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BreadOfLife

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What you are missing, in your defensive response, is that your church, which was instituted in the 4th century after Christ’s death, was never “the church” that Christ started in the first place. It was a sad and erroneous counterfeit, already predicted by Jesus himself. The “weeds” of Jesus parable.

“By their fruits” Jesus said. Their fruits as well as the Protestants, was abominable.
Christianity was never about bloodshed or torture. It was the religion of peace…..headed by the “Prince of Peace”.
Again – I never mentioned the Catholic Church.

I simply pointed out your heretical claim that Christ’s Church was “destroyed” – when Jesus Himself said that it would NEVER be destroyed.

WHY do you disagree with Him??
WHY is He a LIAR in your eyes?

“Heresy” is basically what they called Jesus’ teachings, but who were the real “heretics”?….the ones pointing the fingers, who held the majority view.…and who supposedly worshipped the same God.
Can you see the pattern? The “heretical“ minority were in the right but the controlling majority were in the wrong.
I’m NOT talking about the teachings of Jesus.

I’m talking about YOUR heresy that Jesus is a LIAR.

Well since you asked…..
Jesus said to his God and Father….
”I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they do not belong to the world, just as I do not belong to the world. I am not asking you to take them out of the world, but I ask you to protect them from the evil one. They do not belong to the world, just as I do not belong to the world. Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth. As you have sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world.“ (John 17:14-18 NRSV Catholic Edition)
I asked you to give me Biblical proof for the false Protestant invention of Sola Scriptura.

If you can’t provide any – just
say so . . .
Who said that relying on the word of God was wrong?
Certainly NOT me . . .
Only the Catholic Church as far as Christian history is concerned.
This is patently FALSE - and you have ZERO proof of this.

But, you anti-Catholics usually make false accusations . . .

Jesus himself relied on Scripture to teach his disciples. The apostles quoted OT Scripture in their teachings, so where did the church get the idea that it was somehow able to be superseded by a man who occupied the highest position in the Vatican to introduce all manner of unscriptural doctrines. There was no hierarchy in first century Christianity….all were equals.
Peter was one of the 12 and all held equal status from God’s point of view.
Jesus and the Apostles ALSO relied on ORAL TRADITION . . .

Matt. 2:23
- the prophecy "He shall be a Nazarene" is ORAL TRADITION. It is not found in the Old Testament. This demonstrates that the apostles relied upon oral tradition and taught by oral tradition.

Matt 23:2 -
Jesus relies on the ORAL TRADITION of acknowledging Moses' seat of authority (which passed from Moses to Joshua to the Sanhedrin). This is not recorded in the Old Testament.

1 Cor. 10:4 -
Paul relies on the ORAL TRADITION of the rock following Moses. It is not recorded in the Old Testament. See Exod. 17:1-17 and Num. 20:2-13.

2 Timothy 3:8 - Paul relies on the ORAL TRADITION when speaking of Pharoah’s magicians, Jannes and Jambres. Their names are not recorded in the Old Testament.

Heb. 11:37 -
the author of Hebrews relies on the ORAL TRADITION of the martyrs being sawed in two. This is not recorded in the Old Testament.

Jude 9 -
Jude relies on the ORAL TRADITION of the Archangel Michael's dispute with satan over Moses' body. This is not found in the Old Testament.


Jude 14-15 - Jude relies on the ORAL TRADITION of Enoch's prophecy which is not recorded in the Old Testament.

Scripture IS Authoritative – and so id Christ’s Church.
In fact – the NT directly speaks more about the Church’s Authority than the Authority of Scripture
(Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).
Christianity has one leader and that is Jesus Christ.
Yup.
God has one form of substantiated communication with mankind and that is his written word…..the words of men cannot be substantiated…nor was there anything like a pope in first century Christianity. The Bible is our only source of truth…one truth that all must wholeheartedly accept. (1 Cor 1:10)
WRONG.

Not only have I proven you wrong with 7 examples (above), the Canon of Scripture itself is a Tradition from the Church. NOWHERE in Scripture are we givel a list of Books. That was decided in the 4th century by the Catholic Church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit – just like Jesus promised in John 16:12-15.

Please provide Biblical support for the false 16th century Protestant invention of
Sola Scriptura . . .
 
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D

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I seriously doubt that many JW's were ever Christians.

So list Jesus' comments about the Fire! Ever read the Bible???
Apparently you're never picked up on the fact that Jesus was Speaking metaphorically of fire . meaning figuratively, not literally . the grave /hell ,the same place . put a body into the earth/dirt and the earth will in time remove all flesh .the body will be destroyed .given enough time and the right circumstances even the bones are destroyed.
 

Jack

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Apparently you're never picked up on the fact that Jesus was Speaking metaphorically of fire . meaning figuratively, not literally .
No Scripture? Of course not.

Typical JW doctrine: 'The Bible doesn't mean what it says. It means what WE say.'
the grave /hell ,the same place . put a body into the earth/dirt and the earth will in time remove all flesh .the body will be destroyed .given enough time and the right circumstances even the bones are destroyed.
Do you need permission from the GB to quote Jesus?
 
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David Lamb

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Apparently you're never picked up on the fact that Jesus was Speaking metaphorically of fire . meaning figuratively, not literally . the grave /hell ,the same place . put a body into the earth/dirt and the earth will in time remove all flesh .the body will be destroyed .given enough time and the right circumstances even the bones are destroyed.
But whether the fire is literal or not, Jesus says that it is eternal.
 

Marvelloustime

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Beware that the light that is in one be not darkness , for great is that darkness .
Any light that omits THE HOLY and INSPIRED words Of GOD
is but darkness portraying itself as though it be light .
And no marvel for even satan himself can indeed appear as an angel of light .
Any love that omits the TRUTH of GOD
is of the world and NOT GOD , and is hate as it allows sin and unbelief upon its neighbors .
Beware my friend that the light that is in one be not darkness cloaking itself as light
and the love and mercies of GOD it do present END UP omitting TRUTH HE has said .
JESUS warned of us of such a place
While on earth
and later from HEAVEN itself with the revelation HE gave to JOHN .
REMEMBER that satan is a liar
and what is his desire
THAT all burn with him in the FIRE .
DO NOT ADD TOO or take F ROM that book . Satan is tricking many now to do just that
and worse many seem to love to have it so .
IF you want souls saved , PREACH THE DIRE NEED TO BELEIVE ON JESUS
and DO NOT bring a koran to try and make a point . Bring that bible .
IT is easy for me to see you are under the sway of the ecumincal love movment .
And out of love for your soul I am warning you for your own good . GET OUT OF IT and return to just the bible
to learn and to grow for yourself .
@amigo de christo
save-image.png
 

Aunty Jane

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Again – I never mentioned the Catholic Church.
Neither did Jesus. He was Jewish, not Catholic.
Not a single word of Scripture was penned by a Catholic writer.
I simply pointed out your heretical claim that Christ’s Church was “destroyed” – when Jesus Himself said that it would NEVER be destroyed.
And I explained that this was not correct, as the Bible itself foretold that Christianity would become corrupted by men....that corruption was beginning towards the end of the first century.....by the 4th century, the corrupted condition of the Christian Faith was ripe for the takeover of the church by a pagan Roman Emperor who mandated Roman Catholicism as the state religion for the Roman Empire.

This was not Christianity, but a poor substitute, (fusing pagan sun worship with weakened Christianity) under the control of men who’s power continued to corrupt those who were taught to accept their teachings and traditions as truth. None of it was.
What did Jesus say about the poor spiritual state of the Jewish faith?....those who supposedly followed the teachings of Moses and the prophets, speaking about his own Jewish leaders.....

Matt 15:7-9....to the Pharisees he said.....
“You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said: “‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’” (ESV)
“Teaching as doctrines the commands of men” was exactly what the Roman Church also did.....so it never was the church that Christ began...who told you it was?
WHY do you disagree with Him??
WHY is He a LIAR in your eyes?
I did not disagree with him....nor is he a liar...the leaders of your church have lied to the people for centuries, feeding them false doctrines and pretending to be “wheat” when they were really “weeds”.
I’m NOT talking about the teachings of Jesus.

I’m talking about YOUR heresy that Jesus is a LIAR.
It’s your heresy....Jesus never lied...his church lived in the voices of the martyrs that were put to death for their courage in exposing the lies taught to the masses for centuries by a completely corrupted church...
I asked you to give me Biblical proof for the false Protestant invention of Sola Scriptura.

If you can’t provide any – just
say so . . .
I believe Paul was the one who confirmed the Bible’s role for Jews and Christians....
2 Tim 3:16-17....
“All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.” (ESV)

What is included in “all Scripture”? Obviously all that presents as Scripture, including the teachings of Jesus and his apostles. We have “all Scripture” in our possession today.
So what was Scripture useful for?......
“for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.”

Do you see that? It’s the word of God, breathed by his spirit, so that “the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work”.
No mention of oral tradition here. God’s word was all that was needed.
Please provide Biblical support for the false 16th century Protestant invention of Sola Scriptura .
I just did. It’s not a 16th century invention...it was taught by Jesus and his apostles.
As Jesus said...”your word is truth”......Sorry if you find that inconvenient.
 
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Jack

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Neither did Jesus. He was Jewish, not Catholic.
Not a single word of Scripture was penned by a Catholic writer.

And I explained that this was not correct, as the Bible itself foretold that Christianity would become corrupted by men....that corruption was beginning towards the end of the first century.....by the 4th century, the corrupted condition of the Christian Faith was ripe for the takeover of the church by a pagan Roman Emperor who mandated Roman Catholicism as the state religion for the Roman Empire.

This was not Christianity, but a poor substitute, (fusing pagan sun worship with weakened Christianity) under the control of men who’s power continued to corrupt those who were taught to accept their teachings and traditions as truth. None of it was.
What did Jesus say about the poor spiritual state of the Jewish faith?....those who supposedly followed the teachings of Moses and the prophets, speaking about his own Jewish leaders.....

Matt 15:7-9....to the Pharisees he said.....
“You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said: “‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’” (ESV)
“Teaching as doctrines the commands of men” was exactly what the Roman Church also did.....so it never was the church that Christ began...who told you it was?

I did not disagree with him....nor is he a liar...the leaders of your church have lied to the people for centuries, feeding them false doctrines and pretending to be “wheat” when they were really “weeds”.

It’s your heresy....Jesus never lied...his church lived in the voices of the martyrs that were put to death for their courage in exposing the lies taught to the masses for centuries by a completely corrupted church...

I believe Paul was the one who confirmed the Bible’s role for Jews and Christians....
2 Tim 3:16-17....
“All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.” (ESV)

What is included in “all Scripture”? Obviously all that presents as Scripture, including the teachings of Jesus and his apostles. We have “all Scripture” in our possession today.
So what was Scripture useful for?......
“for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.”

Do you see that? It’s the word of God, breathed by his spirit, so that “the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work”.
No mention of oral tradition here. God’s word was all that was needed.

I just did. It’s not a 16th century invention...it was taught by Jesus and his apostles.
As Jesus said...”your word is truth”......Sorry if you find that inconvenient.
You said Jesus' doctrine of Hell Fire is Satanic! And the Christianity Board Statement of Faith!
 

David Lamb

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when something gets destroyed .....when does it come back?
In everyday conversation, never. But in the bible, we are told that the destroying lasts for ever:

“These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,” (2Th 1:9 NKJV)
 
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BreadOfLife

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Neither did Jesus. He was Jewish, not Catholic.
Not a single word of Scripture was penned by a Catholic writer.
The Apostles and their followers were ALL Catholics.
And I explained that this was not correct, as the Bible itself foretold that Christianity would become corrupted by men....that corruption was beginning towards the end of the first century.....by the 4th century, the corrupted condition of the Christian Faith was ripe for the takeover of the church by a pagan Roman Emperor who mandated Roman Catholicism as the state religion for the Roman Empire.
WRONG.

Jesus never said that His CHURCH would be come corrupted. He indicated that corrupt PEOPLE would arise. His Church would NEVER become corrupted. (Matt. 16:18).
What YOU are saying is blatant heresy.

Most of the remainder of your rest of your post is just the same old anti-Catholic ignorance - and nothing but a ploy to deflect attention away from your heretical statement that the Church was “Destroyed”. Just own-up to what you said because it is on this forum for ALL to see in
post# 206 . . .
I just did. It’s not a 16th century invention...it was taught by Jesus and his apostles.
It IS a 16th century invention and was NEVER taught by the historical Church for 1500 years. It was NEVER taught by Jesus or the Apostles.

The onus is on YOU to show me where . . .

As Jesus said...”your word is truth”......Sorry if you find that inconvenient.
You have failed to provide Biblical proof for Sola Scriptura, which is the belief that the Bible ALONE is our SOLE Authority.

And speaking of Authority - Jesus said the following about the Church:
Matt 16:19, 18:18

WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven; and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

John 16:12-15
“I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now. But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to ALL truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to YOU the things that are coming.
He will glorify me, because HE WILL TAKE FROM WHAT IS MINE AND DECLARE IT TO YOU. Everything that the Father has is MINE; for this reason I told you that HE WILL TAKE FROM WHAT IS MINE AND DECLARE IT TO YOU.

Luke 10:16
Whoever listens to YOU listens to ME. Whoever rejects YOU rejects ME. And whoever rejects ME rejects the ONE who sent ME."
 

ArkangeMikail

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Your Annihilationism, is a cult teaching.
Avoid it, as its a "doctrine of devils"... Heb 13:9 (KJV)

Here is the reality.

"Your body is dead because of sin", and your Spirit is not your body.
Humans are a Spiritual creation that exist inside a body.
This is called a "living soul"...in Gen, when God put the spirit into Adam's BODY.
The dead body goes to the Grave, while the living spirit leaves the body, and goes into eternity, ither as a Christan, or as a unbeliever.

If you go into eternity as a Christian, then you were born again, on earth, before you died, and you will go to Heaven.

If you go into eternity as a Unbeliever, or as a "religious but lost"....never born again, then you will not go to Heaven and Hell is the only other eternal destination that God offers.
what about the billions of humans that were born in the wrong religion?

what about the people who genuinely don't believe in Christ because they have no reason to believe? (they never saw Him)
 
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what about the billions of humans that were born in the wrong religion?

what about the people who genuinely don't believe in Christ because they have no reason to believe? (they never saw Him)
they then get this warning Rev. 18:4.
 

Jack

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like I said trick is getting you to open the Bible to actually read it
Basic JW doctrine; The Bible doesn't mean what it says. It means what WE say!

Tell us what Jesus said about THE EVERLASTING FIRE. Jesus mentioned it several times. Do you need the GB's permission?
 
D

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everlasting fire said metaphorically is equal to gone fore ever, not coming back ,never coming back. the living know, the dead don't . when it is they are destroyed they go into it knowing they don't come back.you know it because I have told you . perhaps you have confused Gehenna, with the thought that its where the hell fire is ?
 
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Consider Sodom and Gomorrah, a place that was destroyed by fire, everlasting fire, but if we go there today ,there is no fire.an yet that place is never coming back
 

Aunty Jane

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Jesus never said that His CHURCH would be come corrupted. He indicated that corrupt PEOPLE would arise. His Church would NEVER become corrupted. (Matt. 16:18).
What YOU are saying is blatant heresy.
There’s that word again “heresy”......a Catholic favorite, which basically means anything other that what Catholicism teaches....no matter that most of their doctrines find no place in Christ’s teachings at all.
If you think Christianity was not corrupted, then you are fully indoctrinated with Catholic heresy.
Most of the remainder of your rest of your post is just the same old anti-Catholic ignorance - and nothing but a ploy to deflect attention away from your heretical statement that the Church was “Destroyed”. Just own-up to what you said because it is on this forum for ALL to see in post# 206 . . .
And his “church” never was remotely connected to Catholicism....it was taken over by the “weeds” that Christ and the apostles foretold, but the “wheat” were still there among them, courageously defending the truth at the cost of their lives.
How about you “own up” to the disgraceful history of your unchristian church. You cannot undo what is recorded in history. Nor can you call that behavior “Christian”.
It IS a 16th century invention and was NEVER taught by the historical Church for 1500 years. It was NEVER taught by Jesus or the Apostles.

The onus is on YOU to show me where . . .
Again you fail to acknowledge that an apostasy did occur just as Jesus said it would....the devil was going to sow a disgusting counterfeit church......and it was not sown recently. This “falling away” from the faith began at the close of the first century, so, by the time that Roman Catholicism became the state religion of the Empire, (over 300 years later) the rot had well and truly set in.

It would not be until “the time of the end” prophesied by Daniel that Christ’s true church would separate from Christendom, just as his first disciples had to separate from Judaism. The command in Rev 18:4-5 was a call to “get out of” all false religion.
And speaking of Authority - Jesus said the following about the Church:
Matt 16:19, 18:18

WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven; and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
He said this to Peter whom you believe was the first pope.....there were no popes in original Christianity...nor were there priests or nuns or monasteries with vows of silence. Jesus commanded the opposite of what the Catholic Church taught. His disciples were to be preachers, a commission given to all, to spread the gospel or “good news”....something difficult if one was to remain silent.

What good news has ever come out of the Catholic Church? Where did the idea of a fiery hell originate?
It came from the pagan Greeks, not from the Bible....it was woven into metaphoric scripture as if God had nothing better to do than punish sinners in torturous flames forever....relishing their anguish. The church emulated this god by burning “heretics” alive.

The “Rock” upon which “the church” was built was Jesus, not Peter. So your whole foundation crumbles.
Peter was told to “feed” Jesus’ sheep, and his words are by no means those of a man elevated above his fellow apostles. Most of the apostles made no contribution to Scripture, but that did not mean that their ministry was not equally blessed by the one who sent them. They all had the same commission.
John 16:12-15
“I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now. But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to ALL truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to YOU the things that are coming.
He will glorify me, because HE WILL TAKE FROM WHAT IS MINE AND DECLARE IT TO YOU. Everything that the Father has is MINE; for this reason I told you that HE WILL TAKE FROM WHAT IS MINE AND DECLARE IT TO YOU.

Luke 10:16
Whoever listens to YOU listens to ME. Whoever rejects YOU rejects ME. And whoever rejects ME rejects the ONE who sent ME."
The “spirit of the truth” has always liberated Christ’s disciples from the shackles of false worship. Roman Catholicism bears no resemblance to the truth that Jesus taught...it is a complete departure from his truth, substituted with their own, under the auspices of a pope whose words could replace the words of Jesus and his apostles. Words of “sola scriptura”....the “word of God” that was to do exactly what Paul stated....

“All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17  so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.”

What more was needed? Not good enough for the Romans.....only the Roman Catholic Church departs from Scripture so completely. It has basically rewritten scripture to include whatever it wanted to include in its ritualistic nonsense and copying of the old form of worship practiced in Judaism.....with its grand temples and distinctive garments, along with the titles that elevated some above others......what did Jesus say about that?

Matt 15:7-9....
“You hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about you when he said: 8 ‘This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. 9  It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they teach commands of men as doctrines.’”

“But you, do not you be called Rabbi, for one is your Teacher, and all of you are brothers. 9  Moreover, do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father, the heavenly One. 10  Neither be called leaders, for your Leader is one, the Christ. 11  But the greatest one among you must be your minister.” (Matt 23:8-11)

These words apply also to your church. How many doctrines do you accept as truth that find no place whatsoever in God’s word.....what do you call the pope? “Holy Father”?.......how convenient that you reject “sola scriptura” because if you didn’t, nothing you are taught as truth, actually is....it is all invented or adopted by your church, so long ago that it is now set in concrete for those whose eyes are fully blinded to the truth. (2 Cor 4:3-4)

There is a reason why “few” will be found on “the road to life”.....if you hold a majority view, then you are on the wrong path. (Matt 7:13-14; 21-23)
 
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