Millennialism proven by that man of sin

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WPM

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That’s not the same as being chained for 1,000 years

In your opinion. This is called apocalyptic symbolism. It is actually a dragon that is chained in a prison. The dragon symbolically represents Satan. The chain and prison represent spiritual restraint. Restraint from what? Deceiving the Gentiles as a whole any more. Before the first resurrection they were in ignorance. After that, they were enlightened.
 

ewq1938

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That’s not the same as being chained for 1,000 years


And it wouldn't be how the strongman was bound either. The strongman was not tied like a dog where there is limited but still the ability to roam around. The binding is to disable movement...sometimes called being "hogtied". Similar concept to a straightjacket. The chain or rope is wrapped around the person to fully disable them.That is the type of binding satan endures in Rev 20, and then he is cast into a prison that is locked and sealed further restraining him from affecting anything or anyone in the world. Amill's "binding" is not biblical and not effective and cannot and would not stop satan from deceiving the nations.


Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
 
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RLT63

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And it wouldn't be how the strongman was bound either. The strongman was not tied like a dog is where there is limited but still the ability to roam around. The binding is to disable movement...sometimes called being "hogtied". Similar concept to a straightjacket. The chain or rope is wrapped around the person to fully disable them.That is the type of binding satan endures in Rev 20, and then he is cast into a prison that is locked and sealed further restraining him from affecting anything or anyone in the world. Amill's "binding" is not biblical and not effective and cannot and would not stop satan from deceiving the nations.


Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Amen
 
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Timtofly

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In your opinion. This is called apocalyptic symbolism. It is actually a dragon that is chained in a prison. The dragon symbolically represents Satan. The chain and prison represent spiritual restraint. Restraint from what? Deceiving the Gentiles as a whole any more. Before the first resurrection they were in ignorance. After that, they were enlightened.
In Revelation 9:1-5 , the 5th Trumpet, is that a literal pit or just symbolic? Because the pit is opened at the 5th Trumpet and Sealed after Armageddon, when Satan is bound. You don't use the word dragon when you claim Satan was bound, so obviously you literally mean Satan was bound. You still have the wrong timing. You claim the pit was sealed in the first century after being opened at the Second Coming that has not even happened yet.

Revelation 20 does not time travel back to the first century. The pit is closed back up after being opened a few years earlier. You hide behind total annihilation, and miss all the details that obviously cannot happen, but do happen, after your falsely alleged total annihilation event. The 6th Seal is 2 Peter 3, not Revelation 19 or Revelation 20 in some obscure recap scenario.
 

robert derrick

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I wasn't saying it will affect us all. I'm saying that it always has the potential to affect any of Peter and Paul's readers if it happens in their lifetimes. But, if the destruction they describe as coming like a thief in the night won't even come until 1,000+ years after Christ returns, then it wouldn't be true that it can potentially affect their readers because they were warning their readers about being spiritually alert before He returns.
You mean the readers during His millennial reign, when they flow up to Jerusalem to hear His law, so they can walk in His paths?

Those readers of Scripture, that will still be the most popular Book on earth?

Oh yes they will. Just like today.

They just won't have Satan around to tempt and accuse anymore, and the Lord Himself with resurrected saints will be ministering the gospel on earth.

People ask 'why' such a reign on earth: It will be the greatest harvesting of souls to the Lord over a thousand years, that will make the previous thousands of years a warm up.

Because you refuse to believe all the scriptures when plainly written, and prefer to symbolize what you don't like, then the spirit of truth cannot guide you into all truth, including the vain question of 'why' would the Lord reign on earth.

I believe there is some JW style natural theology involved in it. They certainly teach the same thing, of no earthly reign of Jesus Christ and His resurrected saints. They mock it too.

Why not? I certainly have no personal problem with that. And I am seeing several things come out with them, that do have a personal problem with that, and it certainly isn't just because of some 'academic integrity' of the Book.
 
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robert derrick

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It was a sincere question. I honestly don't know if you believe that the sword coming out of Jesus's mouth is literal or not. If you take the birds eating people's flesh literally,
If you've never seen birds eat flesh, then you're too citified. And if you've never seen birds eat the flesh of men, then you've lived a charmed life. So far.


is that it's talking about a real event (Christ's second coming) that will bring about real destruction, but that destruction is described symbolically there. Whereas in a passage like 2 Peter 3:10-12 that refers to the same event (His second coming), it is described literally.

That's sophistic double speak. You agree with the literal title of the event, and symbolize away the event itself into something else.


That isn't what I'm doing. I think you are kind of paranoid about that. You seem to think that if anyone symbolizes things more than you do, then they are just symbolizing everything away. But, that is not what I'm doing.
Just those who do away with Christ's personal thousand year reign on earth, by symbolizing it into something else.

I also reject them that symbolize away the dividing of the Red Sea.

You think I don't know that? What does that have to do with me, though? Nothing.

Peter said he has made known to us the power and coming our the Lord by eyewitness, not as fables. John was made eyewitness to His coming again, and wrote it down in plain words.

You honor the title with your lips, while dishonoring the manner of it recorded, as symbolic fable only.

Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.

Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?

is eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.


The slaughter of the armies around Armageddon, will be a bloody mess as well as melting of eyes. And all fowls of the earth will be gathered by God to come and feast on the remains.

It is not Gog and Magog devoured by fire.

What do you think is the correct interpretation then? That it's a literal sword?

It's not fire, as you try to make it. That's like trying to ram a square peg into a round hole, or mangle a piece of puzzle into a place it doesn't anywhere belong.

Since His name is called the Word of God in context, and Scripture says the word of God is a sharp and quick double edged sword, then we can prove by Scripture, that sword proceeding from His mouth has to do with the word of God.

This is what I mean by reading Scripture in plain words,and so easily Interpreting Scripture by Scripture. It's not rocket science, until people want Scripture to say something else, and then they get to write whole paragraphs about how it's something different, than what it plainly says. And if they get to show some good ol' Greek or Hebrew scholarship, then all the better.


Why you can discern that, but still insist on Him having a future reign on earth is beyond me.
Because I go by what Scripture plainly says. There are those accepting the truth of His personal earthly reign for a thousand years, and do not understand His current spiritual reign on earth now.

I have learned the JWs reject His personal reign on earth in His immortal body, because it contradicts their core heresy of heaven or oblivion theology.

And so, I wonder what your agenda is. Are you JW? Do you believe the soul of man is his mortal flesh and blood? Do you believe the soul separates from the dead body, to go to torment of hell, or present joy with the Lord in heaven?
 

Spiritual Israelite

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If you've never seen birds eat flesh, then you're too citified. And if you've never seen birds eat the flesh of men, then you've lived a charmed life. So far.
Nice job of completely missing the point. Can a symbolic sword literally kill people, resulting in birds eating their flesh? Explain how that works.

That's sophistic double speak. You agree with the literal title of the event, and symbolize away the event itself into something else.
Nonsense. I don't symbolize away anything. I believe Jesus will kill all of His enemies when He returns, but just not with a sword coming out of His mouth. This shouldn't be so hard to understand. Your false accusations do nothing but make you look bad.

Just those who do away with Christ's personal thousand year reign on earth, by symbolizing it into something else.

I also reject them that symbolize away the dividing of the Red Sea.
He reigns now, so there's no symbolizing anything away. You are not recognizing the nature of His reign because you have no knowledge of scripture.

It's not fire, as you try to make it. That's like trying to ram a square peg into a round hole, or mangle a piece of puzzle into a place it doesn't anywhere belong.
You constantly avoid answering questions. If it's not fire, then by what method will Christ destroy His enemies? I asked you if you think He will destroy them with a literal sword coming out of His mouth. Yes or no? If not, then how do you think He will accomplish it?

Since His name is called the Word of God in context, and Scripture says the word of God is a sharp and quick double edged sword, then we can prove by Scripture, that sword proceeding from His mouth has to do with the word of God.
Yes, I agree. So, this means the method in which He will destroy His enemies is not by way of a literal sword. So, how will He do it? Other scripture like 2 Peter 3:10-12 tells us that He will do it with fire.

This is what I mean by reading Scripture in plain words,and so easily Interpreting Scripture by Scripture. It's not rocket science, until people want Scripture to say something else, and then they get to write whole paragraphs about how it's something different, than what it plainly says. And if they get to show some good ol' Greek or Hebrew scholarship, then all the better.
I can't take you seriously when you say things like this because you ignore what plain, straightforward passages like 2 Peter 3:10-12 and John 5:28-29 teach. And you ignore passages like Matthew 25:31-46 which make it clear that all people will appear before Christ's throne and be judged at the same time.

Because I go by what Scripture plainly says.
No, you do not. Scripture plainly says all of the dead will be raised at generally the same time (John 5:28-29) and that all people will be judged at the same time (Matt 13:40-43, Matt 13:47-50, Matt 25:31-46), but you don't go by those scriptures at all. You either twist them or ignore them.
 

robert derrick

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Nice job of completely missing the point. Can a symbolic sword literally kill people, resulting in birds eating their flesh? Explain how that works.
Since symbolic swords killing people, is your opinion, then you explain it.

Birds eating flesh needs no explanation. If you want to see it, go look somewhere.

Nonsense. I don't symbolize away anything.
Birds eating flesh of dead men around the field of Armageddon.

As well as Christ ruling them on earth, after them of the nations gathered to make war with Him from the earth.


I believe Jesus will kill all of His enemies when He returns, but just not with a sword coming out of His mouth.
Then why do you talk about a symbolic sword doing so?

He reigns now, so there's no symbolizing anything away.
True, He spiritually and literally reigns with His sanctified saints on earth today, wheresoever they are at the time.

He and His saints will reign over all nations on earth, after His coming again and their first resurrection

You are not recognizing the nature of His reign because you have no knowledge of scripture.
If you want to correct my above teaching of His spiritual reign on earth today, go ahead.

You're not the only brighty on the Christian block, that understands spiritual things of Christ and His people.

You just think it's somehow necessary to do away with His Millennium on earth, to do so.

You need to think laterally as well as vertically, so that you're not so heavenly minded, you become no earthly good.

I wouldn't be surprised if you are an OSAS believing, who thinks you remain spiritually pure and uncondemned, while doing sinful works of the flesh with the world.

You constantly avoid answering questions. If it's not fire, then by what method will Christ destroy His enemies?
By His brightness as lightning flash, as well as trampling them remaining alive on the field of battle, when He touches ground:

I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.


The Symbol Man's Bible rejects this as happening, as with many other prophecies of Scripture.
I asked you if you think He will destroy them with a literal sword coming out of His mouth. Yes or no? If not, then how do you think He will accomplish it?
See above.

Yes, I agree. So, this means the method in which He will destroy His enemies is not by way of a literal sword. So, how will He do it?
See above again.

Also, like Samson rending the lion with bare hands, I suppose they could do the same with immortal hands.




Other scripture like 2 Peter 3:10-12 tells us that He will do it with fire.

Tells you in the symbol Man's Bible.

Not me in the Bible of Scripture.
I can't take you seriously when you say things like this because you ignore what plain, straightforward passages like 2 Peter 3:10-12 and John 5:28-29 teach.

I ignore what you teach from them, because I've already proven them false to my own satisfaction, and all you do is ask silly questions and then repeat yourself. You never address the actual points made from the Scripture, nor show how those points are not sensibly made from the Scriptures.
And you ignore passages like Matthew 25:31-46 which make it clear that all people will appear before Christ's throne and be judged at the same time.
Yes, all people remaining alive on earth, will be judged as sheep to enter into His Millennium reign, or as goats to be cast out from His reign.

The natural sheep will be them on earth, that he and His saints will rule with rods of iron, whether as shepherds or taskmasters, depending upon the hearts of them being ruled.

No, you do not. Scripture plainly says all of the dead will be raised at generally the same time (John 5:28-29) and that all people will be judged at the same time (Matt 13:40-43, Matt 13:47-50, Matt 25:31-46), but you don't go by those scriptures at all. You either twist them or ignore them.

I don't ignore the Scripture, but only your teaching of them.

Especially since you ignore my own teaching of them.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Since symbolic swords killing people, is your opinion, then you explain it.

Birds eating flesh needs no explanation. If you want to see it, go look somewhere.
You continue to avoid addressing the issue. Why is that? Are you afraid to do so? You acknowledged that the sword is symbolic. So, why do you act as if it's talking about a literal sword killing people, resulting in birds eating their flesh? If the sword is symbolic then the whole description of Him slaying people with His sword is symbolic, including the descriptions of birds eating people's flesh. You can't see this because you are blinded by your false doctrine and your inability to differentiate between symbolic and literal text.

Birds eating flesh of dead men around the field of Armageddon.

As well as Christ ruling them on earth, after them of the nations gathered to make war with Him from the earth.
Hahaha. He's going to rule over people He has just killed? If only you understood just how nonsensical your beliefs are.

Then why do you talk about a symbolic sword doing so?
I don't! You do! I have said repeatedly that He will destroy His enemies with fire. How do you think He will do it exactly?

True, He spiritually and literally reigns with His sanctified saints on earth today, wheresoever they are at the time.

He and His saints will reign over all nations on earth, after His coming again and their first resurrection
That isn't taught anywhere in scripture.

If you want to correct my above teaching of His spiritual reign on earth today, go ahead.

You're not the only brighty on the Christian block, that understands spiritual things of Christ and His people.
You clearly don't based on your comments.

You just think it's somehow necessary to do away with His Millennium on earth, to do so.
I don't need to do away with something that won't ever happen.

You need to think laterally as well as vertically, so that you're not so heavenly minded, you become no earthly good.
That's complete gibberish. Where do you come up with this nonsense?

I wouldn't be surprised if you are an OSAS believing, who thinks you remain spiritually pure and uncondemned, while doing sinful works of the flesh with the world.
You are wrong about that, just as you are about seemingly almost everything.

By His brightness as lightning flash, as well as trampling them remaining alive on the field of battle, when He touches ground:

I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.


The Symbol Man's Bible rejects this as happening, as with many other prophecies of Scripture.
What does that even mean? His brightness will kill people? Please explain how that will work. And what do you mean trampling them? How will He do that exactly?

Tells you in the symbol Man's Bible.

Not me in the Bible of Scripture.
LOL. You are hilarious. We all know that there is symbolism in the Bible. Why do you act as if there is none at all when I know that's not what you believe? We just disagree on how much symbolism there is. You come across as if symbolism is a bad thing, which is ridiculous.

I ignore what you teach from them, because I've already proven them false to my own satisfaction, and all you do is ask silly questions and then repeat yourself.
You call the questions silly only because you are unable to answer them.

You never address the actual points made from the Scripture, nor show how those points are not sensibly made from the Scriptures.
That is a flat out lie. I address them all the time as much as anyone on this forum.

Yes, all people remaining alive on earth, will be judged as sheep to enter into His Millennium reign, or as goats to be cast out from His reign.
Jesus indicated that the sheep will inherit the kingdom of God (Matthew 25:34). But, Paul taught that people with mortal flesh and blood will not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 15:50). So, your belief blatantly contradicts what Paul taught.

The natural sheep will be them on earth, that he and His saints will rule with rods of iron, whether as shepherds or taskmasters, depending upon the hearts of them being ruled.
You're making stuff up here that isn't taught anywhere in scripture.

I don't ignore the Scripture, but only your teaching of them.

Especially since you ignore my own teaching of them.
I don't ignore anything you say. Why do you keep lying? Just because I disagree with you on almost everything doesn't mean I'm ignoring what you're saying. I'm not doing that.
 

robert derrick

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You continue to avoid addressing the issue. Why is that? Are you afraid to do so? You acknowledged that the sword is symbolic. So, why do you act as if it's talking about a literal sword killing people, resulting in birds eating their flesh? If the sword is symbolic then the whole description of Him slaying people with His sword is symbolic,
In Scripture the sword symbolizes the word of God, and so He smites the nations with His word, even as He creates heaven and earth with His word.

He is the Word of God, and called such at the time of smiting the nations: He does so by His word proceeding from His mouth.


I don't! You do! I have said repeatedly that He will destroy His enemies with fire. How do you think He will do it exactly?
You're the only one talking about killing people with a symbolic sword.

I say it is by His word, that He smites the nations at Armageddon, which is symbolically called a sword in Scripture.

The brightness of His coming will be His word, with power to destroy the wicked.

It is not fire of God come down from heaven.

The only christ to come making fire come down from heaven, will be the last great antichrist doing so in sight of men, to destroy all his enemies.

I'm not looking for Jesus Christ appearing again on earth a second time, with fire coming down from heaven to destroy all flesh on earth.

You are.

You call the questions silly only because you are unable to answer them.
Silly questions have no answer. I only answer solid honest questions, which I do with you, when you have an honest question.

And at this time, I thank you for doing so sometimes, which requires an honest answer from me. And in this case, it is the sound conclusion that the Lord first smites the nations at Armageddon by trampling them with His immortal feet, and then with the brightness of His word, which is as a sword of His mouth, them still alive on the battlefield.

He first tramples until the blood rises up on the field, and then mops up with His word. Those still alive in that blood cannot escape. And then God calls the fowls of all the earth to come there and clean up.

And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

A very impressive battlefield merciless slaughter of the greatest of all warrior kings ever on earth.

including the descriptions of birds eating people's flesh.
This is how people extend symbolism to do away with real events of Scripture, and make them fable only.


Hahaha. He's going to rule over people He has just killed?
This is where you are either wilfully blind or just grammatically ignorant of plain words.
 

robert derrick

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What does that even mean? His brightness will kill people? Please explain how that will work.
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.

And so, you don't believe it, because you don't naturally understand it with a carnal mind.

You are not asking how with faith it will happen, but you are demanding to know how, since you don't believe it.

It's the difference between blinded Zacharias, and believing Mary.


And what do you mean trampling them? How will He do that exactly?
He will trample them with His immortal feet, of course.

Once again, an immortal body is not real to you, but only some symbolic fable.
 

robert derrick

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That is a flat out lie. I address them all the time as much as anyone on this forum.
Ok, we've been here before, but I will give you one last chance:

And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Who are the them, that He will rule after smiting the nations?
 

robert derrick

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Jesus indicated that the sheep will inherit the kingdom of God (Matthew 25:34). But, Paul taught that people with mortal flesh and blood will not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 15:50). So, your belief blatantly contradicts what Paul taught.
Your natural mindedness conflates the Millennium kingdom of Christ on earth, with His everlasting kingdom inherited only by born again sons of God.

The former kingdom is over natural people on earth, and the latter kingdom is within His people's' hearts and in heaven.

Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
 

robert derrick

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You're making stuff up here that isn't taught anywhere in scripture.
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory.

Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.


This is His glorious throne on earth, which is the throne of David, which is only earth, and is never the throne of God in heaven, nor the throne of God and the lamb on the new earth.

And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats.

These are them remaining of the smitten nations on earth, being judged before Him on the throne of David.

Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

To say these are the saints of God today, is to say they will be gathered and judged among the nations, and then chosen by works.

Saved saints of God know all that they do, and what they do unto the Lord. We do not care for our neighbors, nor visit the sick out of ignorance. And we know especially to do so for the household of faith:

As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.

These are natural sheep of the nations, that are naturally neighborly, and seek not to do evil to others, no matter what religion or philosophy they are of.

The saints of God are not judged with the nations, nor picked out from among them by works, but are chosen beforehand by faith. and we know it.

If you want to think, that you are going to be gathered among the nations on earth, and then judged among them, and picked out from them by works, you go right ahead.

That is the most natural minded teaching of God's gospel and judgment of His own people.
 

robert derrick

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You are wrong about that, just as you are about seemingly almost everything.
So, you don't believe OSAS? You believe Christians are just as condemned as unbelievers, when doing the same unrighteous sins as they? And so Christians need to confess and be forgiven, like any other person, that sins against God on earth?

Good for you. It's only prophecy of Scripture that is false, not your doctrine of salvation and justification by Christ.