No Escape : From Hell

[BreadOfLife]

I would say that engaging in the slaughter of people, is about as corrupt as a person - or organization - can be!
Especially heinous are religious organizations purporting to follow Christ, yet joining the world [John 15:19] & killing their spiritual brothers in its conflicts! -- John 13:34; John 15:12,17; Matthew 5:44.
Such activity is a BIG "spot from the world" [James 1:27], don't you think? Now, just what is the reputation of Catholicism in this regard? (And most of Protestantism, too?)

This is one very good way, IMO, in determining who are part of the "weeds".

Once again, these are the actions of evil individuals – and governments.
MOST of the “slaughtering” that you speak of was carried out by kingdoms and governments.

Heretics were seen as unruly and rebellious factions within a kingdom - and were dealt with harshly. I’m not excusing the actions of some Bishops and Popes. Many Catholics were butchered by Protestants as well.

 

[walter]

Have you ever wondered: Why would Jesus offer Everlasting life, if people already go on living after death in heaven or hell? John 3:36

 

[TazzJazz]

Hello, sir!

Yet in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, they both died. Lazarus is described as being "in Abraham's bosom." The rich man is in a place of torment:

“19 ¶ “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 “But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 “desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 “So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 “And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 “But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 ‘And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’ 27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 ‘for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 “Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 “And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 “But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”” (Lu 16:19-31 NKJV)

Four times torment or torments is mentioned.

According to Mark 4:34, and further established at Matthew 13:34, it was a parable, an illustration; it applied to the Pharisees.

Abraham isn't in Heaven (John 3:13); he is in the Grave (Sheol), from which he'll be resurrected. == John 5;28,29

Have a good day!

 

[TazzJazz]

Then why does every English Bible prove you're wrong?

You didn't deny being JW!

I see only deflection: you cant (or wont) answer my question.

We're done.

 

[Jack]

I see only deflection: you cant (or wont) answer my question.

We're done.

You sure sound JW!

 

[David Lamb]

Hello, sir!

According to Mark 4:34, and further established at Matthew 13:34, it was a parable, an illustration; it applied to the Pharisees.

Abraham isn't in Heaven (John 3:13); he is in the Grave (Sheol), from which he'll be resurrected. == John 5;28,29

Have a good day!

Where does it say that it applies only to the Pharisees?

John 5;28-29 say:

“28 “Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 “and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.” (Joh 5:28-29 NKJV)

It is the body that is in the grave. The soul of the believer goes straight to heaven. That is why Jesus said to the repentant robber:

“And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”” (Lu 23:43 NKJV)

And Paul wrote:

“For I am hard pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.” (Php 1:23 NKJV)

 

[Deleted member 26788]

It is the body that is in the grave. The soul of the believer goes straight to heaven. That is why Jesus said to the repentant robber:

“And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”” (Lu 23:43 NKJV)

Paradise is to be a earthly condition . what we can say about the repentant robber is he will have a resurrection ,meaning he will live again .to then live under kingdom rule of the earth . as Jesus is the king of the kingdom yes all will be with him ,with all the living .
right now the earth is not much of a Paradise .to become a Paradise its going to take some work ,tilling ,planting and as the rains will also be under the control of the kingdom, the Deserts will blossom.

 

[Jack]

Paradise is to be a earthly condition . what we can say about the repentant robber is he will have a resurrection ,meaning he will live again .to then live under kingdom rule of the earth . as Jesus is the king of the kingdom yes all will be with him ,with all the living .
right now the earth is not much of a Paradise .to become a Paradise its going to take some work ,tilling ,planting and as the rains will also be under the control of the kingdom, the Deserts will blossom.

Still don't know any Scripture? Or do you need permission from the GB?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yes...."everlasting destruction". Not torment.

Even Matthew 10:28 says "destroy soul and body".
And the Greek word is not Hades (which is translated hell); its Gehenna, another meaning entirely.

WRONG.

Rev. 14:11 – “Torture forever”
Βασανισμοσ – To torture
Αιον - Perpetuity of time, Eternity

Matthew 25:46 - “Eternal Punishment”
Αιονιοσ - without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will
Κολασισ - correction, punishment

What did Paul mean at Romans 6:7, "He that has died is freed from sin"?

Rom. 6:5-7
For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

We are set free form the consequences of sin. In our imperfect state, we will stumble from time to time – and that’s why James tells his borna-again readers to “Confess your sins” (James 5:16).

That’s also why John tells his readers, “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us" (1 John 1:8).

We are no longer slaves to sin because our hope is in Christ.
An unbeliever is a slave to sin because they have NO refuge in Christ. We DO . . .

 

[Deleted member 26788]

Rom. 6:5-7
For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

did you happen to notice you have to die to be set free from your sins ? do you understand what death is?

 

[BreadOfLife]

did you happen to notice you have to die to be set free from your sins ? do you understand what death is?

Paul is talking about being spiritually dead to sin - not physically dead:

Rom. 6:5-7
For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

 

[Deleted member 26788]

Paul is talking about being spiritually dead to sin - not physically dead:

Rom. 6:5-7
For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

“The wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord.”—Romans 6:23
nope he was not speaking of spiritually dead

 

[BreadOfLife]

“The wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord.”—Romans 6:23
nope he was not speaking of spiritually dead

Spiritually dead to SIN - not physically dead.
Read again:

“… our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with”.

Were YOU literally crucified?
NO – we were spiritually crucified with Christ, making us dead to SIN – not physically dead.

We’re still here – but we are no longer slaves to sin.

 

[David Lamb]

Paradise is to be a earthly condition . what we can say about the repentant robber is he will have a resurrection ,meaning he will live again .to then live under kingdom rule of the earth . as Jesus is the king of the kingdom yes all will be with him ,with all the living .
right now the earth is not much of a Paradise .to become a Paradise its going to take some work ,tilling ,planting and as the rains will also be under the control of the kingdom, the Deserts will blossom.

I do not agree that Jesus was telling the robber that he would be with Him on earth.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Jesus identifies His very SELF with His Church (Acts 9:4-5).
- Jesus is Truth itself (John 14:6).
- The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth (1 Tim. 3:15).
- The Church is the FULLNESS of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23).

Jesus is over ALL - and can’t be destroyed . . .

I never said that Jesus wasn’t safeguarding his church…..I simply stated that “Catholicism”, regardless of its national identity, wasn’t that church. If you think it is, you can think whatever you wish….it doesn’t alter the truth.…nor does it excuse the Catholic Church from its complete departure from Christ’s teachings….so many of them that find their origins outside of God’s word and strangely existing in pagan concepts such as the mother goddess worship that became attached to Mary. All her titles come from that source, not the Bible.

And that small percentage of corrupt people will be judged harshly.
But, never think that these crimes were institutionally mandated.

Just like the Pharisees…they are not a small percentage because the Pharisees poisoned the worship that Israel gave to God, bringing condemnation to all who stayed with them and by association supported the murder of Jesus Christ.
Just as Catholicism has poisoned the worship of God for all who follow its God dishonoring doctrines.

Whether or not the crimes committed by the Catholic clergy were institutionally mandated…they were institutionally tolerated, with offenders moved on to offend in different parishes. They largely went unpunished for decades.

Rev. 1:13, 4:4, 6:11, 7:9, 15:6, and 19:13-14 tell us about priests wearing special vestments in the heavenly liturgy. Here on earth, Catholic priests also wear liturgical vestments when celebrating Mass.

Since the priesthood that Christ is the head of is served in heaven, there are no priests mentioned in first century Christianity….there were no clergy because all maintained the same status…”brothers“.

Show me a Catholic Mass in the Bible…show me vestments worn on earth by any Christian minister. Your references are all seen in heaven.

There was nothing in Christianity that involved rank…they involved positions of service, no fancy titles or distinctive garments….no monks, no nuns, no monastic cloistered lives with vows of silence….that was all added much later but bore no resemblance to anything Christ or the first Christians did.

Then what do you do with Paul’s comment in 1 Cor. 4??

1 Cor. 4:15
“For I became your FATHER in Christ Jesus through the gospel".

It doesn’t mean generator OR male ancestor. He is referring to himself as a SPIRITUAL Father.
THIS is how Catholic priests are addressed.

You resist admitting that the “Holy Father” you serve on earth is a sinner just like everyone else. Who appointed anyone to be “the Vicar of Christ”? No matter who fills the role in that political hotbed, it is all very Catholic….not Christian...it’s a counterfeit….a poor substitute.

Anyway, YOUR original argument was that NOBODY is to be called, “Father”.
I just gave you FOUR Biblical verses that prove you WRONG . . .

I never said that no one could be called “father” on earth …I said no one could be called “Holy Father” as if they were a substitute for God or his Christ. We see the adulation that the pope gets from those of the Roman Catholic faith….yet I don’t see the Eastern Orthodox churches subject to the pope…..

Whereas, he DID warn of “weeds” and false prophets – he guaranteed that His Church would NEVER succumb to darkness (Matt. 16:18). Whether or NOT you perceive that Church to be the Catholic Church – you STILL made a heretical statement by claiming that the Church was “Destroyed”.

And his church was never destroyed because the wheat were always there, not part of the church and protesting about the conduct tat they knew was not Christian….like the indulgences….seriously how corrupt can you get! Wasn’t this the straw that broke Luther’s back?

Whatever the case - YOUR cult wasn’t invented until the 19th century.

Only at the time of Christ’s return would he appoint a “faithful and wise slave” to “feed“ his entire household their “food at the proper time” (Matt 24:45)…..we have been living in “the time of the end” (foretold by the prophet Daniel) for some decades….Christ’s return as judge is immanent. We are not the only ones who believe this….Are you ready?

 

[Aunty Jane]

First of all – there is no such thing as “The Roman Catholic Church”. It is “The Catholic Church”.

“Roman” or “Latin” simply refers to the Liturgical Rite – of which there are some twenty that comprise the ONE Catholic Church. There is also the Melkite Rite, the Maronite, Byzantine, Coptic, etc. These are largely cultural and are united doctrinally. So, when YOU say, “Roman Catholic” – you’re only referring to ONE of those Liturgical Rites.

Well, don’t look now, but Catholics have been killing one another in wars for centuries….in complete violation of the apostle John’s words….
” If anyone says, “I love God,” and yet is hating his brother, he is a liar. For the one who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. 21 And we have this commandment from him, that whoever loves God must also love his brother.”

Even to this day, those of the Ukrainian Orthodox church have been killing their brothers of the Russian Orthodox church, not to mention how many were killing their own brothers in the faith through two world wars…one church you say…..?

Any pagan holiday that was appropriated by Christianity has been LONG forgotten.
That was the whole point, Einstein – replacing paganism with Christianity.

That’s why there is a pagan obelisk in Vatican square. At the TOP of this structure, there is a CROSS that symbolizes the VICTORY of the cross over paganism.

You cannot Christianized paganism….you simply paganize the Christianity.
Paul’s admonition is not to do that…”no sharing of light with darkness”.

2 Cor 6:14-18…
”Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness? Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever? Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said,“ I will dwell in them and walk among them;And I will be their God, and they shall be My people. “Therefore, come out from their midst and be separate,” says the Lord. “And do not touch what is unclean; And I will welcome you.”

This seems contrary to what you describe. There is no “victory” if you merely change the name of the observance whilst retaining all the pagan trappings. God said…No sharing….”separate from them”….not “jump into bed with them”. “Do not touch what is unclean”.

It only takes ONE false prophecy to make a FALSE church.

Really? As I said, it wasn’t a false prophesy…it was one prophesy with a different time frame is all. We are still expecting its fulfillment….any time now.

As for the Apostles in Acts 1:6 – they didn’t falsely prophesy ANYTHING.
They merely asked Jesus a question:

Acts 1:6
Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”

These ones knew that the Kingdom of God was coming, as Jesus had told them…..they clearly did not know when, as they asked if it was going to happen there and then….here we are almost 2000 years later and we are still patiently waiting. It’s the very same prophesy. Jesus said that even he did not know the timing that God had placed in his own jurisdiction. (Matt 24:37-39) I believe he knows it now.

 

[walter]

Psalm 37:20
But the wicked shall perish; And the enemies of the LORD, Like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish. Into smoke they shall vanish away. New King James Version

Mark 9:47
47 And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out. It’s better to enter the Kingdom of God with only one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 ‘where the maggots never die and the fire never goes out.’ New Living Translation

Considering The Bible uses words in a figurative way, not always a literal way Thousands of times, which scripture of these two scriptures is written in a literal way, in your opinion?

 

[BreadOfLife]

I never said that Jesus wasn’t safeguarding his church…..I simply stated that “Catholicism”, regardless of its national identity, wasn’t that church.

And that was never my issue.

I couldn’t care less what you think of the Catholic Church.
I objected to YOUR statement that the Church was “Destroyed”.

You need to re-think that heresy . . .

Just like the Pharisees…they are not a small percentage because the Pharisees poisoned the worship that Israel gave to God, bringing condemnation to all who stayed with them and by association supported the murder of Jesus Christ.
Just as Catholicism has poisoned the worship of God for all who follow its God dishonoring doctrines.

Again – this is coming from a person who denies the deity of Christ and relegates Him as a created being whose brother is Satan. You really don’t have a lot of room to accuse others of “poisoned” doctrines . . .

Since the priesthood that Christ is the head of is served in heaven, there are no priests mentioned in first century Christianity….there were no clergy because all maintained the same status…”brothers“.

Time for yet another Bible Lesson . . .

Paul calls HIMSELF a “Priest”:
Rom.s 15:15-16
“But on some points I have written to you very boldly by way of reminder, because of the grace given me by God to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.”

The Greek word used for both “minister” and “priestly is ηιερουργεο (hee-er-oorg-eh'-o), which means “Priest.”

Show me a Catholic Mass in the Bible…show me vestments worn on earth by any Christian minister. Your references are all seen in heaven.

Ummm, WHERE do you think the imagery came from??

Acts 2:46-47
1 Cor. 10:16
Rev. 1:10
Rev. 1:12, 2:5
Rev. 1:13, 4:4, 6:11, 7:9, 15:6, 19:13-14
Rev. 2:5, 16, 21; 3:3; 16:11
Rev. 15:3-4
Rev. 4:4, 5:14; 11:16, 14:3, 19:4
Rev. 5:8, 6:9-11, 8:3-4
Rev. 4:8
Rev. 2:17
Rev. 5:8, 8:3-4
Rev. 6:9
Rev. 5
Rev. 8:3, 11:1, 14:18, 16:7
Rev. 14:4
Rev. 15:7, 16:1-4, 8, 10, 12, 17; 21:9
Rev. 17, 19:9
Rev. 19:1, 3, 4, 6
Rev. 5:14; 7:12; 19:4

There was nothing in Christianity that involved rank…they involved positions of service, no fancy titles or distinctive garments….no monks, no nuns, no monastic cloistered lives with vows of silence….that was all added much later but bore no resemblance to anything Christ or the first Christians did.

WRONG.

In Acts 1, the Disciples gathered to choose a successor for Judas.
Acts 1:10 says, “Let another take his office.”

The Greek word used here for “Office” is Episkopay, which means “Bishopric”.

There were Bishops (Acts 1:20), Priests/Presbyters (Acts 14:2, Titus 1:5), Deacons (Rom. 16:1, Tim. 3:8-13).

Another place you will see a listing of roles of hierarchy is in 1 Cor. 12:28-31.

You resist admitting that the “Holy Father” you serve on earth is a sinner just like everyone else.

And YOU are a liar. The Pope IS a sinner like everyone else.
The Church has never denied this.

I never said that no one could be called “father” on earth …I said no one could be called “Holy Father” as if they were a substitute for God or his Christ. We see the adulation that the pope gets from those of the Roman Catholic faith….

Can you show me where the BIBLE forbids this?

Do you even understand what “Holy” means?? It simply means “Set apart”. We are admonished in Scripture to ”BE holy” (Lev. 11:44, Eph. 1:4, 1 Pet. 1:15-16).

We are also told that we will NOT enter Heaven UNLESS we are holy:
Heb. 12:14:
"Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord."

yet I don’t see the Eastern Orthodox churches subject to the pope…..

That’s because they aren’t part of the Catholic Church, Einstein . . .

And his church was never destroyed because the wheat were always there, not part of the church and protesting about the conduct tat they knew was not Christian…

That’s NOT what YOU said.

YOU made the claim that Christianity was “Destroyed” by the Catholic Church.
Stop back-pedaling . . .

.like the indulgences….seriously how corrupt can you get! Wasn’t this the straw that broke Luther’s back?

The straw that broke Luther’s back was his own arrogance . . .

“If your Papist annoys you with the word ('alone'), tell him straightway, ‘Dr. Martin Luther will have it so’: Papist and ass are one and the same thing. Whoever will not have my translation, let him give it the go-by: the devil's thanks to him who censures it without my will and knowledge. Luther will have it so, and he is a doctor above all the doctors in Popedom.” (Amic. Discussion, 1, 127,'The Facts About Luther,' O'Hare, TAN Books, 1987, p. 201.)

Christ’s return as judge is immanent. We are not the only ones who believe this….Are you ready?

I’m ready for His return as judge – AND as the 2nd Person of the Triune Godhead.

Are YOU - or are you going to continue to deny Him to His face??

 

[Deleted member 26788]

I do not agree that Jesus was telling the robber that he would be with Him on earth.

did Jesus tell the man he would be in heaven or did he say Paradise ? Paradise is a earthly thing .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Well, don’t look now, but Catholics have been killing one another in wars for centuries….in complete violation of the apostle John’s words….

Even to this day, those of the Ukrainian Orthodox church have been killing their brothers of the Russian Orthodox church, not to mention how many were killing their own brothers in the faith through two world wars…one church you say…..?

The Russian and Ukrainian Orthodox are NOT part of the Catholic Church, Einstein . . .

You cannot Christianized paganism….you simply paganize the Christianity.
Paul’s admonition is not to do that…”no sharing of light with darkness”.
2 Cor 6:14-18…

Paul is talking about being unequally yoked – and NOT about replacing paganism with Christianity.

LEARN how to read God’s Word in its proper CONTEXT . . .

This seems contrary to what you describe. There is no “victory” if you merely change the name of the observance whilst retaining all the pagan trappings. God said…No sharing….”separate from them”….not “jump into bed with them”. “Do not touch what is unclean”.

It’s NOT just changing the name.
It is replacing the pagan festival with Christianity.

Your JW Cult replaced the very nature of God (Father, Soon, Holy Spirit) with the abomination that Jesus was a mere creature, whose brother is Satan.

Good luck with THAT one at your judgement . . .

Matt. 10:33
“.... but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.”

Really? As I said, it wasn’t a false prophesy…it was one prophesy with a different time frame is all. We are still expecting its fulfillment….any time now.

That is a FALSE PROPHECY - and there wasn’t just ONE.

I gave you a LIST of false prophecies from your FALSE JW “prophets”.

These ones knew that the Kingdom of God was coming, as Jesus had told them…..they clearly did not know when, as they asked if it was going to happen there and then….here we are almost 2000 years later and we are still patiently waiting. It’s the very same prophesy. Jesus said that even he did not know the timing that God had placed in his own jurisdiction. (Matt 24:37-39) I believe he knows it now.

And they were still confused and scared because the Holy Spirit had NOT yet descended upon them.
In any case – they did NOT make aa false prophecy. YOUR cult is rife with false prophecies.

YOUR leaders actually put DATES on their false prophecies and kept updating them.
Jesus NEVER did.