No Man has Two Natures of being both Good and Evil

[robert derrick]

David committed murder and adultery, and yet God said David was "a man after My own heart".

Before he sinned and after he confessed and repented.

No man can have a dual nature of righteousness and sinfulness at the same time.

"I know I am doing some bad things, but my heart is still good."

False.

The only way we can sin with the flesh, is if our spirit is unrighteous. And the only way we can do God's righteousness is from a pure heart and clean mind.

A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

 

[Jack]

Before he sinned and after he confessed and repented.

No man can have a dual nature of righteousness and sinfulness at the same time.

"I know I am doing some bad things, but my heart is still good."

False.

The only way we can sin with the flesh, is if our spirit is unrighteous. And the only way we can do God's righteousness is from a pure heart and clean mind.

A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

You never sin?

 

[robert derrick]

You never sin?

You never read what's written to understand it.

I don't do senseless arguments.

 

[Earburner]

So many things to discuss here, rd!

We are all born with a sin nature. When we are born-again through faith in Christ, that sin nature is not taken away.

Paul said in Rom. 6:12,

"Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof."

Paul is talking to believers! The key word here for our discussion is "reign."

The sin that could and will "reign" is the sin nature.

Then Paul said in vs. 14, "For sin shall not have dominion over you."

This is the sin nature that will reign over the believer if we try to live by Law, any Law, whether the Law of Christ or the Law of Moses or any Law you make for yourself.

Now let's finish vs. 14 "...for you are not under Law, but under Grace.?

Grace is ever flowing to the believer if faith is exercised in Christ. It is the Holy Spirit working though the total surrender of the believer to overcome sin that it will not have dominion over you, in other words, the sin nature will not "reign over you. It will lay dormant when you don't depend on self effort.

Those under Law were expected to try and keep the Law. This is how "the Law pointed to Christ," they were to see they couldn't keep the Law and turn to the sacrifice of an innocent animal (representing Christ) to find forgiveness of sins. But yet they were still bound to keeping the Law! The way out for them was the Sacrifice.

For us who are not under Law, we are to depend totally on the Holy Spirit to do the work, where it was just the opposite for those under the Law.

So many, many things to understand to understand the sin nature! This is just a part of it!

Amen-
Eph. 2
[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

 

[mailmandan]

You never sin?

1 John 1:8 - If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The dual nature of man is a spiritual soul and natural body.

Precision of language is required here. The "nature" of man is the essence of man. Without his essential properties, he would not exist or be what he is. There is no such thing as a "dual" nature because then he would be and not be what he is at the same time. Rather the Spiritual soul and the physical body are two aspects of man "as he is".

There is no such things as having a dual nature of good and evil, righteous and sinful at the same time.

Right, exactly. The Spiritual soul and the physical body are both aspects of man "as he is" and are true at the same time.

No double minded man is justified by Christ, through the false teaching of being righteous in the soul and serving God in spirit only, while being sinful in the flesh and bones while serving the devil bodily.

Good insight in my opinion.

For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

Religion of man is being part lovers of selves more than God and part lovers of God at times: the dual nature theology of having the divine nature within the soul and a sinful nature in the flesh, is a perversion of man created with a spiritual soul and a natural body.

Agree.

Natural man rejects God and the things of the spirit, and so is spiritually dead in unrighteousness.

Spiritual man believe in a God, either is spiritually alive in righteousness of the true God Jesus Christ, or is spiritual dead in unrighteousness decieved by another god, that is no God.

Agree, as long as we remember that the natural/spiritual distinction Paul makes is a contrast between a man who has been left to himself, on the one hand, and a man in whom the Holy Spirit is at work. Paul isn't suggesting that some people are spiritual by nature while others are not. We are all spiritual by nature. Paul insists that some are being led by the Holy Spirit while others are not.

Man cannot have dual spiritual natures at the same time, one spiritually righteous and unrighteous within the soul, or spiritually righteous within and spiritually sinful in mortal flesh.

The only nature of the physical body is mortality, and there is nothing spiritual about the mortal flesh: Righteousness and sin are spiritual in nature, because only spiritual beings created by Christ have choice to love pleasing God, or to love pleasing themselves.

I would add one more thing. Often times we hear the claim that we have a sin nature which is the reason and basis for our sin. This is not true, otherwise we would not be freewill agents. If sin was predicated on our nature, then we are acting according to our nature, not according to a freewill choice. And if we are acting according to our nature, we are not responsible for our actions.

For instance, bears attack campers because by nature bears are predators. For the bear, the decision to eat a camper is not a moral choice. The choice to eat or not eat a camper is predication on hunger and instinct, not on thoughtful deliberation When a bear gets hungery, he looks for food, and having found food in a tent, he eats what he finds there.

Anyway, I think you are on the right track.

 

[CadyandZoe]

It came from the result of disobeying God.

Was the sin nature imposed on Adam and Eve because of their sin, or did their sin reveal a sin nature that was already there?

They were innocent, not knowing what sin was. When they disobeyed God, they fell from that innocent state to the state of being aware of sin. That is called the state of living in sin, the state of a nature of sin.

Good observation in my opinion, but is innocence the same thing as perfection?

 

[CadyandZoe]

No one uses it as a excuse to sin who does that?

No, but they use it as an explanation for why sin exists.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The Lord Jesus was naturally totally sinless; there are plenty of Scriptures for this.

It is important to remember that "nature" describes who and what we are; it does not indicate the motive or reason for what we do. An aspect of Jesus is sinlessness, but he is sinless because he always chose to act righteously in his freedom. His nature describes who he is; it doesn't dictate who he is. We must be careful to avoid robbing Jesus of his freewill. Nature didn't dictate his actions; he did.

 

[Jack]

1 John 1:8 - If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Amen!

 

[Charlie24]

Was the sin nature imposed on Adam and Eve because of their sin, or did their sin reveal a sin nature that was already there?

Good observation in my opinion, but is innocence the same thing as perfection?

They were created in perfection without the knowledge of sin whatsoever. When they sinned their eyes were open to sin and the curse of sin became their nature. They chose to disobey God and we are all paying the price for that sin. But there is not a single one of us who would not have done the same thing, being that free will was given to man.

I have read from theologians that Adam and Eve were clothed with "the light of purity" while being naked and were not ashamed. When they sinned this light was taken and replaced with guilt of sin, the reason they hid from God. Somewhere in this process the sin nature took its course in man.

 

[CadyandZoe]

They were created in perfection without the knowledge of sin whatsoever. When they sinned their eyes were open to sin and the curse of sin became their nature. They chose to disobey God and we are all paying the price for that sin. But there is not a single one of us who would not have done the same thing, being that free will was given to man.

I have read from theologians that Adam and Eve were clothed with "the light of purity" while being naked and were not ashamed. When they sinned this light was taken and replaced with guilt of sin, the reason they hid from God. Somewhere in this process the sin nature took its course in man.

But how do you measure perfection? That's the question.
We are taught to think in terms of a "sin nature" as if to explain the propensity of all mankind to sin, excepting Adam and Eve who were created perfect. And so the question is, what is perfection?

The reason why many Christians say that Adam and Eve were created "perfect" is to avoid the inferred corollary, God created sin. According to this view, God would never create sin and for this reason, he would never give Adam and Eve a sin nature. Adam and Eve sinned, which resulted in the fall of man, who, without remedy, suffer the condemnation and the misery of a sin nature.

But this argument presumes that "nature" is the cause of our behavior. We sin because we have a sin nature.

Setting that aside for a moment, let's review another philosophical sticker in our shoe: the problem of evil. God would never create evil and so the question is, from where did evil come? The answer comes back, evil came from the free will choice of mankind. And why would God create man with freedom of the will? Because God wanted to create creatures who would love him freely. Genuine love requires freedom to not love instead.

So then, I think we can agree together that Adam and Eve were endowed by God with freedom of the will. When Adam and Eve sinned, they were acting under their own volition. They freely chose to sin. But what about the rest of mankind? If we say that the sin of mankind is required by a sin nature, then one of two things are the case. Either mankind is free to choose, as was Adam and Eve, or mankind serves a sin nature.

Do we have free will, or are we bound to a sin nature?

 

[Charlie24]

But how do you measure perfection? That's the question.
We are taught to think in terms of a "sin nature" as if to explain the propensity of all mankind to sin, excepting Adam and Eve who were created perfect. And so the question is, what is perfection?

The reason why many Christians say that Adam and Eve were created "perfect" is to avoid the inferred corollary, God created sin. According to this view, God would never create sin and for this reason, he would never give Adam and Eve a sin nature. Adam and Eve sinned, which resulted in the fall of man, who, without remedy, suffer the condemnation and the misery of a sin nature.

But this argument presumes that "nature" is the cause of our behavior. We sin because we have a sin nature.

Setting that aside for a moment, let's review another philosophical sticker in our shoe: the problem of evil. God would never create evil and so the question is, from where did evil come? The answer comes back, evil came from the free will choice of mankind. And why would God create man with freedom of the will? Because God wanted to create creatures who would love him freely. Genuine love requires freedom to not love instead.

So then, I think we can agree together that Adam and Eve were endowed by God with freedom of the will. When Adam and Eve sinned, they were acting under their own volition. They freely chose to sin. But what about the rest of mankind? If we say that the sin of mankind is required by a sin nature, then one of two things are the case. Either mankind is free to choose, as was Adam and Eve, or mankind serves a sin nature.

Do we have free will, or are we bound to a sin nature?

We are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners! We are born with the propensity to sin, it's our nature.

God did not create man with this sin nature, as some would believe. Some will say that it is not fair that we are forced to live in this fallen world because of the sin committed by Adam and Eve.

Rom. 5:12
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

The one thing that helps me to understand this is that God created Adam and Eve in His own image and likeness, but after the fall the Scripture says that Adam begat children in his own likeness, no longer the likeness of God. This is due to the sin that Adam and Eve committed. Genesis 5:1-3

Adam and Eve came from God, and all who are born by procreation are born of Adam. In other words, we come from the fallen nature of God's creation. It was man that caused this perfect creation to fall, and we are born from that corruption.

 

[CadyandZoe]

We are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners! We are born with the propensity to sin, it's our nature.

God did not create man with this sin nature, as some would believe. Some will say that it is not fair that we are forced to live in this fallen world because of the sin committed by Adam and Eve.

Rom. 5:12
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

The one thing that helps me to understand this is that God created Adam and Eve in His own image and likeness, but after the fall the Scripture says that Adam begat children in his own likeness, no longer the likeness of God. This is due to the sin that Adam and Eve committed. Genesis 5:1-3

Adam and Eve came from God, and all who are born by procreation are born of Adam. In other words, we come from the fallen nature of God's creation. It was man that caused this perfect creation to fall, and we are born from that corruption.

I agree that Adam was not subject to a fallen nature, he makes free will choices. But I also believe that we make free will choices too. Therefore, our propensity to sin is not explicable in terms of our nature. Our nature is to sin, but our nature isn't the cause of our sin. When we sin, we do wrong of our own volition.

Likewise, Adam sinned of his own free will. Therefore, God created Adam with the propensity to sin. Adam didn't create a fall. He was simply the prototypical human being.

 

[Charlie24]

I agree that Adam was not subject to a fallen nature, he makes free will choices. But I also believe that we make free will choices too. Therefore, our propensity to sin is not explicable in terms of our nature. Our nature is to sin, but our nature isn't the cause of our sin. When we sin, we do wrong of our own volition.

Likewise, Adam sinned of his own free will. Therefore, God created Adam with the propensity to sin. Adam didn't create a fall. He was simply the prototypical human being.

I can't agree that God created Adam with the propensity to sin, but rather, Adam was created with free will and could sin and in fact chose to sin. When they sinned, their eyes were opened to the fact of sin, their conscience state was changed when they realized they were naked.

They were at that moment separated from God through sin. It was not a sin of necessity (having a sin nature) but a sin of choice. That choice brought about the fall from one condition of creation to another condition.

Adam and Eve simply chose to believe Satan over God. Even after they had been warned of what would happen. This is not a created sin nature by God, it's pure unbelief, which is what free will is all about, and the cause that we have inherited this fallen state.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I can't agree that God created Adam with the propensity to sin, but rather, Adam was created with free will and could sin and in fact chose to sin. When they sinned, their eyes were opened to the fact of sin, their conscience state was changed when they realized they were naked.

They were at that moment separated from God through sin. It was not a sin of necessity (having a sin nature) but a sin of choice. That choice brought about the fall from one condition of creation to another condition.

Adam and Eve simply chose to believe Satan over God. Even after they had been warned of what would happen. This is not a created sin nature by God, it's pure unbelief, which is what free will is all about, and the cause that we have inherited this fallen state.

Okay, I agree that we can't know anything about Adam's propensities. I see no reason to believe or suspect that Adam was different than any of us.

 

[Charlie24]

Okay, I agree that we can't know anything about Adam's propensities. I see no reason to believe or suspect that Adam was different than any of us.

The difference is that Adam was created in the likeness of God, in righteousness and holiness, and we are not until we come to Christ.

Eph. 4:24
"And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness."

Adam fell from this position of righteousness and holiness, we are born without it and have to gain it.

Adam didn't have the knowledge of good and evil until after he sinned. That would make him innocent until he disobeyed God.

 

[face2face]

The dual nature of man is a spiritual soul and natural body.

No sorry, only natural body! - hence "let this mind be in you which was in Christ Jesus"

 

[robert derrick]

No sorry, only natural body! - hence "let this mind be in you which was in Christ Jesus"

So says the natural man, who wants the mind of a created god and false christ.