Not by works - but by faith

[RogerDC]

Now the present pope is hand in glove with Islam, saying that we are all brothers and worship the same God, and yet in Muslim nations atrocities are being committed on Christians. So, the "true" church is going to be a merger of Roman Catholicism and Islam? If the pope is saying that Muslims worship the same God, he must see them as "our brothers in Christ" and therefore a true church the same as his own! So I wonder what interpretation of the Bible does he have that says that Islam is "our brothers under God"?

If what you describe is true, it is the Pope’s personal opinion of Islam - Catholics are obliged to accept and believe only Catholic doctrine, not a Pope’s personal opinion.

 

[RogerDC]

Was it the Holy Spirit who told the popes to keep the approved Bible in Latin and the Mass performed in Latin, so ordinary people wouldn't understand it

Your ignorance is never-ending. FYI, when the Mass was said in Latin, every Catholic had access to a written translation of the liturgy into their own language, so every Catholic could understand exactly what was being said.

and be able to check whether the doctrines and ceremonies were actually Biblical?

Check whether they are “actually Biblical”? That would be putting the cart before the horse - the Bible came from the Church, not the other way around. The Church's bishops decide what is “actually Biblical", because the Church is the "fullness" of Christ (Eph 1:22-23) and the "pillar and foundation of the truth" (1Tim 3:15).

 

[Paul Christensen]

Meanwhile, back in the real world … Ask a thousand (non-Catholic) pastors for their interpretation of the NT, and you will get a thousand different answers. That’s why there are thousands of different (non-Catholic) churches and denominations.

So, have you done that - asked a thousand Protestant pastors for their interpretation of the NT? If so, I would love to see your results!

 

[Paul Christensen]

Your ignorance is never-ending. FYI, when the Mass was said in Latin, every Catholic had access to a written translation of the liturgy into their own language, so every Catholic could understand exactly what was being said.Check whether they are “actually Biblical”? That would be putting the cart before the horse - the Bible came from the Church, not the other way around. The Church's bishops decide what is “actually Biblical", because the Church is the "fullness" of Christ (Eph 1:22-23) and the "pillar and foundation of the truth" (1Tim 3:15).

What!!
The Hebrew Old Testament came from the Catholic church?? Oh dear!!
The canon of the Old Testament was already settled before the Christian church came into being. Jesus and the Apostles used the Septuagint as the authority for the preaching of the gospel. The canon of the New Testament was basically decided in the second century, long before the church became a Roman Catholic church under the authority of a pope.

 

[Paul Christensen]

If what you describe is true, it is the Pope’s personal opinion of Islam - Catholics are obliged to accept and believe only Catholic doctrine, not a Pope’s personal opinion.

Come on! Where Pope Francis goes, everyone in the Catholic church goes!

 

[RogerDC]

That is the point....I think you know that....a discussion. A discussion about the abundance of beliefs when salvation is short and sweet. I do intent to start a thread. Thank you

Start a thread, not a book

 

[Grailhunter]

Start a thread, not a book

lol

 

[FollowHim]

Meanwhile, back in the real world … Ask a thousand (non-Catholic) pastors for their interpretation of the NT, and you will get a thousand different answers. That’s why there are thousands of different (non-Catholic) churches and denominations.

Sadly purgatory and masses for the dead are the tip of the ice berg of heresy. Buying heaven by giving to the church is the oldest prosperity gospel there is. But the image of a uniform faith, works to give a sense of oneness, while actually allowing many positions under its roof.
Just take the monastic wars and councils to attempt to resolve them and failing.

Is it more absurd to deny the issues or claim there is one catholicism?
Whatever Mary is, many regard her as part of the trinity. I visited India, and the difference between Hinduism and adoration of statues of saints was impossible to distinguish.
God bless you.

 

[FollowHim]

Meanwhile, back in the real world … Ask a thousand (non-Catholic) pastors for their interpretation of the NT, and you will get a thousand different answers. That’s why there are thousands of different (non-Catholic) churches and denominations.

Sadly for over a thousand years to share my faith and open heart in a Catholic country would be a death sentence from the authorities.

That says enough for me. How can following Jesus be worthy of death from the only true church?

Mixing church and state made bishops powerful people without oversight. No wonder corruption and chaos ruled.

 

[RogerDC]

This is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit and His relationship with God's children....be very careful.

Huh? If I don’t believe everyone who says God talks to them, that is “blasphemy”? I don’t think so. Only a naïve fool would believe everyone who says God is talking to them. I wish I had a dollar for every time a psychiatrist had to treat a loon who claimed God talks to him!

He speaks to us as it is written in scripture and to say it is mental illness is to deny His Truth.

Did I say everyone who claims God talks to them is mentally ill? No, I did not - you’ve twisted what I said and misrepresented me.

 

[RogerDC]

Salvation…what is the process?

Salvation … what is the process? There are three simple verses in the Bible that describe the formula for salvation:

1. “those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus” (Rev 12:17, repeated in Rev 14:12).
2. “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” (James 2:24). By “works”, James means keeping the commandments, which includes repentance.
3. “If you love me, you will keep my commandments” (John 14:15).

 

[RogerDC]

So, have you done that - asked a thousand Protestant pastors for their interpretation of the NT? If so, I would love to see your results!

The proof is in the pudding - there are thousands of different churches, sects and denominations because they don’t share the same doctrines.

 

[RogerDC]

What!!
The Hebrew Old Testament came from the Catholic church?? Oh dear!

How would you know what books belong in the OT if they weren’t in the Bible? The Jews have different versions of what they consider to be the “Sacred Writings”. How would you know which version is correct? It was the Catholic Church that decided what books should be included in the OT.

The canon of the Old Testament was already settled before the Christian church came into being. Jesus and the Apostles used the Septuagint as the authority for the preaching of the gospel.

About 75% of the OT quotes used in the NT were taken from the Septuagint, which means the Septuagint was not considered by all the NT writers to be the true OT.

The canon of the New Testament was basically decided in the second century, long before the church became a Roman Catholic church under the authority of a pope

The canon of the NT was not decided until at least the fourth century.

The second-century Church that you refer to was the Catholic Church, the same Catholic Church that began on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2) and the same Catholic Church that exists today.

The canon of the New Testament was basically decided in the second century

By whom? Do you have any idea who made that decision? No, you don’t - you cannot name who was responsible or produce anything in the way of historical evidence, so you’re just childishly parroting some fairy tale that you read somewhere.

 

[Grailhunter]

Salvation … what is the process? There are three simple verses in the Bible that describe the formula for salvation:

1. “those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus” (Rev 12:17, repeated in Rev 14:12).
2. “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” (James 2:24). By “works”, James means keeping the commandments, which includes repentance.
3. “If you love me, you will keep my commandments” (John 14:15).

1. Define the "commandments of God" and the Commandments that Christ was referring to.
2 I will argue that the Paul was talking about the works of the Law, that was not required and James was presenting the need to applying Christian works as helping one another.

 

[RogerDC]

8: If a believer dies before being water baptized, what happens?

God's decision, but we know the "good thief" on the cross next to Jesus was saved without baptism.

What happens to those millions of pagans who lived before Jesus walked the earth and had never heard of the God of the Bible or His Son and were never baptized? What about the millions of pagans who have lived since Jesus and have never had the chance to hear the word of God and never baptized? Will they all be condemned to Hell, simply for being unlucky enough to be born in the wrong time or place?

 

[Paul Christensen]

The proof is in the pudding - there are thousands of different churches, sects and denominations because they don’t share the same doctrines.

The big question I want to ask you is where will you go if you get the coronavirus and die of it?

 

[Grailhunter]

God's decision, but we know the "good thief" on the cross next to Jesus was saved without baptism.

We know he went to paradise. There is a debate exactly as to what was meant by that. Nothing you and I are going to resolve. Still, belief and faith are a powerful thing. Christ knows the heart...so He will be the judge. I am not saying that a person that believes will not go to heaven if he or she dies before baptism.

 

[RogerDC]

Further information on repentance
Definition of the English word; Repent
Merriam-Webster
intransitive verb
1: to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life
2a: to feel regret or contrition
b: to change one's mind
transitive verb
1: to cause to feel regret or contrition
2: to feel sorrow, regret, or contrition for

Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance gives Christian definitions for repent and repentance.
#3340
metanoeó: to change one's mind or purpose
Original Word: μετανοέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: metanoeó
Phonetic Spelling: (met-an-o-eh'-o)
Definition: to change one's mind or purpose
Usage: I repent, change my mind, change the inner man (particularly with reference to acceptance of the will of God), repent.

Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance
#3341
metanoia: change of mind, repentance
Original Word: μετάνοια
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: metanoia
Phonetic Spelling: (met-an'-oy-ah)
Definition: change of mind, repentance
Usage: repentance, a change of mind, change in the inner man.

Here is a common Christian statement regarding repentance:
Repentance, metanoia in the Greek, means a change of mind. In the New Testament repentance is always a change of mind which results in a change of life. God calls us, through the moral law and His offer of grace in Christ, to change our minds about our self-centered ways of living, to stop going our own way and follow Christ instead. Repentance thus involves a 180 degree turn of morale character.

The problem with the above statement is that it is not accurate….

Anyone that thinks that studying the details of the Bible is an easy thing…
well this is a good example that they are wrong. The Webster Dictionary is a secular reference, but pulls Christian beliefs into its definition. Strong’s as a whole is very accurate, but in some instances it is guilty of what they call “Christianizing”. The definitions above are Old English-Old French Christian definitions of a Pagan word.

Repent (μετανοέω) and Repentance (μετάνοια) are Pagan Greek words ….and as most know the New Testament was written mostly in Greek. These Greek words are not religious and they are not Christian. The Greek language had been around awhile before Christ’s ministry and Christ and the Apostle knew these words and used them in their context.

The Greek words do not have anything to do with change, turn around, or 180 degrees of change of moral conduct. But there is a meaning or sense of regret and sorrow for doing wrong or wronging someone. And the meaning of the Greek words are properly represented in the Bible because, those writing the scriptures understood the Greek words and used them in context.

Greek meaning of the word repeat: A realization and an admission that you have done wrong or wronged someone, and want to make it right….Repent is in the mind…not an action…a desire not to do wrong again. And it is in this context the scriptures use the word…in that you don’t want to do wrong again. The people that were converting to Christianity in the first century were not theologians. They simply understood that what they were doing before was not right and they wanted to learn through Christianity, the right way…. “The Way.”

As applied in the scriptures, it is a condition required in order to receive forgiveness. But on the other hand, it is a sure thing. Repent and be baptized and your sins will be forgiven. This is a simple thing, several times baptism is referred to as the baptism for the remission of sins.

In biblical era, they were not listing their past sins. Repentance simply was the realization and belief that in their past life they had done wrong and in their new life as a Christian, they intended to conform to Christian morales. But salvation was not contingent on perfection.

For reference a few scriptures on repentance;

Acts 11:18 NASB
When they heard these things, they were silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then God has granted to the Gentiles also repentance unto life.
Acts 11:18 KJV
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
Context: Repentance here means forgiveness unto life or that leads to life. It does not mean repenting your whole life.
Mark 1:4 KJV
John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
Context: …preach the baptism of forgiveness for the canceling / removal of sins. So why didn’t they just say forgiveness? Because in loose terms, the realization and admission of wrong occurs before baptism and repentance is the forgiveness of those sins. I say “loose” because a new Christian might not know or remember all the things he or she did was wrong at the time of Baptism.

Luke 15:7 NASB
I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance….
Context: …over one sinner that realizes they did wrong than the ninety-nine righteous persons who need no forgiveness.

Luke 17:3 KJV
Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.
Context: If he repents, it is correct to expect forgiveness.

Luke 24:46-47 NASB
And said unto them, Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer, and rise again from the dead the third day, and that repentance for forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
Context: And the forgiveness and the canceling of the charges of sins should be preached.

Act 26:20 NASB
but kept declaring both to those of Damascus first, and also at Jerusalem and then throughout all the region of Judea, and even to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance.
Note: I suspect verses like this is how the Christian definition came to include the word turn. Context: should realize and admit they did wrong, turn to God and perform the deeds appropriate for those that have been forgiven.

Acts 2:38 KJV
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Context: Admit your wrong doing, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the removal of sins… There are several of these scriptures.

Repentance means more than simply acknowledging that some of your behaviour is wrong and sinful in the eyes of God. The idea is to please God by ceasing to do what is wrong and sinful. It makes no sense to learn that what you are doing is sinful and displeasing to God, but then CONTINUE TO DO what is sinful and displeasing to God!

Jesus said, “If you love me, you will keep my commandments” (John 14:15) - keeping His commandments means not sinning, and not sinning includes repentance. If you continue to sin, you have not repented.

 

[Paul Christensen]

How would you know what books belong in the OT if they weren’t in the Bible? The Jews have different versions of what they consider to be the “Sacred Writings”. How would you know which version is correct? It was the Catholic Church that decided what books should be included in the OT.About 75% of the OT quotes used in the NT were taken from the Septuagint, which means the Septuagint was not considered by all the NT writers to be the true OT.The canon of the NT was not decided until at least the fourth century.

The second-century Church that you refer to was the Catholic Church, the same Catholic Church that began on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2) and the same Catholic Church that exists today.By whom? Do you have any idea who made that decision? No, you don’t - you cannot name who was responsible or produce anything in the way of historical evidence, so you’re just childishly parroting some fairy tale that you read somewhere.

Seeing that conditions around the world have dramatically changed and that anyone who contracts the coronavirus could die from it, then having debates about relatively unessential issues wouldn't cause an unsaved person to avoid judgment and hell if he died. This is why I am stepping away from our debate and concentrating on reminding people to make sure that they are genuinely converted to Christ so that they will going to the right place in the event of their death.

So, my first question to you is, are you a good person?

 

[Dcopymope]

God's decision, but we know the "good thief" on the cross next to Jesus was saved without baptism.

What happens to those millions of pagans who lived before Jesus walked the earth and had never heard of the God of the Bible or His Son and were never baptized? What about the millions of pagans who have lived since Jesus and have never had the chance to hear the word of God and never baptized? Will they all be condemned to Hell, simply for being unlucky enough to be born in the wrong time or place?

No, but unbelievers who hear the gospel yet rejects it will be the unluckiest of them all. It will be more tolerable for the sinner of Sodom on judgement day than it will be for them according to Jesus. Those who reject the gospel will be without excuse, and will most certainly get drop kicked into the lake of fire. These are the particular unbelievers John primarily refers to in revelation.

(Revelation 21:7-8) "He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. {8} But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."