No scripture supports the Rapture

[keras]

Would you mind giving us your interpretation of these 2 passages?

1 Thessalonians 4
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

It is obvious from how Jesus descends from heaven, that this all happens at His Return. Those who are alive and remain will meet and greet Jesus in the air, then go with Him to Jerusalem. Jesus actually lands on the Mt of Olives. The Wedding supper of the Lamb will take place at this time, but where exactly, we are not told. This event is paralleled by Matthew 24:30-31
No-one goes to heaven here.

1 Corinthians 15
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

This prophecy is paralleled by Revelation 20:11-15; the Great White Throne judgement, when the Book of Life is opened. Those whose names are in the Book, will receive immortality, those not go into the Lake of fire.
Revelation 21:1-4 is clear: God will dwell with mankind and only then is there no more death.
No removal to heaven here, God and therefore heaven, come to earth. Like it was in Adams time.

 

[Job]

It is obvious from how Jesus descends from heaven, that this all happens at His Return. Those who are alive and remain will meet and greet Jesus in the air, then go with Him to Jerusalem. Jesus actually lands on the Mt of Olives. The Wedding supper of the Lamb will take place at this time, but where exactly, we are not told. This event is paralleled by Matthew 24:30-31
No-one goes to heaven here.

This prophecy is paralleled by Revelation 20:11-15; the Great White Throne judgement, when the Book of Life is opened. Those whose names are in the Book, will receive immortality, those not go into the Lake of fire.
Revelation 21:1-4 is clear: God will dwell with mankind and only then is there no more death.
No removal to heaven here, God and therefore heaven, come to earth. Like it was in Adams time.

These two passages are the same event. How do you get 2 different interpretations?

Just curious...

 

[buddyt]

ScottA



I disagree with your interpretation of 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 You have to read every word not just part. 15:22-For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. You must understand the second part of verse 23. Of course this is the event that shall take place at the Last Trump as written of in verse 52.

What I think confuses a lot of people are the verses in the Bible that say THE DEAD SHALL RISE FIRST. I personally think that could have been left out. We know the dead rise at the death of the flesh. It's written throughout the word.

 

[keras]

These two passages are the same event. How do you get 2 different interpretations?

Just curious...

No they aren't. That idea is just your opinion.
I explained that the Thess quote happens at Jesus' Return and the 1 Cor. quote happens at the end of the Millennium.
I suggest that you reconsider your beliefs, to conform with what the Bible actually says.

 

[Job]

No they aren't. That idea is just your opinion.

And your idea is just your opinion.

Give that some thought.

 

[Job]

I explained that the Thess quote happens at Jesus' Return and the 1 Cor. quote happens at the end of the Millennium.

I can accept your Thessalonians interpretation because it's actually right. The catching up occurs at the 2nd coming of Christ.

I don't agree with your Corinthians interpretation because it makes no sense. Here they are for comparison.

1 Corinthians 15
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Revelation 20
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.


I see nothing that would lead anyone to believe these two passages are connected in any way. The event in 1 Corinthians happens at the last trumpet. What is it the bible says happens at the last trumpet?

Ponder this and get back to me.
h

 

[ScottA]

Each in his own order means firstfruits first. The dead in Christ are resurrected first. Then the living are caught up at the 2nd coming of Christ.

Each in his own order. Dead in Christ first, then the living in Christ second.

Each in his own order...means, each in [his] order (singular) - not, each in [their] own order (as in the case of first fruits - plural). But the answer of [when] "each" is caught up is - just as it says: when they are "dead." In other words, not a some mass, future event...but when "each" "dies."

And the living shall not die...but have passed from death to life.

1 Corinthians 15:36
Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies.

 

[ScottA]

ScottA



I disagree with your interpretation of 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 You have to read every word not just part. 15:22-For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. You must understand the second part of verse 23. Of course this is the event that shall take place at the Last Trump as written of in verse 52.

What I think confuses a lot of people are the verses in the Bible that say THE DEAD SHALL RISE FIRST. I personally think that could have been left out. We know the dead rise at the death of the flesh. It's written throughout the word.

I understand the scripture, but I do not understand what you are saying you disagree with. You refer to the second part of verse 23 "afterward they that are Christ's at his coming." What is your point?

My point...is that "we who are alive" "pass from death to life" "at his coming"...meaning, when we hear his "knock at the door" and are "born again of the spirit of God" - rather than at the death of our physical bodies, where we do "not die, but live."

 

[Job]

But the answer of [when] "each" is caught up is - just as it says: when they are "dead." In other words, not a some mass, future event...but when "each" "dies."

If we're only caught up after we're dead, what happens to all the living christians when Christ returns? Everyone can't be dead because the passage below indicates living breathing christians present at the last trumpet.

1 Corinthians 15
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
o

 

[keras]

I see nothing that would lead anyone to believe these two passages are connected in any way. The event in 1 Corinthians happens at the last trumpet. What is it the bible says happens at the last trumpet?

Both 1 Cor 5:50-56 and Revelation 20:11-15 are about the final Judgement, where some will be made immortal and some go into the Lake of fire.
I Cor 15:52 says this change will happen at the last trumpet. The Great White Throne raising of all the dead, will be that very last trumpet of the 7000 years decreed for mankind.
I know you will have been taught that Paul's prophesy refers to a rapture to heaven. But the proof of when those found worthy will be changed into immortality is in Revelation 20:11-15 and Revelation 21:1-8, when the Book of Life is opened; NOT before.

 

[Job]

Both 1 Cor 5:50-56 and Revelation 20:11-15 are about the final Judgement, where some will be made immortal and some go into the Lake of fire.

1 Corinthians 15
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


It would appear that the only ones going to the lake of fire are taken from the group that are changed at the last trumpet. All the dead are raised incorruptible.
h

 

[Job]

the 7000 years decreed for mankind.

Where can I find this in scripture?

 

[buddyt]

ScottA
What I am saying is that at Christ's return as written in 1 Corinthians 15:52 all will be changed into Spirt Body's. Naturally to take on the Spirt Body you must abandon the Flesh Body. This event is for all who are here in the flesh at that time. All changed at one time not one at a time.

 

[buddyt]

keras
Am I understanding you to say that 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 happens at the end of the Lord's day (the Millennium) If so, I read this to happen at the Lord's return. At the start of the Millennium as it is written.

 

[ScottA]

If we're only caught up after we're dead, what happens to all the living christians when Christ returns? Everyone can't be dead because the passage below indicates living breathing christians present at the last trumpet.

1 Corinthians 15
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
o

First, it is important to separate what is said of the "dead" (in Christ) from what is said of the "living."

Also, that during that generation, Paul is addressing some of each group - some of the "dead in Christ", and some of the "living."

As for the "living", we are "changed" (and become "a new creation") "at His coming", which is during our lifetime ("each in his own order"). It is only then at the death of our flesh bodies, that we are "caught up."

 

[Job]

But from our worldly perspective, it is as Paul indicated: "each in his own order" (each in his own time).

I just remembered something. You changed to wording of that verse. By doing that you altered the meaning.

 

[ScottA]

I just remembered something. You changed to wording of that verse. By doing that you altered the meaning.

No, "one speaks in tongues, another interprets."

 

[ScottA]

ScottA
What I am saying is that at Christ's return as written in 1 Corinthians 15:52 all will be changed into Spirt Body's. Naturally to take on the Spirt Body you must abandon the Flesh Body. This event is for all who are here in the flesh at that time. All changed at one time not one at a time.

Buddyt, Please consider using the "Reply" feature...so I am alerted to your reply.

That is the misunderstanding of many. Yet, Paul explains that it is not a one time event, but instead it is "as with Adam." With Adam all died - but not as a one time event. So, too, is it with the resurrection: "each in his own order."

 

[keras]

keras
Am I understanding you to say that 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 happens at the end of the Lord's day (the Millennium) If so, I read this to happen at the Lord's return. At the start of the Millennium as it is written.

That maybe what you have been taught. It suits the 'rapture to heaven' theory, as it would be necessary to be changed before going there.
However, as the rapture idea is false; Jesus Himself refutes it- John 3:13, the idea of getting immortality before the GWT, is also wrong.

Be more careful of what you say: 1 Cor 15 does NOT say it will happen at Jesus' Return at all.

 

[Job]

No, "one speaks in tongues, another interprets."

Nobody was speaking in tongues. You altered the wording in that passage. You changed scripture to read the way you wanted it to read.

If you can't see the error in doing that...