Must a Christian Work to Keep Themself Sinless in Order to Keep Their Salvation?

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Ronald David Bruno

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When Paul speaks about running the race to obtain the Prize, is he talking about the Prize of Salvation, or a prize which is a reward for deeds?

See 1 Cor. 9:24-27. "The prize" being here identified Is a "crown" and is not Salvation. A crown is a reward.

See Phil. 3:12-13 where Paul says he has "not obtained the prize." Is that supposed to mean he has not obtained Salvation? No. It means he has not obtained the reward for Godly service.

People constantly in error confuse Salvation with Discipleship. These people are known as Lordship preachers and Calvinists. We can pray for and help them.

Those who persevere to the end will be saved. Faith is a gift and you must hold onto it, carry it with you on the path towards salvation. It is not works. I think it is distinguishing those who have faith who persevere (as a seed planted in fertile soil) with those who do not. They don't finish because they lost their faith, it was'nt nourished and was planted in shallow soil.
As far as rewards, yes that is apart from salvation in accordance to your service. Billy Graham will certainly get more than most of us, Mother Teresa too.
What is interesting though is what could be a reward in addition to eternal life? People you helped/ loved along the way, contributed to their salvation by cooperating with God? They will be eternally grateful and your relationship with them is a reward. Certainly it is not some thing like a bigger mansion. Maybe a higher position?
 
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BARNEY BRIGHT

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Perhaps you could say that, at least based on your experience and social interactions. And in my side of that, I experience such love among my brethren in Christ.

There is no issue with regards as to what love is.

My argument is that it is Jesus Christ who unites His people.

Tong
R4110
I have agreed that Jesus unites his people. I just don't see that unity in all the many different denomanations in Christendom where there are so many divisions among Protestants and Catholics. Just one aspect of the history of the Catholic Church and the Protestant churches is when seeing the lack of love Catholics and protestant have when they kill each other in the name of some human governments in times of war. Catholics killing Catholics and Protestants killing Protestants. No one will ever convince me that putting a bullet in a fellow believers head on blowing him up with a bomb of some kind is showing love to each other, much less convince me they have love among themselves. Like I said this is just one aspect of their lack of love. The history of Christendom has shown it's fruits and Catholics and Protestants can say they're Christians all they want but their fruits say something else.
 

Tong2020

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I have agreed that Jesus unites his people. I just don't see that unity in all the many different denomanations in Christendom where there are so many divisions among Protestants and Catholics. Just one aspect of the history of the Catholic Church and the Protestant churches is when seeing the lack of love Catholics and protestant have when they kill each other in the name of some human governments in times of war. Catholics killing Catholics and Protestants killing Protestants. No one will ever convince me that putting a bullet in a fellow believers head on blowing him up with a bomb of some kind is showing love to each other, much less convince me they have love among themselves. Like I said this is just one aspect of their lack of love. The history of Christendom has shown it's fruits and Catholics and Protestants can say they're Christians all they want but their fruits say something else.
Good then, you agree that it is the Lord Jesus Christ who unites His people.

As with regards what you are saying about the Catholics and protestants, much of that is coming from the fact that in the catholic congregation and in the protestant congregations, there are nominal catholics and nominal protestants who does not truly have the Holy Spirit indwelling, not to mention, there are false teachers among them. I believe that there are also such nominal JW in your congregation. But going back to my point, the true brethren, whether catholic or protestant, certainly are united in the Lord Jesus Christ and have the love that comes from God, and they love one another with the love of Christ.

However, the fact that the JW believes in a different Jesus that catholics and protestants believe, I guess makes the difference. There could not be any unity of the JW with catholics or protestants who believe in the trinity of God.

Tong
R4111
 

MatthewG

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Hello to anyone reading this post,

Reading the last bit of what Tong2020 had said this came to me:

To me it is possible to have unity with anyone, with Christ as your main source of nutrients.

They may have different views but can you love them all the same way Christ loved? Remember when Jesus was on the cross and spoke to His Father; saying Forgive them Father for they know not what they do.

Ask this question to yourself:

Am I a believing Christian who can love others regardless of their denominations even if they are a professing Atheist?

Just question yourself that and talk with God about it. Always search your heart because God already knows you...

Everything about you; but your own choices are your own choice and God still even knows those next moves you make but He doesn't predetermine them. Though God knitted you in the womb at conception; He allows you to make free choices.

Never thought a day in my life that God would allow me to be able to teach the bible with no degree or having to worry about someone being over me while doing it. God is amazing, profound and wonderful. It is wonderful to have the Father in heaven, and the Lord Jesus Christ with you daily in life.

Take care, and God bless.
 

Tong2020

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Hello to anyone reading this post,

Reading the last bit of what Tong2020 had said this came to me:

To me it is possible to have unity with anyone, with Christ as your main source of nutrients.

They may have different views but can you love them all the same way Christ loved? Remember when Jesus was on the cross and spoke to His Father; saying Forgive them Father for they know not what they do.

Ask this question to yourself:

Am I a believing Christian who can love others regardless of their denominations even if they are a professing Atheist?

Just question yourself that and talk with God about it. Always search your heart because God already knows you...

Everything about you; but your own choices are your own choice and God still even knows those next moves you make but He doesn't predetermine them. Though God knitted you in the womb at conception; He allows you to make free choices.

Never thought a day in my life that God would allow me to be able to teach the bible with no degree or having to worry about someone being over me while doing it. God is amazing, profound and wonderful. It is wonderful to have the Father in heaven, and the Lord Jesus Christ with you daily in life.

Take care, and God bless.

<<<They may have different views but can you love them all the same way Christ loved?>>>

We surely can love each other, but only those who have the true Jesus can love with the love of Jesus. Those who don’t have Jesus or don’t have the true Jesus could not.

Tong
R4112
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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Good then, you agree that it is the Lord Jesus Christ who unites His people.

As with regards what you are saying about the Catholics and protestants, much of that is coming from the fact that in the catholic congregation and in the protestant congregations, there are nominal catholics and nominal protestants who does not truly have the Holy Spirit indwelling, not to mention, there are false teachers among them. I believe that there are also such nominal JW in your congregation. But going back to my point, the true brethren, whether catholic or protestant, certainly are united in the Lord Jesus Christ and have the love that comes from God, and they love one another with the love of Christ.

However, the fact that the JW believes in a different Jesus that catholics and protestants believe, I guess makes the difference. There could not be any unity of the JW with catholics or protestants who believe in the trinity of God.

Tong
R4111

There is that possibility there are nominal JW in the organization, I'm not going to say I know for a fact there not because I don't know nor have I met all JW. Also I don't believe I can read minds and hearts. The fact that there is or is not nominal christians among the JW isn't the point because I just don't believe the Catholics or the protestant churches are or ever were true christians. I believe they are and always were the weeds that Jesus spoke of. I believe the Catholics and protestants to be the imitation christians and always were. They flat out deny that God has a Only Begotten Son who he sent to the world of mankind to save mankind. They flat out deny that the Word is the Only Begotten Son of God . Scriptures such as John 3:16 show that God sent his Only Begotten Son to mankind as a perfect human as the first human Adam was and that God who loved his Only Begotten Son as much as he did was willing to sacrifice his son because he loved mankind and didn't want mankind to perish. So all those individuals who exercises faith in this loving act of Jehovah God and his Only Begotten Son will not perish. The Catholics and protestants don't believe this they believe Jesus to be God not the Only Begotten So of God. The Catholics and protestants believe the Word is God so when the scriptures say that the Word became flesh, meaning the Word became human Catholics and protestants believe that it was God who became human. So since the Catholics and protestants believe the Word is God which means they believe it was God who became human they are denying the Word is the Only Begotten Son of God and denying it was the Only Begotten Son of God who became human. Which means by the way they believe and teach they are denying John 3:16. They also deny other scriptures that show not that Jesus is God but that the Only Begotten Son of God has a father and God. A few of these scriptures are John 17:3; John 20:17; Ephesians 1:17; these are just a few. The scriptures explicitly show that Jesus was and is the Only Begotten Son of God. The Catholics and protestants deny this.
 

Tong2020

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There is that possibility there are nominal JW in the organization, I'm not going to say I know for a fact there not because I don't know nor have I met all JW. Also I don't believe I can read minds and hearts. The fact that there is or is not nominal christians among the JW isn't the point because I just don't believe the Catholics or the protestant churches are or ever were true christians. I believe they are and always were the weeds that Jesus spoke of. I believe the Catholics and protestants to be the imitation christians and always were. They flat out deny that God has a Only Begotten Son who he sent to the world of mankind to save mankind. They flat out deny that the Word is the Only Begotten Son of God . Scriptures such as John 3:16 show that God sent his Only Begotten Son to mankind as a perfect human as the first human Adam was and that God who loved his Only Begotten Son as much as he did was willing to sacrifice his son because he loved mankind and didn't want mankind to perish. So all those individuals who exercises faith in this loving act of Jehovah God and his Only Begotten Son will not perish. The Catholics and protestants don't believe this they believe Jesus to be God not the Only Begotten So of God. The Catholics and protestants believe the Word is God so when the scriptures say that the Word became flesh, meaning the Word became human Catholics and protestants believe that it was God who became human. So since the Catholics and protestants believe the Word is God which means they believe it was God who became human they are denying the Word is the Only Begotten Son of God and denying it was the Only Begotten Son of God who became human. Which means by the way they believe and teach they are denying John 3:16. They also deny other scriptures that show not that Jesus is God but that the Only Begotten Son of God has a father and God. A few of these scriptures are John 17:3; John 20:17; Ephesians 1:17; these are just a few. The scriptures explicitly show that Jesus was and is the Only Begotten Son of God. The Catholics and protestants deny this.

I won’t engage in the rest of what you say there regarding the person of Jesus Christ, at least not now.

You said “There is that possibility there are nominal JW in the organization, I'm not going to say I know for a fact there not because I don't know nor have I met all JW.”

If you are not sure or can’t be sure about that, then it means that the JW congregation isn’t part of or is not identified with the first century congregation of Christians. And if not, then you know what that means.

Tong
R4113
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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I won’t engage in the rest of what you say there regarding the person of Jesus Christ, at least not now.

You said “There is that possibility there are nominal JW in the organization, I'm not going to say I know for a fact there not because I don't know nor have I met all JW.”

If you are not sure or can’t be sure about that, then it means that the JW congregation isn’t part of or is not identified with the first century congregation of Christians. And if not, then you know what that means.

Tong
R4113
When I said that about the JW I wasn't including the anointed of God, The ones God elected to be Kings and priests with Jesus in that heavenly messianic kingdom. God wouldn't choose nominal Christians to be kings and priests with Jesus in that heavenly messianic kingdom.
Those who are among the great crowd of JW who are not the ones who God elected to be kings priests with Jesus in that heavenly messianic kingdom I'm saying they could be nominal christians among the great crowd of JW.
 

Tong2020

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When I said that about the JW I wasn't including the anointed of God, The ones God elected to be Kings and priests with Jesus in that heavenly messianic kingdom. God wouldn't choose nominal Christians to be kings and priests with Jesus in that heavenly messianic kingdom.
Those who are among the great crowd of JW who are not the ones who God elected to be kings priests with Jesus in that heavenly messianic kingdom I'm saying they could be nominal christians among the great crowd of JW.
Does not refute my point.

By the way, in the JW congregation, were there false teachers among them?

Tong
R4114
 
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BARNEY BRIGHT

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Does not refute my point.

By the way, in the JW congregation, were there false teachers among them?

Tong
R4114
There have been those that started teaching something that was unscriptural and have been is fellowshipped for it. They no longer belong to the JW congregation.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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Tong2020 said:
Does not refute my point.[/Quote\]
Actually it does, but I don't expect someone who belongs to the Catholics or protestant churches to believe or understand that. The history of the Catholic and protestant churches, their fruits, show who they truly are and their not christians. They can make all the excuses they want it doesn't excuse these religious organizations for what they have done.
 

Tong2020

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There have been those that started teaching something that was unscriptural and have been is fellowshipped for it. They no longer belong to the JW congregation.
Like what? What was their worst false teaching? And when was that? Did JW send them away or did they went out of their own accord?

Tong
R4115
 

Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
Does not refute my point.[/Quote\]
Actually it does, but I don't expect someone who belongs to the Catholics or protestant churches to believe or understand that. The history of the Catholic and protestant churches, their fruits, show who they truly are and their not christians. They can make all the excuses they want it doesn't excuse these religious organizations for what they have done.
Nope, it does not refute my point, whether you insist it does. And the point I was referring to is not any of what you say there, but that, and I quote

“If you are not sure or can’t be sure about that, then it means that the JW congregation isn’t part of or is not identified with the first century congregation of Christians. And if not, then you know what that means.”

Tong
R4116
 

Curtis

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When I said that about the JW I wasn't including the anointed of God, The ones God elected to be Kings and priests with Jesus in that heavenly messianic kingdom. God wouldn't choose nominal Christians to be kings and priests with Jesus in that heavenly messianic kingdom.
Those who are among the great crowd of JW who are not the ones who God elected to be kings priests with Jesus in that heavenly messianic kingdom I'm saying they could be nominal christians among the great crowd of JW.

Jesus returns to earth and rules on the earth. The watchtower, as usual, has it wrong.

Those who reign and rule with Jesus, do so with Him, on the earth - not from heaven:

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Maranatha
 

ChristisGod

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I have agreed that Jesus unites his people. I just don't see that unity in all the many different denomanations in Christendom where there are so many divisions among Protestants and Catholics. Just one aspect of the history of the Catholic Church and the Protestant churches is when seeing the lack of love Catholics and protestant have when they kill each other in the name of some human governments in times of war. Catholics killing Catholics and Protestants killing Protestants. No one will ever convince me that putting a bullet in a fellow believers head on blowing him up with a bomb of some kind is showing love to each other, much less convince me they have love among themselves. Like I said this is just one aspect of their lack of love. The history of Christendom has shown it's fruits and Catholics and Protestants can say they're Christians all they want but their fruits say something else.
And within the WTS/ JW organization there has been many divisions, changing doctrines , prophecies and members leaving over abuse spiritually, sexually, mentally and physically and it’s been documented by it’s members. And it’s leadership hides and covers it up just like the Catholic Church covered up the abuse from the priests.

So your organization is not immune .

hope this helps !!!
 

Curtis

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When Paul speaks about running the race to obtain the Prize, is he talking about the Prize of Salvation, or a prize which is a reward for deeds?

See 1 Cor. 9:24-27. "The prize" being here identified Is a "crown" and is not Salvation. A crown is a reward.

See Phil. 3:12-13 where Paul says he has "not obtained the prize." Is that supposed to mean he has not obtained Salvation? No. It means he has not obtained the reward for Godly service.

People constantly in error confuse Salvation with Discipleship. These people are known as Lordship preachers and Calvinists. We can pray for and help them.

Here’s one you and some others missed, by Paul:

Paul says he has to subjugate his flesh daily, lest after preaching salvation to others, he end up a castaway.

1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring itinto subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a CASTAWAY.

The word castaway is ADOKIMOS in the Greek - reprobate - castaway and rejected by God.


G96 (Strong)

ἀδόκιμος

adokimos

ad-ok'-ee-mos

From G1 (as a negative particle) and G1384; unapproved, that is, rejected; by implication worthless(literally or morally): - castaway, rejected, reprobate.

Total KJV occurrences: 8

Paul said he could end up a reprobate if he didn’t subjugate his flesh with its sinful desires, daily.

Albert Barnes exegetes the verse:

“The simple idea of Paul is, that he was afraid that he should be disapproved, rejected, cast off; that it would appear, after all, that he had no religion, and would then be cast away as unfit to enter into heaven”.

John Wesley also exegetes 1 Corinthians 9:27:

This single text may give us a just notion of the scriptural doctrine of election and reprobation; and clearly shows us, that particular persons are not in holy writ represented as elected absolutely and unconditionally to eternal life, or predestinated absolutely and unconditionally to eternal death; but that believers in general are elected to enjoy the Christian privileges on earth; which if they abuse, those very elect persons will become reprobate. St. Paul was certainly an elect person, if ever there was one; and yet he declares it was possible he himself might become a reprobate. Nay, he actually would have become such, if he had not thus kept his body under, even though he had been so long an elect person, a Christian, and an apostle.

Paul said he could end up a reprobate if he didn’t subjugate his flesh with its sinful desires, daily.

By subjugation of his body, Paul refers to the flesh, the fleshly desire to sin, i e, commit works of the flesh, as seen in another of Paul’s warnings to the saints, to the brethren against being DECEIVED:

Gal 5:16 This - I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Gal 5:18 But IF ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Gal 5:19 Now the WORKS OF THE FLESH are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell YOU again, as I have also told YOU in time past, that they which DO such things shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God.

Then there’s one more text from Paul that ties in with the 1 Corinthians 9:7 text about being a castaway/reprobate:

In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul says they had heard him preach the gospel, had received it, and stand in it, and they are saved:

1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved,

EXCEPT.

Paul’s words make their salvation conditional, by warning them that though they’d heard the gospel, received it, stand in it, and ARE SAVED, that they can end up believing IN VAIN, ifthey don’t keep in mind all that he taught them:

1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, IFye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have BELIEVED IN VAIN.

What was it that Paul taught them that they had to keep in memory that he had preached to them, that can affect their salvation, and cause their receiving the gospel, standing in it, and being saved, to be IN VAIN?

He taught them that he has to control and subjugate his flesh daily, lest after preaching to others, he himself would end up a CASTAWAY - adokimos in the Greek. - a reprobate (rejected by God as one that failed the test), as was just covered in this comment.

And Paul warned the church to examine themselves, whether they remain in the faith, or are reprobates:

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
 
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BARNEY BRIGHT

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Like what? What was their worst false teaching? And when was that? Did JW send them away or did they went out of their own accord?

Tong
R4115

There were some who began to believe and teach that the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ wasn't necessary so they weren't no longer considered JW and no longer allowed to be a part of JW organization because JW have always believed that the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ was necessary. I don't remember exactly when that was.
 

Tong2020

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There were some who began to believe and teach that the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ wasn't necessary so they weren't no longer considered JW and no longer allowed to be a part of JW organization because JW have always believed that the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ was necessary. I don't remember exactly when that was.
In the congregation of believers in the Lord Jesus Christ, there were false teachers, even in the very early stages of its building. And the apostles labored so much to refute the false teaching/s of these false teachers. These false teachers went out from the church who were called Christians (not catholics, protestants, JW, or what have you). Such were called antiChrist.

Also, note that apostle Paul said in

2 Cor.11:4 For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted—you may well put up with it!

Gal. 1:6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.


Tong
R4117
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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And within the WTS/ JW organization there has been many divisions, changing doctrines , prophecies and members leaving over abuse spiritually, sexually, mentally and physically and it’s been documented by it’s members. And it’s leadership hides and covers it up just like the Catholic Church covered up the abuse from the priests.

So your organization is not immune .

hope this helps !!!
Actually the JW organization have no divisions or denominations in it. The fact you believe there are shows that you are ignorant of the JW organization.
The leaders have covered up nothing. You can disbelieve that all you want. But whenever the authorities wanted to see anything the JW have complied.
In the congregation of believers in the Lord Jesus Christ, there were false teachers, even in the very early stages of its building. And the apostles labored so much to refute the false teaching/s of these false teachers. These false teachers went out from the church who were called Christians (not catholics, protestants, JW, or what have you). Such were called antiChrist.

Also, note that apostle Paul said in

2 Cor.11:4 For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted—you may well put up with it!

Gal. 1:6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.


Tong
R4117
The thing is, when it comes to the scriptures, the scriptures always tell us that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God. The scriptures show what we must believe about Jesus Christ such scriptures as John 3:16 and John 17:3. There are other scriptures of course that tell us the relationship that Jesus Christ has with God such as John 20:17 or Ephesians 1:17 and many more, but the point I'm trying to make here is that people can say or believe Jesus is God, either by the Bible version they use or by the way they interpret scripture. I don't believe however that such scriptures as John 20:17, John 17:3, John 3:16 and Ephesians 1:17 to name a few are in any way which they have been written down to be inaccurate or untrue.
 

ChristisGod

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those deceived are blinded to their own deception and the ones they deceive- the watchtower-gate.
 
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