 4191 ). The community is to help the avenger of the blood to accomplish the death of a murderer: Deut 19:7-12 7 Wherefore I command thee, saying, Thou shalt separate three cities for thee. 8 And if the LORD thy God enlarge thy coast, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers, and give thee all the land which he promised to give unto thy fathers; 9 If thou shalt keep all these commandments to do them, which I command thee this day, to love the LORD thy God, and to walk ever in his ways; then shalt thou add three cities more for thee, beside these three: 10 That innocent blood be not shed in thy land, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance, and so blood be upon thee. 11 But if any man hate his neighbour, and lie in wait for him, and rise up against him, and smite him mortally that he die, and fleeth into one of these cities: 12 Then the elders of his city shall send and fetch him thence, and deliver him into the hand of the avenger of blood, that he may die. This is comparable to our modern day system of the police department and the judicial system. In our society we do not let the family members carry out the executions, we have the State authorities acting as the "avenger of the blood". In verse 13 below, God himself tells us not to pity the execution of a murderer. I personally wonder why certain so-called religious people protest the executions of murderers when Gods law clearly calls for it. God states that when you execute murderers, these things stop happening amongst you [Duet 19:20], by way of the example that it sets to others who would have no respect for life. By letting murderers live and prolonging their sentences, it causes more people to go out and commit crimes, and even kill, because they never really see the consequences of their actions or they are allowed back out to prey upon society. So in a bizarre twist of fate; the weak kneed, spiritually ungrounded, Biblically illiterate preachers of today are actually causing more crimes to be committed and more people end up being molested, raped and murdered. These pacifists are thus helping the work of satan himself. Not all Preachers are like this mind you, but I speak of the "candle vigil against capitol punishment" Ministers and their misguided so-called religious disciples, who follow them, and their perversion of Almighty God's Doctrine that was laid out for us in the Holy Scriptures. Perhaps if people understood that Capitol punishment is not meant by God to be a tool of "pay-back" by a vengeful society upon a guilty murderer, but rather God's way of setting acceptable rules of conduct in a community. And a rule not enforced is a rule not followed. Also, God demands that a murderer is executed and sent to Him because He has much to say to this one who took a life and all the offspring that were to come through that victim. Not to mention the pain and suffering that this act caused those who are left behind, many of them blaming God for the loss. Please tell me that you are not one who would have them released, only to kill again. I think a lot of the liberal pacifist's among the Christians who are against killing killers are missing an important point. Those murder victim's may have not yet have found their way to Christ. For many don't become "saved" until a later age. That adds a whole other dimension to the ending of the victim's life prematurely, does it not? Or don't you care. All that some so-called "Christians" seem to think about is the fate of the murderer. It's like they feel that the victim is already dead, so the "good Christian" has to try to save the one left, the murderer. So they fight the execution, and 10-20 years later the murderer gets out on good behavior, overcrowding, for being a "changed man," or for being sorry and does it again. I'm sure God would be so proud of the Christian that took it upon himself to contradict His law, as God has to try to comfort another family of yet another victim who will undoubtedly be blaming Him for allowing it to happen. If things were done God's way, a lot of these things would cease to happen. That's what God says, what does you preacher/teacher say? Understand that satan manipulates emotions in many who do not even know it. They will know someday. Deut 19:20-21 20 And those which remain shall hear, and fear, and shall henceforth commit no more any such evil among you. 21 And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. (KJV) If they don't have the stomach for "the consequences of crime," then they would much better spend their time and prayers on the victims of these crimes. They sure seem to have down real good the stomach for the suffering of the innocent victims! What a twisted reality some have allowed the Twentieth Century Church to become! But that's no wonder, throughout Biblical history, whenever men working for God have walked around wanting to be reverenced; God's truth has always suffered. And God also always knocked them down to size. Perhaps these "Reverends" feel that they have a better way than God does. Oh The arrogance of man to assume that they know better than Almighty God. Or maybe it's just their ignorance to the scriptures; in which case they could benefit from deeper Bible Study. Be careful whom you entrust your very soul to, for not everyone standing at the Pulpit is working for God! But now back to the next verse where God tells us not to pity the execution of a murderer. Makes you kind of wonder who the "candle vigil against capitol punishment Ministers" are working for, it sure isn't for God. For if they worked for God they would teach His word, not theirs!Deut 19:13 13 Thine eye shall not pity him, but thou shalt put away the guilt of innocent blood from Israel, that it may go well with thee. (KJV) Now lets go to the book of Numbers, 35th chapter below. This gives us a clear distinction between killing someone at unawares and murdering them (criminal homicide). In verse 11, it speaks of the cities of refuge, that we learned about in the book of Deuteronomy. And through verse 15, it tells of the involuntary manslayer, and that he is not to be put to death but must move away to a city of refuge. In verse 16, it speaks of the murderer and that the murderer is to be put to death - executed:Num 35:11-16 11 Then ye shall appoint you cities to be cities of refuge for you; that the slayer may flee thither, which killeth any person at unawares. 12 And they shall be unto you cities for refuge from the avenger; that the manslayer die not, until he stand before the congregation in judgment. 13 And of these cities which ye shall give six cities shall ye have for refuge.14 Ye shall give three cities on this side Jordan, and three cities shall ye give in the land of Canaan, which shall be cities of refuge. 15 These six cities shall be a refuge, both for the children of Israel, and for the stranger, and for the sojourner among them: that every one that killeth any person unawares may flee thither. 16 And if he smite him with an instrument of iron, so that he die, he is a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death. Now in verse 19 of this 35th Chapter of Numbers, we see two of our words. It is very clearly stated that the avenger of the blood shall SLAY (Hebrew word #4191) the MURDERER (Hebrew word #7523). Therefore, verse 19 shows with great clarity, that there is a big difference between SLAY and MURDERER. It is also quite apparent that God is an advocate for capitol punishment:Num 35:17-1917 And if he smite him with throwing a stone, wherewith he may die, and he die, he is a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death. 18 Or if he smite him with an hand weapon of wood, wherewith he may die, and he die, he is a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death. 19 The revenger of blood himself shall slay the murderer: when he meeteth him, he shall slay him. (KJV) Now I know that right about now there will be some from the watered down Churches of today that will tell you that this is "Old Testament law and that it doesn't apply today." Oh ?!? Really ?!? Lets see what Jesus Christ said about this. I mean, I follow Christ's instructions, not the false teachers/preachers, how about you, whom will you receive your instruction from? In the New Testament book of Matthew [Mt 5:17+18]:Matt 5:17-18 (Jesus speaking) 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (KJV) Jesus seems pretty emphatic to me! By the way, regarding the above word "JOT"; In the ancient Hebrew language, there are no vowels. To put it in simple terms, to get the vowel sound of the letter, they put a tiny mark by the letter. For the sake of an example (characters not accurate): [.] is an A sound, [..] is an E sound, and so forth. So what Jesus is saying in this is that he changes not even the sound of one letter of one sentence of the law. (some say that it is a 'Yod' which is the smallest Hebrew letter. But you get the point). How about a second witness from Jesus, and you always want at least two witnesses to any scripture to be sure you are getting the true meanings of the scripture. Still in the New Testament, let's go to the book of Luke, [Lk 16:17]:Luke 16:17 (Jesus speaking) 17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail. (KJV) And I would have to say that Jesus was also very clear here that Gods law stands until the end of the Heaven and the earth. The "TITTLE" spoken of, to put it in very simple terms, is a small ornament or mark drawn above a letter in the manuscripts. These "Tittles" were placed amongst the Hebrew Old Testament manuscripts in a very few but specific places. See The Companion Bible appendix #93. Figuratively, it means not to change one particle of the law. Now that the Bible has bore witness to God's distinction between killing a man and murdering a man, lets go back into God's Word for one example of a good man killing a evil man to save an innocent man from being murdered. There are probably not more men loved by God than Moses. Moses was given The Ten Commandments by God, God spoke to Moses from the burning bush, God chose Moses to lead his people out of the bondage of the Egyptians, Moses also authored the first five books of the Bible. Lets go to the book of Exodus, [Ex 2:11+12]. We know from the preceding verses 1 through 10, that Moses was born a Hebrew into the tribe of Levi, and of his being adopted by an Egyptian, into the very family of Pharaoh no less! In the book of Exodus, [Ex 2:11-15], we will see of the beginnings of Moses. Below in verses 11 & 12 we will see Moses calling the Hebrew his brethren (which means of like ancestry). We see an Egyptian SMITING (Hebrew word # 5221) a Hebrew. Moses then SLEW the Egyptian. The Hebrew word SLEW #5221 is the very same word in the Hebrew language as the word SMITING: #5221,). Then we see Moses bury the body in the sand.Exod 2:11-15 11 And it came to pass in those days, when Moses was grown, that he went out unto his brethren, and looked on their burdens: and he spied an Egyptian smiting an Hebrew, one of his brethren. 12 And he looked this way and that way, and when he saw that there was no man, he slew the Egyptian, and hid him in the sand. (KJV) This is an excellent example of the effects of translation on the true meaning of a verse. In explanation: Moses killed the Egyptian to save the Hebrew, because the Egyptian was beating the Hebrew to the point of death. The word SMITING (Hebrew word # 5221) is far more severe than a beating. The Hebrew was being beaten to death. Had not Moses interceded, the Hebrew would have been murdered. Moses intercedes and stops the attack of the Egyptian by beating the Egyptian in the same manner that he was beating the Hebrew. The only differences being that Moses accomplished SMITING the Egyptian to death. Thus, he SLEW him (Hebrew word # 5221 the word being used) which is a smiting taken to its ultimate completion. * NOTE: Allow me a short digression here, an interesting point in the usage of one English word for many Hebrew and Greek words in the Bible would be in the book of Matthew [MT 5:39]. This is a scripture that the weak hearted among God's Children like to twist to fit their own Doctrines and beliefs of allowing themselves to be abused and to yielding to the powers of evil, all in the name of "Christian love". The word SMITE is used here, but it is a different word in the Greek language than the word SMITE in the Hebrew language, as it appears in the above verses. The word SMITE in [Mt 5:39] below, is Greek word #4474, and it's definition is supplied below: Matt 5:39 (Jesus speaking) 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. (KJV) *From the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance and the Thayer's Greek Lexicon of the Bible: SMITE: Greek word #4474 rhapizo (hrap-id'-zo); from a derivative of a primary rhepo (to let fall, "rap"); to slap: KJV-- smite (with the palm of the hand). Compare 5180. to strike in the face with the palm of the hand, to box the ear Also, understand that Jesus was speaking to His disciples at this time, and He wasn't talking about the town bully either. What this means is that if the disciples offend someone with their teaching of the Word, and that person reaches out and strikes them because they are offended by the truth, then the Disciples should take it all in stride and not retaliate. Even today many so-called Christians become offended when you try to teach them the true Word of God out of the Bible and consequently take away their false doctrines in the process. ie: Rapture theories, Mariolatry, Saint worship, heathen Easter practices on the Holiest day of the year, which is the Passover, . . . Enough about that for this study. Getting back to our current study topic, we could take this example of Moses and apply it to the lives and actions of a; police officer, a soldier, a good Samaritan, as well as any citizen acting in self defense or in intervention for another, when they may have to make swift and sure intercession and action for the citizens that they are charged to protect, a country they are ordered to defend, and as a citizen coming to the aid of a victim, or for the preservation of their own lives. Sometimes a person must take a life. We are to take no pleasure in it, but God understands, and is all wise and knowing. He knows what is in your heart and he can even read your mind. God created all things and peoples, and he knows the nature of them. In verses 13 through 15 of this 2nd chapter of the book of Exodus, we see Moses flee Egypt for his life, not because he had sinned against God, but because at that time, Egyptian law meant execution for anyone killing an Egyptian. Especially if it was done for the sake of a Hebrew slave, who the Egyptians looked upon as property and not people, thus they treated them as less than equals.Exodus 2: 13-15 13 And when he went out the second day, behold, two men of the Hebrews strove together: and he said to him that did the wrong, Wherefore smitest thou thy fellow? 14 And he said, Who made thee a prince and a judge over us? intendest thou to kill me, as thou killedst the Egyptian? And Moses feared, and said, Surely this thing is known. 15 Now when Pharaoh heard this thing, he sought to slay Moses. But Moses fled from the face of Pharaoh, and dwelt in the land of Midian: and he sat down by a well. (KJV) If you look at this in a deeper sense, you see that what Moses did unknowingly, and with the unknown (to him) guidance of God with regards to fleeing Egypt and going to the land of Midian; was an example of fleeing to a "city of refuge", even though this was not yet commanded by God to be done at this particular time; For surely in God's eyes Moses act was not worthy of death. In closing, we as God fearing (Which should have been translated to: "God revering" throughout the entire Bible, and should be read as such) Christians should always look to the Lord for wisdom and guidance. For as Jesus said: "Behold, I have foretold you all things" [Mark 13:23]. God forbid, if we are ever put into the position of having to take a life in the course of self defense, going to war, defending another, using deadly force as a police officer or good Samaritan, or being chosen to sit on a jury and having to "vote" in a death penalty case; It would be an easy way out for a weak Christian, to shirk his duties in life and leave it up to somebody else. But if everyone refused to make a moral stand and do what is necessary and right for the good of all, this world would be without discipline and order, and the evildoers would run amuck, take control, and cause much suffering for the good people who must live amidst them. We can see from multiple stories throughout the Bible, that God has had to cause and allow the destruction of some. Surly you've heard of the story of David and Goliath? When David slew the Philistine (Goliath) and cut off his head, was that David committing a murder? Of course not, it was necessary and David acted. For in killing that one, David averted an invasion and battle wherein may would have died. In fact, David succeeded in killing Goliath only with Gods blessings and help [1st Samuel 17: 1-51]. And even later on in David's life when David did plan and enable the death of Uriah the Hittite [2nd Sam 11:15], so that he (David) could have Uriah's wife; God was angry because David had sinned, but while God did punish David, He also forgave him [2nd Sam 11:2-12:13]. My point being: God takes everything into consideration! Likewise today in our lives, some people are chosen by God and allowed to bear an awesome responsibility or set of circumstances, and only by God's Grace and our knowledge of His Word, The Bible, can we make the right decisions and live with them in everlasting life. God knows your mind and heart, and he counts your good intentions as deeds done; even if you fall short. And likewise, sometimes accidents happen that cause the death of another Human Being. God knows your Heart and your intentions, and He will not punish a soul for murder if the death was the cause of an accident, an unintentional manslaughter. And no, you cannot con God, do not even try! This Bible study would be remiss, if we did not cover an area that has caused many women distress. Many women in this generation, when they were younger perhaps, were put into a devastating position. They became pregnant and found themselves very much alone. They were afraid, they felt as though they had nowhere to turn, so they chose a option that made the problem go away. They chose to have an abortion. And it is a shame that they were made to feel as though they were alone in trouble, that they alone bore responsibility for this awesome situation/decision. It takes two to make a child and believe me; two will answer for the outcome. Many men feel that they are not responsible because it was "not their body," they think that they waltz away "footloose and fancy free", this however is not the case. But God is a loving God, an understanding God. He is what is known as a "Heart Knower". That means that He can see into the depths of your soul, He knows your innermost thoughts, your intentions, and the level of your knowledge and understanding at the time that you committed a certain sin. In other words, He acknowledges that some sins were done in a certain degree of ignorance. Many, through ignorance of God's Word, do things that they don't fully understand the awesome significance of. While common sense tells them that what they are doing is unnatural, they do not realize that it is of the magnitude that it truly is. Has a women who has had an abortion, murdered, or has she killed in ignorance? Has a man who causes an accident that takes a life, murdered, or has he killed involuntarily? What if he was intoxicated at the time of that accident, then is he a murderer, or did he kill because he irresponsibly put himself into the position of not being able to react quickly enough or fall asleep at the wheel? Am I saying that abortion and vehicular manslaughter are OK? God forbid, of course not. But God does looks at intent, will God judge a frightened woman or an irresponsible man the same way that a murder for hire "hit-man" will be judged? Beloved, man can not pass judgment, man is not to try to do God's judging for Him. So as we always should do, lets go to God's Word for our answers. Everything in the Bible happened for a reason, so that we could have wisdom and instruction to draw from in our own lives today. The answer to the problems that cause people so very much distress, have been sitting on their shelves in their Bibles all along! I wonder how many people are found laying dead on the floor with a self inflicted gunshot wound, laying in the shadow of the source of the true relief that they really sought after, as it remains closed and unread on their bookshelf, that relief and comfort being the Bible. Apostle Paul was right up there at the top of the list when it came to servants whom pleased God. Apostle Paul wrote most of the New Testament for God, through God's Divine inspiration. God chose Paul out of all the souls in the world. But Paul was by no means a perfect man, as none of us ever could be perfect in the flesh. Do you remember Paul's beginnings, when he was still named Saul? When he persecuted Christians, seizing entire families from their homes and arresting them for simply believing that Jesus Christ was the Only Begotten Son of Almighty God, The Anointed One, The Savior? Well this same Paul, then named Saul, did this horrific thing, and you can read of it in [Acts 9:1-20]. Many of these Christians were murdered, fed to the Lions to the amusement of the Rulers and the people, and with the approval of the wicked ones who had crept into power in the Synagogues. While Paul always regretted that part of his life, he did in fact know that he had been forgiven, and he spent the rest of his life being the best servant he could possibly be to our Lord. Perhaps that is an example to someone who feels they are too far gone. Paul would go on to write of himself and those terrible things that he had done:1 Tim 1:12-16 (Apostle Paul speaking of himself) 12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; 13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. 14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. (KJV) God chose Paul, God chooses whom He will. God did not have to pick a man who had done the terrible things that Paul had done. But God did pick him, and God made sure that we would know of Paul's sins today, through our Bibles. Why was this done? Why did God insist that every generation that followed would know of the one-time inhumanity and fallibility of one of His very best servants? Why would God allow Paul's reputation to take such a hit? God did not have to let it be written, God did not have to insist that it be written, God did not have to allow it to even happen! As I have stated before: There is a reason for everything in our Bible, there is no wasted action with God, no wasted words or deeds. These things were done for you, they were done and recorded in the Holy Scriptures for you, so that you could know of a surety; that through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ that day, on that Cross at Golgotha (Calvary), there is salvation for all that believe upon His Most Sacred Name. This was done so that you could believe and be sure in your heart, that through the Blood of Jesus Christ, God is able and willing to forgive you of all your sin. No man can take that away from you or make it of none effect, it is a promise directly from Almighty God to you! So please, if you have taken a life with good intentions and a pureness of heart, have no guilt trips, because the Bible is God's Word and his Truth, and Jesus is the Living Word and He is the Truth. And Jesus tells you: "The truth shall make you free" [John 8:32]. And don't you let any misinformed, satan aiding pacifist, bind you with guilt. Whether they are "reverends" or not. If they aren't Christian enough to stand up and fight for God and the forces of good, or to do what God tells us must be done. Then they are of no use to God once the going gets tough in this latter day generation, they are just playing Church! So you study God's Word and be set free from the bondage of the undeserved guilt that drives good men and women away from the Lord, and that same guilt that satan so likes to place in the heart of Gods children, of whom you are one. And if you are someone who God has put into the position of "standing in the gap" for a victim in this world, then I thank you here for all of us! And if you are one of those "wimp Christians" who allow satan to run all over you, then to you I say: Stand up like a man or women of God, and quit aiding and abetting satan. There are many ways to stand up, you don't always have to use physical action. And by all means, support and help those who do resist and combat evil in whatever form it takes. There is not one person, male or female, adult or child, who did well by God in the Bible by being a coward. God does not consider Christians to be second class citizens, and He doesn't expect you to either! And He most certainly doesn't like it when satan and his lot, mess with God's beloved children!!! God does indeed send deliverance in the form of fellow man. And I am not saying that you have to be some "muscle man," most of the battles between God's children and the children of the devil are spiritual. God chooses and uses whom He will, just look at all the female Heros in the Bible; read of Deborah some time! [Judges 4:1 - 5:15], and He utilizes children as Hero's also; read of David and Goliath [1st Samuel 17: 1-51]. David was just a lad at that time! Yes, there is a time for great kindness and tender mercies with the Lord; but at the same time There is a time for definite action. It seems that in Christianity we have lost that concept somewhere along the way. God likes good, stand-up, take charge, reliable, "can-do" type Christians. And He likes them just a little bit salty. He likes them to leave a little wake behind them. If you make a just stand, God will be with you, He will strengthen you and be proud of you! This is not to say that we are to go so far as to be abusive or do anything illegal God forbid! A word to the wise is sufficient, always use good judgment:Luke 14:34-35 (Christ speaking) 34 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned? 35 It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. (KJV) But some may ask: "What if I really have committed a murder, a criminal homicide, is there no hope for me?" Well first of all this is very bad, but then if your reading this Bible study then you obviously realize this and seek to know if there is hope for you. Once again I must state that no man can do God's judging for Him, and this author would never attempt to place himself in the judgment seat. So where then is the answer? You know where the answer is, it's in your Bible, for God told us all things. Let me assist you in your searching by leading you to several scriptures that hold your answer. First of all there is only one unforgivable sin, and it is not Murder. (To learn of the only The Unforgivable Sin, as well as God's Word on forgiveness, see the: Forgiveness In-depth Bible Study). So if murder is not the only one unforgivable sin, then it has the capability of being forgiven. However, murder is the highest mortal sin one could commit other than the unforgivable sin of course. We as Christians know that Christ's blood covers all the repented sins of a true believer, but the Bible does single out one particular sin in the book of [1st Epistle of John 3:15] and that is murder:I Jn 3:15 15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. (KJV) That doesn't say that: "no murderer can ever have eternal life." What it states is that: "no murderer can expect that eternal life." It is not guaranteed to him as it is to other types of repentant sinners. In verse 15 above, the word used is "abiding" in him. That word "abiding" is Greek word #3306, and below is it's definition: Abiding: Greek word #3306; meno (men'-o); a primary verb; to stay (in a given place, state, relation or expectancy) If a murderer cannot gain eternal life for sure here on earth, then where can he gain it? In Heaven of course, on judgment day with God, when Almighty God Himself opens the books. It is then that God will make the final decision. In other words, a murderer must wait till he dies and appears before God to be forgiven of that particular sin. God may or may not forgive him, that is God's business. But we see in the verses below that God does take into account your good works on this earth.James 5:17-20 17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months. 18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit. 19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. (KJV) _________________1 Pet 4:1-8 1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; 2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God. 3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries: 4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you: 5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. 6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. 7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer. 8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins. (KJV) Am I saying that you can go around murdering people and get away with it? God forbid. For that would mean that you premeditated twisting God's Word. God is not one to be fooled. But God does search the heart and He alone knows the circumstances involved. And yes Christ's blood covers all sin if the repentance is deemed worthy and sincere by God. Beloved, God is the final judge, and if I were one who had committed a murder, then I would become the best Christian that God ever saw, and I would pray that He pardon me on that day. And I would most certainly bring tons of good works to the Great White Throne Judgment day!!! For it is only then that we know for sure what becomes of our soul. Let's close this study with a look into the future. St. John is taken to the future by the Angel of God and he is shown things that he was to come back to show to through writing them in the book called Revelation. This scripture is the account of the Great White Throne Judgment. And we all stand before God on that day; both believers and unbelievers and both good and evil will have that one-on-one moment with Almighty God. I am unconcerned with the self-righteous, hypocritical, "holier than thou" types that may have told you that the soul of a murderer is automatically condemned to eternal death. Nor should you listen to them. God judges everything on a case by case basis, and He alone knows all the circumstances involved. Those that turn a murderer (or any sinner for that matter) away from repentance and the hope of the salvation that it brings; may themselves be spiritually deader than the murderer, for the murderer steals a life but they steal a soul. Which is the greater sin? God knows. God is the Judge, and our works do matter to Him. Read this scripture slowly and absorb the depth of the words, for they are the Word of God your Heavenly Father whom created you:Rev 20:11-15 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (KJV) Now not to talk down to anybody, but it does not say in verse15 above: "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life or anyone who has committed a past murder was cast into the lake of fire." So there is hope then, that's all this author can tell you. Am I coddling criminals? No way, I'm just teaching God's Word as it is written. And if God's Word offends anyone, then let them take it up with God. To those who have sinned, feel remorse, and fear that there is no hope for them; then you must know that there is someone who can help you, His name is Jesus Christ. And you must know someone who can forgive you, His name is Almighty God. And you must know where you can find your answers, it's called the Bible. Why don't you talk to your Heavenly Father in prayer, and read the letter that He ensured that you would have. That letter is from Him and written to and for you, that letter is the Bible. And finally, if any of this study seems to be conflicting with other parts of the study, then you probably are not taking into account that there is a flesh body and there is a spiritual body, a natural man and a spiritual man living in all of us. To better understand this, read on your own: 1st Corinthians chapter 15, and, 2nd Corinthians chapter 5. In the Eternal name of our Savior Jesus Christ, God bless you always!
     
  18. Joyful

    Joyful New Member

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    Thanks for your long post, but no thanks. I will not go backward as to support the military. I stand firm in my position.Good day
     
  19. n2thelight

    n2thelight Well-Known Member

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    FaithfulWe all have choices,and while I don't agree,I respect yours.
     
  20. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    I never said you just stand there and watch. I believe God will give us wisdom and discernment how we handle the situation. That's why we are reading the Bible and praying every day.
    What's to "discern" when someone you love is being attacked? Give me a passage where Jesus said do nothing when a loved one is being hurt.
    Soldiers are not sacrificing themself completely unselfishly. They are also killing their enemy in exchange. It is not self-sacrificial at all. It is completely different, my dear, not to mention they are getting compensation grately. I know this because my husband is retired military.
    I just about blew my cool when I read this, this is a slap in the face for those that I know and love. That's going way overboard and being very judgmental about why people do something; something you frankly have absolutely no business making. I respect that your husband was in the military and I thank him for his service. However, you're not the only one here with friends/family that served or are serving. I know at least one other very active member here has a son overseas as we speak. I have had and do have friends and family in the military stretching several generations. My grandfather went ashore with the Marines in Okinawa, I had a couple uncles fight in Vietnam, I have a cousin in the air force that's been to Pakistan during the quakes/tsunamis helping the victims there and then to Iraq, I have several friends and a family member in the marines some of which are on the front line. I know for a fact none of these signed up to further themselves. I will leave this part of the topic now before I say something I might later regret.
    I repeat the same, God wants us to deal with what we've got right now. I believe a lot of Christians followed Hitler's command too, and killed brothers and sisters in Christ at the same time..
    What does this have to do at all with joining the American military?? There would be no right now if it weren't for the millions who sacrificed their lives so that there could be a right now. God's hand was in all of this! Hitler can claim to be Christian and can brainwash those who listen but do you think those that blindly followed Hitler are any worse off than those who teach false doctrines on the Lord's Day?
    What I am doing? I am spreading Jesus as much as I can. I even have volunteer oversea mission for the Lord.
    Read the question in context please...it was not directed at you. When one sacrifices their life so that others can get to know, love, and worship Christ then there is no greater sacrifice at all. You can log all the mission hours (and the mission is a good thing) you want but it will never be greater.
     
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