More biblical proof that supports Amillennialism

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Timtofly

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You obviously think that you saying a thing makes it a fact. Well, no. Sorry to burst your bubble. The inspired text forbids your beliefs.
The kingdom is handed up at the second coming. You are 100 years too late. You are gerrymandering Scripture to support your non-corroborative error. Paul confirms the finality of the return of Jesus, in 1 Corinthians 15:22-24, stating, “as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming [Gr. parousia]. Then cometh the end [Gr. telos], when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.”

Please note the careful correlation between the parousia and the telos. This is a truth that is found throughout the NT. They are synonymous with each other. There is absolutely nothing that Premillennialists can do with such a clear and climactic passage apart from deny the obvious or add unto Scripture by inserting “a thousand years” in-between the coming (parousia) of Christ and the end (telos) where it does not belong. This is the dilemma for Premil throughout the Word. They are fighting the obvious.

The Greek simply reads:

Christos – Christ
en – at
autos – His
parousia – coming
eita – then
telos – the end

The coming of the Lord is shown to be the end of the world. There is no gap of time in-between the coming of Christ, the resurrection and the end. They all belong to the one final climactic overall event.

The phrase “he shall have delivered up” comes from the single Greek word paradidomi meaning surrender, yield up, intrust, or transmit. This is what happens to the kingdom when Christ comes. He surrenders it to His Father, He yields it up.

The converse phrase “he shall have put down” comes from the single Greek word katargeo meaning: bring to nought, none effect, or abolish. This is what happens to “all” existing “rule and all authority and power” when Jesus Comes. The rule of man comes to an end and now it becomes the rule of God.
And that is your private interpretation.
 

WPM

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And that is your private interpretation.
The kingdom is handed up at the second coming. Paul confirms the finality of the return of Jesus, in 1 Corinthians 15:22-24, stating, “as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming [Gr. parousia]. Then cometh the end [Gr. telos], when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.”

Please note the careful correlation between the parousia and the telos. This is a truth that is found throughout the NT. They are synonymous with each other. There is absolutely nothing that Premillennialists can do with such a clear and climactic passage apart from deny the obvious or add unto Scripture by inserting “a thousand years” in-between the coming (parousia) of Christ and the end (telos) where it does not belong. This is the dilemma for Premil throughout the Word. They are fighting the obvious.

The Greek simply reads:

Christos – Christ
en – at
autos – His
parousia – coming
eita – then
telos – the end

The coming of the Lord is shown to be the end of the world. There is no gap of time in-between the coming of Christ, the resurrection and the end. They all belong to the one final climactic overall event.

The phrase “he shall have delivered up” comes from the single Greek word paradidomi meaning surrender, yield up, intrust, or transmit. This is what happens to the kingdom when Christ comes. He surrenders it to His Father, He yields it up.

The converse phrase “he shall have put down” comes from the single Greek word katargeo meaning: bring to nought, none effect, or abolish. This is what happens to “all” existing “rule and all authority and power” when Jesus Comes. The rule of man comes to an end and now it becomes the rule of God.
 

WPM

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What debate? You don't even address the Scripture I have presented, all you give is your imagination and opinion.

LOL. That is all you have now: insults. You have moved from the Premil Phase 1: avoidance, to Phase 2: name calling and insults. All that is left now is Phase 3, run.
 
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Timtofly

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The kingdom is handed up at the second coming. Paul confirms the finality of the return of Jesus, in 1 Corinthians 15:22-24, stating, “as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming [Gr. parousia]. Then cometh the end [Gr. telos], when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.”

Please note the careful correlation between the parousia and the telos. This is a truth that is found throughout the NT. They are synonymous with each other. There is absolutely nothing that Premillennialists can do with such a clear and climactic passage apart from deny the obvious or add unto Scripture by inserting “a thousand years” in-between the coming (parousia) of Christ and the end (telos) where it does not belong. This is the dilemma for Premil throughout the Word. They are fighting the obvious.

The Greek simply reads:

Christos – Christ
en – at
autos – His
parousia – coming
eita – then
telos – the end

The coming of the Lord is shown to be the end of the world. There is no gap of time in-between the coming of Christ, the resurrection and the end. They all belong to the one final climactic overall event.

The phrase “he shall have delivered up” comes from the single Greek word paradidomi meaning surrender, yield up, intrust, or transmit. This is what happens to the kingdom when Christ comes. He surrenders it to His Father, He yields it up.

The converse phrase “he shall have put down” comes from the single Greek word katargeo meaning: bring to nought, none effect, or abolish. This is what happens to “all” existing “rule and all authority and power” when Jesus Comes. The rule of man comes to an end and now it becomes the rule of God.
You keep posting this. It states "then" in relationship to the firstfruits, and the Second Coming. 3 parts to the order of being made alive.


The Cross

The Second Coming.

Then End.

3 different and distinct presentations.

You deny the OT redeemed were presented at the time of the Cross. You deny Jesus handing back a perfect and subdued creation. Look up what subdued means in Genesis 1. Being brought under subjection is not burning every thing up, leaving nothing left of creation, only to create a new set of heavens and earths. Jesus is not presenting the new creation to God. Jesus is handing back a complete and subdued current creation. That is the one affected by Adam, not a new heaven and earth, not associated with Adam at all.
 

Timtofly

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LOL. That is all you have now: insults. You have moved from the Premil Phase 1 avoidance, to Phase 2 name calling and insults. All that is left now is Phase 3, run.
Seems you have the same issue with your post. Avoid the content of their post. Accuse them of avoiding your points. Which is calling them a liar, name calling and insulting. Then you run away until they make another post. And you start the process all over again.
 

WPM

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You keep posting this. It states "then" in relationship to the firstfruits, and the Second Coming. 3 parts to the order of being made alive.


The Cross

The Second Coming.

Then End.

3 different and distinct presentations.

You deny the OT redeemed were presented at the time of the Cross. You deny Jesus handing back a perfect and subdued creation. Look up what subdued means in Genesis 1. Being brought under subjection is not burning every thing up, leaving nothing left of creation, only to create a new set of heavens and earths. Jesus is not presenting the new creation to God. Jesus is handing back a complete and subdued current creation. That is the one affected by Adam, not a new heaven and earth, not associated with Adam at all.

No, you seem to have a reading problem. Jesus is the firstfruits now. It is an ongoing reality. You do not seem to grasp that. This is not just simply a historic event, this phrase describes who Jesus is today.
 

Timtofly

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No, you seem to have a reading problem. Jesus is the firstfruits now. It is an ongoing reality. You do not seem to grasp that. This is not just simply a historic event, this phrase describes who Jesus is today.
No, you don't understand the firstfruits are those OT redeemed. All are made alive, not just Christ, because Christ was never in Adam's dead state. Christ is not the one receiving redemption out of Adam's condition. Christ was the one doing the act that redeemed lost humanity. The firstfruits are the one's being made alive in Christ. The OT were the ones to receive the physical resurrection out of the valley of the shadow of death, Abraham's bosom.

"But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept."

This is not saying Jesus literally became all of the OT redeemed. The firstfruits are the them that slept, past tense. The OT redeemed are already made alive and physically waiting with physical Jesus in Paradise. They were the first in the order given next:

Each presented in their order:

Christ with the OT firstfruits. All those since Christ are still firstfruits for the last 1993 years.

Afterwards: those alive at His Second Coming, not any of the firstfruits. They were already presented. Those already physically gone, at the Second Coming, do not need to be made alive, out of Adam's dead flesh. Only those alive and remain on the earth in Adam's dead flesh, need to complete the process.

Then comes the end after he has made all creation subject. "The end" is predicated on the rest of the thought. "The end" is not the final word of "afterward they that are Christ's at his coming".

"Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."

There is no indication that at the Second Coming, death is destroyed. In fact people are still dying in the process of the Second Coming. The Second Coming is not the thought of when the kingdom is handed back, or Paul would have written it that way.

Even in the Greek there is a break in thought between the coming and the end. The reason being is the continued thought: "For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet."

Reigning is not part of the order of being made alive. Reigning is what happens from the beginning until the process is complete.

Adam's flesh being changed was the point Paul started out with, and reigning was the thought Paul ended with.

Even though Reigning is mentioned, it is not the Reigning that has an order nor does Reigning have a beginning and an end. That would be the wrong interpretation to say Christ stops reigning at the pronounced "end".

Your claim "the end", at the Second Coming, when, according to you, nothing exist is not handing back that which is made alive. That would be handing back nothing except a few redeemed souls still alive on the earth. That is not bringing the earth under subjection, but incinerating creation. What part of the finality of your own interpretation of 2 Peter 3 are you failing to see? The climactic final end of all existence being burned up, is not handing back a creation brought under subjection. That is literally handing back nothing, no creation at all. The total removal of all existence is not even implied in this verse: "and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." That is not implying nor stating all of creation is burned up. The "them" is referring to humans not creation.

The end pertains to the order of humanity being made alive. The order continues though, because at that point Paul introduces creation itself. Not only is Paul stating humanity is made alive, but creation itself. Incinerating creation is not making creation alive from Adam's disobedience.

"For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order."

This does not exclude creation. One must reconcile along with Paul, that all of creation is included not just mankind. That is why reigning is introduced.


"For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

This is not implying nor stating that destroying all of creation is the same thing as subduing all things. Removing death itself from creation is part of the order of reconciliation. This implies creation is restored not just humanity. Adam brought death into the world. Death is the last enemy to be removed. Removing creation from existence, the Amil explanation, is not making creation alive and removing death.

Creation is handed back in a made alive condition, with no death in creation period. Amil want us to accept creation is handed back in a dead state, totally destroyed. Death is the last enemy destroyed, not creation itself. Creation is not destroyed but subdued.

Genesis 1:28

"And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it:"

That is what it means to subdue creation. Not the Amil method of incineration. Jesus will have dominion over a perfect creation at the end. Not the Amil version where the end is the destruction by fire. Fire is part of the cleansing process like the water of Noah's day. The Flood was not over that first day it rained. It took months for the Flood to finish, and years of aftershocks. Creation will not be over the day of the cleansing fire. Creation will go on in a new heaven and earth fashion, until it is subdued according to Genesis 1:28.
 

WPM

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No, you don't understand the firstfruits are those OT redeemed. All are made alive, not just Christ, because Christ was never in Adam's dead state. Christ is not the one receiving redemption out of Adam's condition. Christ was the one doing the act that redeemed lost humanity. The firstfruits are the one's being made alive in Christ. The OT were the ones to receive the physical resurrection out of the valley of the shadow of death, Abraham's bosom.

"But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept."

This is not saying Jesus literally became all of the OT redeemed. The firstfruits are the them that slept, past tense. The OT redeemed are already made alive and physically waiting with physical Jesus in Paradise. They were the first in the order given next:

Each presented in their order:

Christ with the OT firstfruits. All those since Christ are still firstfruits for the last 1993 years.

Afterwards: those alive at His Second Coming, not any of the firstfruits. They were already presented. Those already physically gone, at the Second Coming, do not need to be made alive, out of Adam's dead flesh. Only those alive and remain on the earth in Adam's dead flesh, need to complete the process.

Then comes the end after he has made all creation subject. "The end" is predicated on the rest of the thought. "The end" is not the final word of "afterward they that are Christ's at his coming".

"Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."

There is no indication that at the Second Coming, death is destroyed. In fact people are still dying in the process of the Second Coming. The Second Coming is not the thought of when the kingdom is handed back, or Paul would have written it that way.

Even in the Greek there is a break in thought between the coming and the end. The reason being is the continued thought: "For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet."

Reigning is not part of the order of being made alive. Reigning is what happens from the beginning until the process is complete.

Adam's flesh being changed was the point Paul started out with, and reigning was the thought Paul ended with.

Even though Reigning is mentioned, it is not the Reigning that has an order nor does Reigning have a beginning and an end. That would be the wrong interpretation to say Christ stops reigning at the pronounced "end".

Your claim "the end", at the Second Coming, when, according to you, nothing exist is not handing back that which is made alive. That would be handing back nothing except a few redeemed souls still alive on the earth. That is not bringing the earth under subjection, but incinerating creation. What part of the finality of your own interpretation of 2 Peter 3 are you failing to see? The climactic final end of all existence being burned up, is not handing back a creation brought under subjection. That is literally handing back nothing, no creation at all. The total removal of all existence is not even implied in this verse: "and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." That is not implying nor stating all of creation is burned up. The "them" is referring to humans not creation.

The end pertains to the order of humanity being made alive. The order continues though, because at that point Paul introduces creation itself. Not only is Paul stating humanity is made alive, but creation itself. Incinerating creation is not making creation alive from Adam's disobedience.

"For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order."

This does not exclude creation. One must reconcile along with Paul, that all of creation is included not just mankind. That is why reigning is introduced.


"For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

This is not implying nor stating that destroying all of creation is the same thing as subduing all things. Removing death itself from creation is part of the order of reconciliation. This implies creation is restored not just humanity. Adam brought death into the world. Death is the last enemy to be removed. Removing creation from existence, the Amil explanation, is not making creation alive and removing death.

Creation is handed back in a made alive condition, with no death in creation period. Amil want us to accept creation is handed back in a dead state, totally destroyed. Death is the last enemy destroyed, not creation itself. Creation is not destroyed but subdued.

Genesis 1:28

"And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it:"

That is what it means to subdue creation. Not the Amil method of incineration. Jesus will have dominion over a perfect creation at the end. Not the Amil version where the end is the destruction by fire. Fire is part of the cleansing process like the water of Noah's day. The Flood was not over that first day it rained. It took months for the Flood to finish, and years of aftershocks. Creation will not be over the day of the cleansing fire. Creation will go on in a new heaven and earth fashion, until it is subdued according to Genesis 1:28.

Hello! Christ was the firstfruits at the resurrection; Christ is the firstfruits reigning now and He will be the firstfruits at His glorious Second Advent. 1 Corinthians 15:20 says, “NOW is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.”

The reference here to “firstfruits” clearly delineates how Christ has now “become the firstfruits” rather than merely was or will be; Christ is heavens eternal “firstfruits.”
 

WPM

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No, you don't understand the firstfruits are those OT redeemed. All are made alive, not just Christ, because Christ was never in Adam's dead state. Christ is not the one receiving redemption out of Adam's condition. Christ was the one doing the act that redeemed lost humanity. The firstfruits are the one's being made alive in Christ. The OT were the ones to receive the physical resurrection out of the valley of the shadow of death, Abraham's bosom.

"But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept."

This is not saying Jesus literally became all of the OT redeemed. The firstfruits are the them that slept, past tense. The OT redeemed are already made alive and physically waiting with physical Jesus in Paradise. They were the first in the order given next:

Each presented in their order:

Christ with the OT firstfruits. All those since Christ are still firstfruits for the last 1993 years.

Afterwards: those alive at His Second Coming, not any of the firstfruits. They were already presented. Those already physically gone, at the Second Coming, do not need to be made alive, out of Adam's dead flesh. Only those alive and remain on the earth in Adam's dead flesh, need to complete the process.

Then comes the end after he has made all creation subject. "The end" is predicated on the rest of the thought. "The end" is not the final word of "afterward they that are Christ's at his coming".

"Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."

There is no indication that at the Second Coming, death is destroyed. In fact people are still dying in the process of the Second Coming. The Second Coming is not the thought of when the kingdom is handed back, or Paul would have written it that way.

Even in the Greek there is a break in thought between the coming and the end. The reason being is the continued thought: "For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet."

Reigning is not part of the order of being made alive. Reigning is what happens from the beginning until the process is complete.

Adam's flesh being changed was the point Paul started out with, and reigning was the thought Paul ended with.

Even though Reigning is mentioned, it is not the Reigning that has an order nor does Reigning have a beginning and an end. That would be the wrong interpretation to say Christ stops reigning at the pronounced "end".

Your claim "the end", at the Second Coming, when, according to you, nothing exist is not handing back that which is made alive. That would be handing back nothing except a few redeemed souls still alive on the earth. That is not bringing the earth under subjection, but incinerating creation. What part of the finality of your own interpretation of 2 Peter 3 are you failing to see? The climactic final end of all existence being burned up, is not handing back a creation brought under subjection. That is literally handing back nothing, no creation at all. The total removal of all existence is not even implied in this verse: "and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." That is not implying nor stating all of creation is burned up. The "them" is referring to humans not creation.

The end pertains to the order of humanity being made alive. The order continues though, because at that point Paul introduces creation itself. Not only is Paul stating humanity is made alive, but creation itself. Incinerating creation is not making creation alive from Adam's disobedience.

"For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order."

This does not exclude creation. One must reconcile along with Paul, that all of creation is included not just mankind. That is why reigning is introduced.


"For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

This is not implying nor stating that destroying all of creation is the same thing as subduing all things. Removing death itself from creation is part of the order of reconciliation. This implies creation is restored not just humanity. Adam brought death into the world. Death is the last enemy to be removed. Removing creation from existence, the Amil explanation, is not making creation alive and removing death.

Creation is handed back in a made alive condition, with no death in creation period. Amil want us to accept creation is handed back in a dead state, totally destroyed. Death is the last enemy destroyed, not creation itself. Creation is not destroyed but subdued.

Genesis 1:28

"And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it:"

That is what it means to subdue creation. Not the Amil method of incineration. Jesus will have dominion over a perfect creation at the end. Not the Amil version where the end is the destruction by fire. Fire is part of the cleansing process like the water of Noah's day. The Flood was not over that first day it rained. It took months for the Flood to finish, and years of aftershocks. Creation will not be over the day of the cleansing fire. Creation will go on in a new heaven and earth fashion, until it is subdued according to Genesis 1:28.
This earth will not be eliminated. It will be regenerated at the coming of Jesus. We see that in Psalm 102:25-27, Matthew 19:28, Acts 3:19-21, 2 Peter 3:7–13, and Hebrews 1:10-12.

Christ is coming back to a perfect glorified regenerated earth to reign forever with the suitably attired glorified saints. But, it will not be sin-cursed, goat-infested, or death-blighted, as Premils argue.
 

Timtofly

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This earth will not be eliminated. It will be regenerated at the coming of Jesus. We see that in Psalm 102:25-27, Matthew 19:28, Acts 3:19-21, 2 Peter 3:7–13, and Hebrews 1:10-12.

Christ is coming back to a perfect glorified regenerated earth to reign forever with the suitably attired glorified saints. But, it will not be sin-cursed, goat-infested, or death-blighted, as Premils argue.
I never said otherwise.

After the thousand year reign creation will return to God, and God will start with a totally different creation per Revelation 21. There will be no sun nor moon but the New Jerusalem in the NHNE. It will be a 1200 square mile cube with all the light necessary.
 

WPM

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I never said otherwise.

After the thousand year reign creation will return to God, and God will start with a totally different creation per Revelation 21. There will be no sun nor moon but the New Jerusalem in the NHNE. It will be a 1200 square mile cube with all the light necessary.

No. That occurs at the second coming. This is another proof of the error of what you have been taught. Thankfully, creation will be finally regenerated and freed from the curse in the future (Romans 8:19-23 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-55. What is more, this earth will not be eliminated. It will be regenerated at the coming of Jesus. We see that in Psalm 102:25-27, Matthew 19:28, Acts 3:19-21, 2 Peter 3:7–13, and Hebrews 1:10-12.

Christ is coming back to a perfect glorified regenerated earth to reign forever with the suitably attired glorified saints. But, it will not be sin-cursed, goat-infested, or death-blighted, as Premils argue.
 

Timtofly

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No. That occurs at the second coming. This is another proof of the error of what you have been taught. Thankfully, creation will be finally regenerated and freed from the curse in the future (Romans 8:19-23 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-55. What is more, this earth will not be eliminated. It will be regenerated at the coming of Jesus. We see that in Psalm 102:25-27, Matthew 19:28, Acts 3:19-21, 2 Peter 3:7–13, and Hebrews 1:10-12.

Christ is coming back to a perfect glorified regenerated earth to reign forever with the suitably attired glorified saints. But, it will not be sin-cursed, goat-infested, or death-blighted, as Premils argue.
Still not changing what I said.

Of course this creation will be regenerated for the Millennium reign and those in it.

Your point is not what Revelation teaches. Revelation is my teacher, so you must get your understanding from human teachers, if you believe what you teach.

Creation is handed back after earth is subdued, not just made new.
 

WPM

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Still not changing what I said.

Of course this creation will be regenerated for the Millennium reign and those in it.

Your point is not what Revelation teaches. Revelation is my teacher, so you must get your understanding from human teachers, if you believe what you teach.

Creation is handed back after earth is subdued, not just made new.

No. Your millennium involves sin and death. It is not delivered from the bondage of corruption. Those passages expose Premil.
 

Timtofly

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No. Your millennium involves sin and death. It is not delivered from the bondage of corruption. Those passages expose Premil.
Nope. Your millennium is. Not mine. Your millennium is the here and now full of sin.

Sin will be over like Daniel 9:24 declares. All of Adam's dead corruptible flesh will be dead at Armageddon. Only the righteous will live during the coming Day of the Lord.
 

WPM

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Nope. Your millennium is. Not mine. Your millennium is the here and now full of sin.

Sin will be over like Daniel 9:24 declares. All of Adam's dead corruptible flesh will be dead at Armageddon. Only the righteous will live during the coming Day of the Lord.
Your supposed future millennium is overrun by billions of wicked as the sand of the sea who sin and die. You know that. You have admitted that. This is another proof of your false teaching.
 

WPM

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Nope. Your millennium is. Not mine. Your millennium is the here and now full of sin.

Sin will be over like Daniel 9:24 declares. All of Adam's dead corruptible flesh will be dead at Armageddon. Only the righteous will live during the coming Day of the Lord.
Your supposed future millennium is overrun by billions of wicked as the sand of the sea who sin and die. You know that. You have admitted that. This is another proof of your false teaching.