No scripture supports the Rapture

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,760
5,607
113
www.CheeseburgersWithGod.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
That is the Lord's promise to all who believe in Him. Are you immortal already?
The actual fulfilment of that promise will occur after the Book of life is opened, at the GWT judgement.
1 Peter 1:3-5...our inheritance [eternal life] is reserved in heaven for you... because you put your faith in God, you are under the protection of His power...and your salvation will be revealed at the end of time.
Fairly conclusive, don't you think? Any teaching otherwise is false and unscriptural.
On an elementary level that would seem so.

But since you ask me a question (the answer of which is, Yes), I will also ask you a question: How much time exists after the end of your own time? I suspect that you are inclined to say you do not know. But I know. Just as in Adam all died, but each die in their own time...all who are in Christ leave the world in their own time, but enter the kingdom together. This is the end of which you have heard.

But before you judge me as "otherwise false", consider whether Christ was slain before the foundation of the world...or at the cross?

I have told you the truth.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Helen

keras

Writer of Bible study guides
Mar 18, 2014
1,191
52
48
82
New Zealand
www.logostelos.info
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
But before you judge me as "otherwise false", consider whether Christ was slain before the foundation of the world...or at the cross?
1 Peter 1:20 He [Jesus] was predestined before the foundation of the world....for the atonement of our sins.
Just like our promise of Eternal life; ready for all who endure till the end, Revelation 13:10, but not a reality until the Appointed time.
 

Copperhead

Well-Known Member
Jul 3, 2017
835
304
63
67
iowa
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Since time is a physical dimension, it is realistic to believe that, to God, there is no time in view. He knows the end from the beginning.

I picked up on a part of what Scott was saying and saw it this way. It is possible, since time is part of the created world, and is a physical dimension and time varies in relation to mass, velocity, etc, that someone who died 1000 years ago, someone who died last week, someone who dies next week, and those that are taken up at the time of the Lord, might all arrive in Heaven at the very same instant. Since time is subject to mass and gravity, and the soul is mass-less, time has no meaning. Probably why God declare of Himself that He inhabits eternity in Isa 57:15. Time has no meaning in that reality.

I do take somewhat of an exception that eternal life only comes later. Jesus said it this way......

John 5:24 (NKJV) “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Not that they will eventually have eternal life one day, but has actually passed from death to life in the present. Again, time has no meaning to God who lives in eternity. He is not subject to time. We are. And He sees the end from the beginning, so to Him the future is actually the present. As Albert Einstein so uniquely stated it.. the past, present, and future are nothing more than a stubbornly persistent illusion. Sure, we have to get rid of these human carcasses we live in, as.....

1 Corinthians 15:50 (NKJV) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

But to counter the claim that only those that endure to the end are saved, I contend that we have no part in determining salvation once we accept. Jesus paid the price in full for our salvation. I get the feeling that what is happening in this discussion is a confusion between eternal life and rewards for faithful service. But even if we do not remain faithful....

2 Timothy 2:13 (NKJV) If we are faithless,
He remains faithful;
He cannot deny Himself.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: bbyrd009

keras

Writer of Bible study guides
Mar 18, 2014
1,191
52
48
82
New Zealand
www.logostelos.info
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
I do take somewhat of an exception that eternal life only comes later. Jesus said it this way......
John 5:24 (NKJV) “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
John 5:25-30 In truth I tell you; the time is coming and now you know; that the dead will hear the Voice of the Son of Man....all the righteous will come to life and all who have done wrong will rise to judgement.
This prophecy plainly refers to the GWT after the Millennium. There will be no change to immortality for anyone until then. 1 Peter 1:5b...to be revealed at the end of time.
Before posting it pays to check the context!
 
Last edited:

buddyt

Active Member
May 23, 2017
119
44
28
80
oneonta al. USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I am a strong advocate of the Mosaic Law prescription that an issue can only be confirmed on the testimony of two witnesses. For me, that is the OT and the NT.

Check this one out:

Isaiah 26:19-21 (KJV) Thy dead men shall live,
together with my dead body shall they arise.
Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust:
for thy dew is as the dew of herbs,
and the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers,
and shut thy doors about thee:
hide thyself as it were for a little moment,
until the indignation be overpast.

21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place
to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity:
the earth also shall disclose her blood,
and shall no more cover her slain.

And then take a look at this:

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (KJV) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

"caught up" in Greek is harpazo, or in the Latin Vulgate, Rapturo, from which we get the transliterated word, Rapture.
You have quoted nothing about a Rapture.
I am a strong advocate of the Mosaic Law prescription that an issue can only be confirmed on the testimony of two witnesses. For me, that is the OT and the NT.

Check this one out:

Isaiah 26:19-21 (KJV) Thy dead men shall live,
together with my dead body shall they arise.
Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust:
for thy dew is as the dew of herbs,
and the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers,
and shut thy doors about thee:
hide thyself as it were for a little moment,
until the indignation be overpast.

21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place
to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity:
the earth also shall disclose her blood,
and shall no more cover her slain.

And then take a look at this:

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (KJV) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

"caught up" in Greek is harpazo, or in the Latin Vulgate, Rapturo, from which we get the transliterated word, Rapture.
I am a strong advocate of the Mosaic Law prescription that an issue can only be confirmed on the testimony of two witnesses. For me, that is the OT and the NT.

Check this one out:

Isaiah 26:19-21 (KJV) Thy dead men shall live,
together with my dead body shall they arise.
Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust:
for thy dew is as the dew of herbs,
and the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers,
and shut thy doors about thee:
hide thyself as it were for a little moment,
until the indignation be overpast.

21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place
to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity:
the earth also shall disclose her blood,
and shall no more cover her slain.

And then take a look at this:

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (KJV) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

"caught up" in Greek is harpazo, or in the Latin Vulgate, Rapturo, from which we get the transliterated word, Rapture.
Isa 26:19 does? Prove it. There is no reference to judgement except that the Lord is coming out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth. And those that are not destined for punishment are told to hide themselves in their chambers. You know, the chambers that Jesus said He was going to prepare for those that believe?

John 14:2-3 (NKJV) In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

You are not following principled scripture hermeneutics and are allegorizing scripture to the extreme. When the plain sense of scripture makes sense, then seek no other sense. That is Hermeneutics 101.

You are following a maxim in computer science.... if you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything.


And who are the holy (means set apart) people that will live in Israel after the Great Tribulation? Primarily Jews who went thru the tribulation and called out for the Lord to rescue them. As per Hosea. These verses clearly show that their rejection of the Messiah will cause Him to return to His place. For Him to return, He had to have left it. And He did when He came and was crucified. Israel's offense was that they denied Him.

Hosea 5:15 - 6:2 (KJV) I will go and return to my place,
till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face:
in their affliction they will seek me early.
1 Come, and let us return unto the Lord:
for he hath torn, and he will heal us;
he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days will he revive us:
in the third day he will raise us up,
and we shall live in his sight.

Match up this where it says He will return to His place and Isaiah 26 where He is coming out of His place.

And what is the Great Tribulation actually all about? Isaiah made that clear, it is to unleash God's wrath and punish the inhabitants of the earth. Yet, Paul says

1 Thessalonians 1:10 (NKJV) and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 (NKJV) For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
 

buddyt

Active Member
May 23, 2017
119
44
28
80
oneonta al. USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Copperhead
What you have quoted from Isaiah is referring to Christ's return as it is written. Nothing about a Rapture. What you refer to in 1Thessalonians is telling you where the dead are. And what will happen at Christ's return. At the last Trump as it is written. There is the First Advent and a Second Advent. No in between Advent. What does God say about the teaching's of a Rapture. Read Ezekiel 13:20 with understanding.
 

Copperhead

Well-Known Member
Jul 3, 2017
835
304
63
67
iowa
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Keras, one also has to compare it with the rest of scripture. You cannot make a doctrine out of one verse. There are actually two judgements... the GWT for unbelievers and the Judgement Seat of Christ for the believers where works are judged in terms of rewards to lack thereof.

Judgement seat for Believers... 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 and 2 Corinthians 5:10.

The GWT is Revelation 20:11-15.

So the passage I chose is apropos. Your assertion that John 5:25-30 is the same things as for the believers is not based on anything in the text. There is nothing that states the GWT and the Judgement Seat of Christ are the same event or occur at the same instance. There will be those that live thru the Tribulation period, and those that are deemed righteous will continue on, in human physical form, into the Millennial Kingdom to repopulate the earth under the Messiah's reign. There are myriads of passages in the OT that describe living in that millennial kingdom that will include life spans, deaths, sacrifices at the temple, etc, especially in Isaiah and Ezekiel, where the latter describes the future temple in meticulous detail and the activities going on there. There are references that those nations that do not come to the Temple on the Feast of Tabernacles will have rain withheld from their land. Who are going to be those people? Those that were saved already? Those that rejected Messiah prior to this Millennial Kingdom?

You are confusing two events, two conditions, two results with each other. You really need to balance your doctrine with the entire Bible. I realize that most folks try to base all their ideas primarily on the NT, but all Paul had when he taught the various churches doctrine, was the OT. You have to confirm any doctrine you wish to hold with the entirety of scripture, like the Bereans did and were commended for doing. The NT is in the OT, concealed. The OT is in the NT, revealed. That is why I stated in an earlier post that I hold to the Mosaic Law prescription that an issue can only be confirmed on the testimony of two witnesses. And those two witnesses are the OT and NT. I support no doctrine that is based on the NT alone. I take that back, only those like where Paul stated he shows us, what he calls, a mystery, a fact that had previously not been revealed in scripture.
 
Last edited:

Copperhead

Well-Known Member
Jul 3, 2017
835
304
63
67
iowa
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Copperhead
What you have quoted from Isaiah is referring to Christ's return as it is written. Nothing about a Rapture. What you refer to in 1Thessalonians is telling you where the dead are. And what will happen at Christ's return. At the last Trump as it is written. There is the First Advent and a Second Advent. No in between Advent. What does God say about the teaching's of a Rapture. Read Ezekiel 13:20 with understanding.

I read the entire chapter of Ezekiel 13. It has nothing to do with this discussion. To imply that it does is again allegorizing the scripture to extreme. This passage deals with the false prophets of Israel, clearly from the context. Those that lead Israel astray. Their judgement would come at the Day of the Lord. One of the reasons of the Great Tribulation is to cause national Israel to realize their sin in rejection of the Messiah, via listening to their false prophets, and call for His return. And He will rescue them, even from their false prophets as well.

You are doing the same thing as Keras. You are confusing separate events.
 
Last edited:

Copperhead

Well-Known Member
Jul 3, 2017
835
304
63
67
iowa
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You have quoted nothing about a Rapture.

Are you looking for the word "rapture" or the concept? The concept is all thru scripture. The word itself is not in the English Bible, but it is in the Latin Vulgate.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 (NKJV) Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

The term "caught up" in this verse is harpazo in Greek, and Rapturo in Latin. From which we get our transliterated word in english, Rapture.
 

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
i dunno, Rapture sounds very much to me like "Pillows," and "Soft Landings"...and even "charms" in a spiritual sense. Imo Ezekiel 13 is worth considering in that light, at least.
 

Copperhead

Well-Known Member
Jul 3, 2017
835
304
63
67
iowa
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I suppose. The rapture can indeed "seem" like one of the most preposterous ideas, yet still has basis in scripture. But many perceptions tend to be based on preconceived ideas. Vast claims made on half vast data (don't say that out loud too quickly.. LOL). I still believe that proper scriptural hermeneutics applies... when the plain sense, makes sense, then seek no other sense. It is dangerous territory when one spiritualizes the meaning of the text. We all interpret scripture, but one should rely on proven, tested methods of scripture interpretation as the base line.

And one must avoid the human failing that causes us to feel that we need to have a part in our salvation... keeping or some level of earning it, i.e. having to endure the Tribulation so we can be worthy of salvation. That has its basis in pride and it is dangerously close to insulting the character of God for us to think that we have any part, other than belief and acceptance, in our salvation. And believing that those purchased by Jesus and now in the body of Christ have to go thru the Great Tribulation exhibits that to some degree.

And if we do go thru the Great Tribulation, then it begs the question where do the people come from that go into the millennial kingdom after that period of time, as physical humans, to procreate, die, and even sin during that millennial kingdom? One concept we must also avoid, is confusing the millennial kingdom with heaven. If the Millennial Kingdom is perfect, then why is it only lasting 1000 years and there is a mass rebellion of mankind at the end of it when Satan is released? If it was perfect, it should last forever, wouldn't you think?

The kingdom parables that Jesus gave us shed light on what the Millennial Kingdom is and how it is to be perceived. We can parse those if you want. I am game for that.
 
Last edited:

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
And if we do go thru the Great Tribulation, then it begs the question where do the people come from that go into the millennial kingdom after that period of time, as physical humans, to procreate, die, and even sin during that millennial kingdom?
one would think that the question would be begged, i agree, and yet people persist in applying a literal interpretation to this, and await "Life, more abundantly," supposing that it might begin after they die.
If the Millennial Kingdom is perfect, then why is it only lasting 1000 years and there is a mass rebellion of mankind at the end of it when Satan is released?
same question begged imo, that a literal interpretation simply cannot answer, except with the employment of magic; as those who seem determined to ignore that they will be judged for their works apparently like to believe.

If we are called to seek our own salvation, then imo we pretty obviously have a part in our salvation. That we are advised to change our minds is not an empty gesture i don't think. So, a pox on believers, more or less; God can make believers out of rocks.
 

Copperhead

Well-Known Member
Jul 3, 2017
835
304
63
67
iowa
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
We do have a part, but only the part that involves acknowledgement of who Jesus is, then trust and acceptance. Clearly, true belief is more than just "believing". It is acceptance of the redemptive work of the Messiah to their own life. Then the HS places His seal on us that we are now Messiah's property. Anything other than that trust and acceptance is based in works. And Paul made it expressly clear that salvation is of faith, not works, lest anyone boast. Boasting is pride, which is sin.

And one might look at this whole idea of the pre-trip rapture being a fallacy in a slightly different ways.

For the post trib position, it would mean this.... "I will save you, you belong to me as my bride, but first I will beat the snot out of you and then we will go have dinner". So that one doesn't seem to fit Jesus' character very well. That flies in the face of "comfort one another with these words" (1 Thessalonians 4:17-18). And it also violates that no man knows the day or the hour.

A mid trib position (and even the Pre-Wrath version to some extent), though closer to realistic, fails to observe that no man knows the day or the hour. The period of the "Time of Jacob's Trouble" (Jeremiah 30:7), or Great Tribulation, starts when the false messiah establishes a covenant of protection with Israel. And then he breaks it at the mid point of 7 years and establishes himself in the temple as the true messiah (Daniel 9:27). Anyone at that time should know when that covenant begins, so would then know when the mid trib point is reached. That violates "no man knows the day or the hour" (Matthew 24:36 and Mark 13:32).

Amillennial, or denial of the literal millennium, is so far out in left field that it is almost tantamount to heresy, and quite probably is. It impugns the very character of God... that He doesn't mean what He says or says what He means. It is essentially saying that God was incompetent in what he laid out in hundreds of passages of the OT. One has to spiritualize or allegorize the scripture to extremes. When we get doing that, then no one can really ascertain the true meaning of scripture and it leads to all sorts of doctrinal problems. A close cousin of the Ammillennial position is Pretorism, that all of the prophecy of Revelation, Matthew, etc all was accomplished by 70 AD. Again, that is spiritualizing or allegorizing to extremes. But is comports well with that maxim in the computer science field... if you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything.

That pretty much leaves a pre-trib position as one that aligns more with scripture and with the character of God. Even then, there is no way we can fully comprehend all that is going to happen. Isaiah 55:8-9 says explicitly that God's ways are higher than ours and His thoughts are higher than our thoughts. We get all arrogant in thinking we have all the truth and everything figured out.

Prophecy is pattern, as Paul was taught in the School of Gamaliel, still recognized as one of the most prominent teaching schools of rabbinic Judaism (Acts 22:3). and we can glean insight from God's previous patterns. And before you diss the idea of Gamaliel being just a rabbi, remember that what Jesus said in Matthew 22:37-40 was identical, almost a verbatim quote, to what Gamaliel told a student when asked to summarize the entire law while standing on one foot. Noah and his family entered the ark 7 days prior the rains starting. Lot had to be removed from Sodom before the angels could destroy the city and they told him that. And there are other patterns we can glean. So the idea that those who God calls righteous, those who have been bought and paid for by Jesus, will escape the wrath of God and the Great Tribulation is not as far fetched as some might suppose.
 
Last edited:

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
Amillennial, or denial of the literal millennium, is so far out in left field that it is almost tantamount to heresy, and quite probably is. It impugns the very character of God... that He doesn't mean what He says or says what He means. It is essentially saying that God was incompetent in what he laid out in hundreds of passages of the OT. One has to spiritualize or allegorize the scripture to extremes.
well, i disagree, as it seems to me that Scripture was written so as to stand the test of time, and also so that people would "see and not see," which it seems to me a literal/logical interpretation accomplishes quite fabulously.
 

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
Lot had to be removed from Sodom before the angels could destroy the city
or rather, Lot had to remove himself from the city, and chose to do so, as i note no automatic removal such as you intimate. We are already advised to leave the world, and be in it and yet not of it, so i guess there is always another perspective to consider.

if one thinks they are reading history, rather than spiritual guidance, then imo it is just best to let them i guess.
 

Copperhead

Well-Known Member
Jul 3, 2017
835
304
63
67
iowa
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yes, indeed, the scriptures were written to stand the test of time. But that doesn't have anything to do with interpretation of those scriptures standing the test of time. Already, before the first century ended, the church was already starting to mess things up. Paul's letters show that and especially the letters to the 7 churches in Revelation.

You are free to disagree. Everyone has that privilege. Just make sure that your views on scripture stand the test of sound biblical hermeneutics.

As for Lot's situation...

Genesis 19:15 (NKJV) When the morning dawned, the angels urged Lot to hurry, saying, “Arise, take your wife and your two daughters who are here, lest you be consumed in the punishment of the city.”

While Lot did choose to leave, it was clearly at the urging and pushing of the angels that had come to destroy the place.

But it was the angels themselves that took Lot out of the city....

Genesis 19:16 (NKJV) And while he lingered, the men took hold of his hand, his wife's hand, and the hands of his two daughters, the Lord being merciful to him, and they brought him out and set him outside the city.

So they had to remove Lot before they could destroy the city because the Lord was merciful to him.
 
Last edited:

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
You are free to disagree. Everyone has that privilege. Just make sure that your views on scripture stand the test of sound biblical hermeneutics.
well, fwiw, if your hermans have led you to believe that "life, more abundantly" = "party in the sky after i'm dead, or get magically whisked away" then i am not interested.
 

Copperhead

Well-Known Member
Jul 3, 2017
835
304
63
67
iowa
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Why is it, when folks start to weaken in their argument, that they will ridicule others and become melodramatic in expressing themselves, thinking they can intimidate someone into their way of thinking. I think your problems are much deeper than some doctrinal position. You are more than welcome to disagree. I disagree with the other positions, but I will not make a conscious effort to demean others in the process. All theological discussions should be conducted without malice. Sure, firmly state one's position as best they can, point out where someone may be in error, but out of respect.
 
Last edited:

Dcopymope

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2016
2,650
800
113
36
Motor City
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Why is it, when folks start to weaken in their argument, that they will ridicule others and become melodramatic in expressing themselves, thinking they can intimidate someone into their way of thinking. I think your problems are much deeper than some doctrinal position. You are more than welcome to disagree. I disagree with the other positions, but I will not make a conscious effort to demean others in the process. All theological discussions should be conducted without malice. Sure, firmly state one's position as best they can, point out where someone may be in error, but out of respect.

The pride of life is the reason for the girly man attitudes, simple.
 

Wormwood

Chaps
Apr 9, 2013
2,346
332
83
47
California
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I suppose. The rapture can indeed "seem" like one of the most preposterous ideas, yet still has basis in scripture. But many perceptions tend to be based on preconceived ideas. Vast claims made on half vast data (don't say that out loud too quickly.. LOL). I still believe that proper scriptural hermeneutics applies... when the plain sense, makes sense, then seek no other sense. It is dangerous territory when one spiritualizes the meaning of the text. We all interpret scripture, but one should rely on proven, tested methods of scripture interpretation as the base line.

And one must avoid the human failing that causes us to feel that we need to have a part in our salvation... keeping or some level of earning it, i.e. having to endure the Tribulation so we can be worthy of salvation. That has its basis in pride and it is dangerously close to insulting the character of God for us to think that we have any part, other than belief and acceptance, in our salvation. And believing that those purchased by Jesus and now in the body of Christ have to go thru the Great Tribulation exhibits that to some degree.

And if we do go thru the Great Tribulation, then it begs the question where do the people come from that go into the millennial kingdom after that period of time, as physical humans, to procreate, die, and even sin during that millennial kingdom? One concept we must also avoid, is confusing the millennial kingdom with heaven. If the Millennial Kingdom is perfect, then why is it only lasting 1000 years and there is a mass rebellion of mankind at the end of it when Satan is released? If it was perfect, it should last forever, wouldn't you think?

The kingdom parables that Jesus gave us shed light on what the Millennial Kingdom is and how it is to be perceived. We can parse those if you want. I am game for that.

Copperhead,

I appreciate your approach to debate on these issues. However, I have to disagree with your hermeneutics.

1. What do you mean when you talk about someone "spiritualizing" the meaning of Scripture? Don't we see this continually throughout the NT? Doesn't Paul refer to Jesus as the rock in the desert? Doesn't Jesus refer to himself as "manna" from heaven that we are to "eat?" Doesn't Matthew refer to Jesus as the Son that God called out of Egypt? I mean, clearly if we look at that passage in its original context it is clearly talking about literal Israel. Moreover, specifically in Revelation, don't we see the churches symbolized as lamp stands, the stars as angels and a sword protruding out of Jesus' mouth? Surely we shouldn't interpret these things as "literal." So I guess the question is how do you determine when "spiritualizing" is inappropriate. I would say that Revelation is loaded with symbolic and spiritual meanings. In fact, John indicates that the visions given to him were shown in symbols (at least that is what the Greek indicates in Rev. 1:1). I agree that we shouldn't just grab random meanings, but certainly the NT authors do not always seek the most "literal" interpretation of the OT, nor does Revelation' genre lend itself to the most "literal" interpretation. Otherwise, we should assume Jesus has 7 literal eyes and 7 literal horns and looks like both a lion and a slain lamb in physical appearance.

2. I guess I would question what you mean by "enduring" as a means of "earning" salvation. It seems to me that Jesus, himself, in Revelation implies that one must endure if they are to be saved. See Rev. 2:5, 10, 16, 26; 3:3, 11, etc. Personally, I feel it is a theological assumption on your part that "enduring" is a "work." I don't believe faithfulness in the Scriptures is ever viewed as a "work." Rather, faith is contrasted with works. Those who remain faithful are basing their salvation on their confidence in Jesus, not themselves. Revelation teaches clearly (in my view) that enduring faithfulness is essential because faith, biblically, is never merely a momentary cognitive assent to facts.

3. I am not sure exactly what you believe about Revelation, but in my mind, the "Great Tribulation" is not a future event, nor is the "millennial kingdom." As for the rapture (which is the point of this forum), I see no evidence for it (at least not how it is defined as Dispensationalists) anywhere in Scripture. I'd be interested to hear your hermeneutical approach to justifying such a doctrine, if indeed you hold to it.

I appreciate your contribution on here and look forward to the dialogue.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bbyrd009