Olivet Discourse revisited

[Ronald D Milam]

Of course they match up. Only someone who refuses to face the truth would say they do not match up.

I just explained it, you have tunnel vision. What was the first question? WHEN WILL THESE THING BE? What things? What did Jesus say? That one stone would not be left on another (temples destruction). So, he answers the first question in verses 4-6 and carries on via the Disciples lives until verse 14 when he tells WHAT BRINGS THE 70th week.

Then in verse 15 we see the AoD 70th week. You can't deny ANYTHING I stated. PERIOD.

 

[Truth7t7]

What do you mean "it will be copy paste from here on regarding this repeated question"? That is all you do. Why break a habit of a lifetime? Readers can verify this by reading any thread you have been involved in. Multiple posts have been sidestepped above and countless arguments and Scriptures have been ignored. That is the only way your theology survives. Avoidance is your MO.

Your duplicitous argument has been roundly exposed above, and you know it. You failed to address the various contradictions in your argument. Your attempt to suggest that the Revelation 13 beast is different to the Revelation 17 and 19 beast is ridiculous. You obviously haven't thought this one out. You ignore the fact that Revelation 13 gives the beast the exact same description as the Revelation 17 beast.

Revelation 13:1: "And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.”

Revelation 17:3 says, “So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.”

Your theology just went up in a puff of smoke and there is nothing you can do about it apart from acknowledge you are wrong. It is doubtless that will happen.

Your whole argument for Beast 1 being a literal man is this:



















This is one of the most naïve arguments I've ever heard, especially in regard to the book of Revelation. This is a ridiculous argument that I exposed yet you (as usual) would not even recognize it. That is because it exposes your error.

This is magnified when you effortlessly insist that "the Whore (a woman) Mystery Babylon The Great" represents "Jerusalem." This is mega hypocrisy and questionable and inconsistent hermeneutics.

According to your reasoning, if Revelation describes this entity as a "whore," a "woman" or "she" or "her" this makes her a literal woman.

But no, that would be too consistent.

Scripture below teaches (The Beast) and (The False Prophet) will be (Alive) and cast into the lake of fire (Living)

Revelation 1920KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Daniel 7:10-11 below is in perfect agreement with John's interpretation, (The Beast) will have a living body that is destroyed at the future second coming and final judgment

Daniel 7:10-11KJV
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Conclusion: Your reformed preterist claims that (The Beast) is a (Spirit) that has been present for the past 2,000 years is "False"!

 

[Truth7t7]

I just explained it, you have tunnel vision. What was the first question? WHEN WILL THESE THING BE? What things? What did Jesus say? That one stone would not be left on another (temples destruction).

Jesus Christ spoke of a symbolic destruction of the Temple seen, and the Temple destroyed was his literal body as scripture clearly teaches below

"Destroy This Temple" as Jesus and the Pharisees viewed the temple that took 46 years to build

Interpretation: But he spake of the temple of his body

"Yes" Reformed Preterist Eschatology in 67-70AD fulfillment, would be found in the court of the Pharisees literal interpretation

Once Again, 67-70AD Jerusalems destruction had absolutely "Nothing" to do with fulfillment of Matthew Chapter 24, Mark Chapter 13, or Luke Chapter 21

John 2:18-22KJV
18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

 

[WPM]

"Your question has been answered" it will be copy paste from here on regarding this repeated question

Jesus Is The Lord

1.) The 7 heads are 7 literal mountains upon this earth

2.) The 10 horns are 10 future literal kings

3.) The Woman sitting on this beast is the great city Jerusalem where Jesus was crucified

4.) (The Beast) is a future literal king upon this earth the 8th, a human man

What do you mean "it will be copy paste from here on regarding this repeated question"? That is all you do. Why break a habit of a lifetime? Readers can verify this by reading any thread you have been involved in. Multiple posts have been sidestepped above and countless arguments and Scriptures have been ignored. That is the only way your theology survives. Avoidance is your MO.

Your self-defeating argument has been roundly exposed above, and you know it. You failed to address the various contradictions in your argument. Your attempt to suggest that the Revelation 13 beast is different to the Revelation 17 and 19 beast is ridiculous. You obviously haven't thought this one out. You ignore the fact that Revelation 13 gives the beast the exact same description as the Revelation 17 beast.

Revelation 13:1: "And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.”

Revelation 17:3 says, “So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.”

No one objective would surely deny that we are looking at the same beastly entity. The only way that one would argue otherwise is to support false teaching.

Your whole argument for Beast 1 being a literal man is this:

You give complete disregard to the fact that (The Beast) is described with personal pronouns, He, His, Him, a literal human man

Your human reason is silenced in scriptural truth below

The Beast will have the unsaved world's allegiance, and he will be a individual human man as scripture teaches in Revelation chapter 13 and 19 as seen below, described by personal pronouns He, His, Him, that will be cast living into the lake of fire as seen in Revelation 19:20

OH sure, use the counterfeit and corrupt bibles to claim your "It", No wonder why you hate the KJV 411 years and going strong
Revelation 13 :5-7KJV
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

NIV Below, A Counterfeit Of God's True Words

Revelation 13:5-7NIV
5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. 6 It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. 7 It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.

Revelation Chapter 13 describes (The Beast) with personal pronouns He, His, Him, a human man

It's simple, the beast of the sea seen in Revelation Chapter 13 is described with Personal pronouns He, His, Him, A Human Man

You claims of a (Beast Kingdom) and (Satan) are "False" Scripture below clearly teaches (The Beast) and (The False Prophet) will have living bodies that are cast "Living" into the lake of fire First Person Pronoun's: He, His, Him Revelation 19:20KJV

Who you trying to kid, he, his, him, are personal pronouns, and the KJV is the English language, are you a translator,

John's (The Beast) in Revelation chapter 13 will be a future literal human man, that is described with personal pronouns, He, His, Him

Scripture below identifies the man of sin with the personal pronoun "Him" a human man

This is one of the most naïve arguments I've ever heard, especially in regard to the book of Revelation. This is a nonsensical argument that I highlighted above, yet, as usual, you carefully steered around it. That is because it exposes your error.

This is magnified when you effortlessly insist that "the Whore [a woman] Mystery Babylon the Great" represents "Jerusalem." This is mega hypocrisy and questionable and inconsistent hermeneutics. According to your reasoning, if Revelation describes this entity as a "whore," a "woman" or "she" or "her" this makes her a literal woman.

But no, that would be too consistent.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Jesus Christ spoke of a symbolic destruction of the Temple seen, and the Temple destroyed was his literal body as scripture clearly teaches below

"Destroy This Temple" as Jesus and the Pharisees viewed the temple that took 46 years to build

Interpretation: But he spake of the temple of his body

"Yes" Reformed Preterist Eschatology in 67-70AD fulfillment, would be found in the court of the Pharisees literal interpretation

Once Again, 67-70AD Jerusalems destruction had absolutely "Nothing" to do with fulfillment of Matthew Chapter 24, Mark Chapter 13, or Luke Chapter 21

John 2:18-22KJV
18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

As I have stated before, you are clueless on Prophecy. You try to conflate scriptures all the time. You do understand Jesus can speak about more than one thing right? He spoke about the Temples DESTRUCTION in 70 AD. And he spoke about is Body being raised. This is basic, simple stuff, and you are always in error, so that doesn't surprise me in the least tbh. I am only surprised when you are right on something, but alas, a broken clock is correct twice a day.

 

[Truth7t7]

As I have stated before, you are clueless on Prophecy. You try to conflate scriptures all the time. You do understand Jesus can speak about more than one thing right? He spoke about the Temples D4STRUCTION in 70 AD. And he spoke about is Body being raised. This is basic, simple stuff, and you are always in error, so that doesn't surprise me in the least tbh. I am only surprised when you are right on something, but alas, a broken clock is correct twice a day.

John 2:18-22KJV
18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

John 2:18-22KJV
18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

Which is not the Olivet Discouse. SMH.

 

[Truth7t7]

Which is not the Olivet DiscouSe. SMH.

Is Mark Chapter 13 or Luke Chapter 21 the Olivet discourse, Big Smiles!

Of course Jesus stood with the pharisees observing the literal temple in Jerusalem, of course Jesus stated "Destroy This Temple" and of course it wasn't the literal temple in Jerusalem, it was the temple of his body

Your suggestion this represent two different events in destruction is "Laughable"

Jesus Christ spoke of a symbolic destruction of the Temple seen, and the Temple destroyed was his literal body as scripture clearly teaches below

"Destroy This Temple" as Jesus and the Pharisees viewed the temple that took 46 years to build

Interpretation: But he spake of the temple of his body

"Yes" Reformed Preterist Eschatology in 67-70AD fulfillment, would be found in the court of the Pharisees literal interpretation

Once Again, 67-70AD Jerusalems destruction had absolutely "Nothing" to do with fulfillment of Matthew Chapter 24, Mark Chapter 13, or Luke Chapter 21

John 2:18-22KJV
18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

 

[Timtofly]

"All these things" did not include any reference to Jesus' return, which Jesus said would be on an unknown day *after* the great tribulation of the Jewish People during their long NT exile. "All these things" was referring exclusively to the main prophecy, which was the destruction of the temple, the surrounding of Jerusalem by the Romans, and the preliminary events that presaged these things.

Luke 21 happened in part in the first century. But Jerusalem and Israel did not blossom as a fig tree in the first century. The destruction of Jerusalem has been fulfilled. The nation of Israel has been fulfilled. People are still alive and all has not yet been fulfilled, because the King is not on earth.

Matthew 24 is still future. The Second Coming has not happened. Jerusalem was still destroyed in the first century. Jerusalem and Israel are once again restored, yet the Second Coming has not happened, and some people of the generation of restoration are still alive. That generation has not passed away in totality. You cannot claim it over until every last human is dead. The AoD has not been fulfilled. The GT has not been fulfilled. The Second Coming has not been fulfilled. Jesus will personally kill the last one of that generation at Armageddon. Then the Olivet Discourse will be fulfilled.

Here are the two verses and they have a slightly different wording from each other:

Luke "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled."

Matthew " Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

Luke just claims everything will be fulfilled by the generation of the fig tree. He did not say they would experience all that is mentioned.

Matthew does not list the armies nor destruction of Jerusalem. That last person of that generation would see the Second Coming, would experience the GT, and would go through the 42 months of AoD, and then would be killed at Armageddon. Then all would be fulfulled.

The part that happened in the first century was fulfilled. That is not an issue. It was fulfilled even before people today were born. Certainly it is still fulfilled when they die. Preterist try to claim a single generation has to live from the Cross until the Second Coming. You are confused because you try to force fit Matthew 24 into the first century as being partially fulfilled. There was no GT, AoD, nor Second Coming in the first century. Certainly the fig tree did not bloom in the first century. That was when it withered and died.

 

[WPM]

"Your question has been answered" it will be copy paste from here on regarding this repeated question

Jesus Is The Lord

1.) The 7 heads are 7 literal mountains upon this earth

2.) The 10 horns are 10 future literal kings

3.) The Woman sitting on this beast is the great city Jerusalem where Jesus was crucified

4.) (The Beast) is a future literal king upon this earth the 8th, a human man

What do you mean "it will be copy paste from here on regarding this repeated question"? That is all you do. Why break a habit of a lifetime? Readers can verify this by reading any thread you have been involved in. Multiple posts have been sidestepped above and countless arguments and Scriptures have been ignored. That is the only way your theology survives. Avoidance is your MO.

Your self-defeating argument has been roundly exposed above, and you know it. You failed to address the various contradictions in your argument. Your attempt to suggest that the Revelation 13 beast is different to the Revelation 17 and 19 beast is ridiculous. You obviously haven't thought this one out. You ignore the fact that Revelation 13 gives the beast the exact same description as the Revelation 17 beast.

Revelation 13:1: "And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.”

Revelation 17:3 says, “So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.”

No one objective would surely deny that we are looking at the same beastly entity. The only way that one would argue otherwise is to support false teaching.

Your whole argument for Beast 1 being a literal man is this:

You give complete disregard to the fact that (The Beast) is described with personal pronouns, He, His, Him, a literal human man

Your human reason is silenced in scriptural truth below

The Beast will have the unsaved world's allegiance, and he will be a individual human man as scripture teaches in Revelation chapter 13 and 19 as seen below, described by personal pronouns He, His, Him, that will be cast living into the lake of fire as seen in Revelation 19:20

OH sure, use the counterfeit and corrupt bibles to claim your "It", No wonder why you hate the KJV 411 years and going strong
Revelation 13 :5-7KJV
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

NIV Below, A Counterfeit Of God's True Words

Revelation 13:5-7NIV
5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. 6 It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. 7 It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.

Revelation Chapter 13 describes (The Beast) with personal pronouns He, His, Him, a human man

It's simple, the beast of the sea seen in Revelation Chapter 13 is described with Personal pronouns He, His, Him, A Human Man

You claims of a (Beast Kingdom) and (Satan) are "False" Scripture below clearly teaches (The Beast) and (The False Prophet) will have living bodies that are cast "Living" into the lake of fire First Person Pronoun's: He, His, Him Revelation 19:20KJV

Who you trying to kid, he, his, him, are personal pronouns, and the KJV is the English language, are you a translator,

John's (The Beast) in Revelation chapter 13 will be a future literal human man, that is described with personal pronouns, He, His, Him

Scripture below identifies the man of sin with the personal pronoun "Him" a human man

This is one of the most naïve arguments I've ever heard, especially in regard to the book of Revelation. This is a nonsensical argument that I highlighted above, yet, as usual, you carefully steered around it. That is because it exposes your error.

This is magnified when you effortlessly insist that "the Whore [a woman] Mystery Babylon the Great" represents "Jerusalem." This is mega hypocrisy and questionable and inconsistent hermeneutics. According to your reasoning, if Revelation describes this entity as a "whore," a "woman" or "she" or "her" this makes her a literal woman.

But no, that would be too consistent.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Luke 21 happened in part in the first century. But Jerusalem and Israel did not blossom as a fig tree in the first century.

Yes, this had me a bit perplexed, because I'd been told for years that this referred to the rebirth of the nation Israel, that the "fig tree" represented Israel. However, nothing in the prophecy specifically identified the fig tree with Israel, so that it is *not* a matter of biblical doctrine. Instead, we read that these are specific indications that judgment was coming to Israel.

So how could the blossoming of a fig tree represent the coming of judgment? Wouldn't it rather signal the advent of Spring, which is a positive occasion? Normally yes. However, Jesus commonly used the theme of Spring and Fall as seasons in which judgment happened regardless.

Luke 23.31 For if people do these things when the tree is green, what will happen when it is dry?”

Eze 17.24 All the trees of the forest will know that I the Lord bring down the tall tree and make the low tree grow tall. I dry up the green tree and make the dry tree flourish. “‘I the Lord have spoken, and I will do it.’”

The advent of Spring is an indication that something is developing, or progressing towards a particular end. And Jesus began his Discourse by declaring the end was the destruction of the temple.

So the things that were developing he called "birth pains." Again, a birth is normally a positive development. However, the Bible also speaks of the negation of birth by judgment.

Hosea 9.14 Give them, Lord— what will you give them? Give them wombs that miscarry and breasts that are dry.

I'll answer the rest of your post later...

 

[Timtofly]

Not seeing this is utter blindness to me. Believe as you will.... [sigh]

Luke said the Olivet Discourse took place over several days. Not sure how you miss the point that a lot more was said over several days, than a few paragraphs we have:

"And in the day time he was teaching in the temple; and at night he went out, and abode in the mount that is called the mount of Olives. And all the people came early in the morning to him in the temple, for to hear him."

It is you that limit the entire OD to the few yards they walked on one single day. Especially if you claim Jesus was crucified on Friday. He had from Sunday to Wednesday or Thursday teaching in the temple and on the mount of Olives. Personally I think it was on Monday and Tuesday. He taught in the early morning in the temple, and spent the afternoon and evening on the mount of Olives.

 

[covenantee]

a lot more was said over several days

No Scriptural evidence for that at all.

Luke 21:37
...at night he went out, and abode in the mount that is called the mount of Olives.

No mention or even implication of speaking/discourse at night.

 

[Truth7t7]

What do you mean "it will be copy paste from here on regarding this repeated question"? That is all you do. Why break a habit of a lifetime? Readers can verify this by reading any thread you have been involved in. Multiple posts have been sidestepped above and countless arguments and Scriptures have been ignored. That is the only way your theology survives. Avoidance is your MO.

Your self-defeating argument has been roundly exposed above, and you know it. You failed to address the various contradictions in your argument. Your attempt to suggest that the Revelation 13 beast is different to the Revelation 17 and 19 beast is ridiculous. You obviously haven't thought this one out. You ignore the fact that Revelation 13 gives the beast the exact same description as the Revelation 17 beast.

Revelation 13:1: "And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.”

Revelation 17:3 says, “So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.”

No one objective would surely deny that we are looking at the same beastly entity. The only way that one would argue otherwise is to support false teaching.

Your whole argument for Beast 1 being a literal man is this:



















This is one of the most naïve arguments I've ever heard, especially in regard to the book of Revelation. This is a nonsensical argument that I highlighted above, yet, as usual, you carefully steered around it. That is because it exposes your error.

This is magnified when you effortlessly insist that "the Whore [a woman] Mystery Babylon the Great" represents "Jerusalem." This is mega hypocrisy and questionable and inconsistent hermeneutics. According to your reasoning, if Revelation describes this entity as a "whore," a "woman" or "she" or "her" this makes her a literal woman.

But no, that would be too consistent.

Your claims the scripture below is (Figurative Speech) is false, The Beast will have a future (Literal Living Body) that is destroyed and cast alive into the lake of fire

Scripture below teaches (The Beast) and (The False Prophet) will be (Alive) and cast into the lake of fire (Living)

Revelation 1920KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Daniel 7:10-11 below is in perfect agreement with John's interpretation, (The Beast) will have a living body that is destroyed at the future second coming and final judgment

Daniel 7:10-11KJV
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Conclusion: Your reformed preterist claims that (The Beast) is a (Spirit) that has been present for the past 2,000 years is "False"!

 

[ScottA]

I don't suffer any illusions about being able to change many minds, but I still think it's worth the effort. I've been studying this many years, and it really seems to be a headache in the study of biblical prophecy. Way back in the early 70s I read Hal Lindsey's book, "The Late Great Planet Earth," and really enjoyed it. He saw amazing coincidences between the news of our time and biblical prophecies that seem to be coming to precise fulfillment.

Unfortunately, Lindsey did something that I believe has been disastrous to the understanding of biblical prophecy. And I'm sure he's not the only one. He had a tremendous desire to convert biblical prophecies that had already been fulfilled into future prophecies. Why waste time reading prophecies that had already been fulfilled, such as prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem by Babylon? Why not focus on prophecies that have yet to be fulfilled so that we can show people how God's word is still relevant in our own day?

And so, Lindsey converted what Jesus said in his Olivet Discourse from being about the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans to being an endtime prophecy of the generation in which Israel would be reborn as a nation. The passage reads, "This generation will not pass away until all these things take place." This prophecy was actually being spoken about Jesus' own generation--"this generation" referred to the generation in which Jesus lived.

But Lindsey converted this into a prophecy of the last generation. "This generation" was, for Lindsey, the generation that saw the rebirth of the Israeli nation. The generation that sees the rebirth of Israel would not pass away until the Rapture of the Church takes place first.

Well sadly, when many like myself who like to point out this error do so we are called "Preterists" as a name of insult. Preterists was a particular school of thought that arose in history to declare not just that "this generation" was fulfilled in the Roman conquest, but also that the *entirety of the book of Revelation* was fulfilled in the Early Church.

I don't believe that--I'm not a Preterist. But I do believe that Preterists were at least partly right, in particular the part about "this generation" referring to the conquest of Jerusalem by Rome. I believe that the book of Revelation does refer to the endtimes, when the Antichrist will arise and reign for 3.5 years.

So we have this battle between the choice between an historial fulfillment or a future fulfillment. Can we know the difference? Of course we can, but often a person is taught a particular position when he is moldable, and is not likely to change his or her position without a firm conviction that the person they trusted was not entirely trustworthy. Since Lindsey has been a faithful Christian throughout his life, and has done a lot of good, it is difficult to break trust in him in areas where he has been wrong.

My purpose here is not to disparage teachers like Lindsey, but only to point out that good people can at times be wrong. Once you begin with a wrong point of view, a lot of the picture gets muddied, and a lot of rationalization takes place. In the end, the Olivet Discourse can become nearly incomprehensible. Even trying to look at it correctly finds obstacles because so many of the points have been corrupted along with the main point. What is the "great tribulation?" What are "all these things?"

All of these questions can be quite easily answered, but not if one has been indoctrinated in a false position, and has therefore corrupted his view on all of the points necessary to make his picture consistent. "All these things" becomes "the Rapture." The "great tribulation" becomes "the reign of Antichrist."

In reality, "all these things" in context was only ever meant to refer not to Christ's return but to the main point, referring to all the things connected with the destruction of Jerusalem, including the destruction of the temple, and the initial signs that presaged that event. The "great tribulation" explicitly described the fall out from the destruction of Jerusalem in an age-long exile of the Jewish People.

But I'm not going to convince many people, although I would wish to. Understanding historical prophecies have great value in teaching moral lessons, quite apart from proving prophecies are still coming true today. The Babylonian Judgment teaches us how we need to remain faithful to God's moral laws, unlike Israel who committed gross idolatry in the days before their capture and exile.

We do not need to make the Olivet Discourse entirely about the future, including the rebirth of Israel and the rise of Antichrist. There is plenty in that discourse that describes both historically-fulfilled prophecy and future prophecy. We do not need the Abomination of Desolation to be about the Antichrist and the Great Tribulation to be about the Reign of Antichrist. The exile of the Jews described in that Discourse is still taking place today, until the nation of Israel is restored to faith at Christ's return.

It's sad but it's now 2023, and well past the failure of Lindsey's prediction that the Rapture of the Church would take place in the generation of Israel's rebirth (1948). We're way overdue to look at this errant interpretation of the Olivet Discourse. And we need to get past the name-calling and false association with Preterism. The Early Church Fathers held to the historical interpretation of this Discourse, and I think we should too, even if certain terms continue to represent some headaches. Thanks for listening.

I do not concur with all that you wrote...but "Like" that you stated it honestly with a willingness to see the onion peeled back over the times of otherwise good men of God who are not to be blamed for stepping up in spite of certain shortcomings. Thanks--well stated!

Indeed, the onion is not yet peeled back all the way. We should understand that the plan of God to reveal all truth "here a little, there a little" is intentional, allowing that every generation should come to the knowledge of God even if "through a glass dimly" until all have been born "but each one in his own order."

Even so, we have the promise from Christ not to be lead only in part (dimly), but "unto all truth." Daniel's prophecy was sealed "till the time of the end", the time of which Revelation refers to as preceding "the sounding of the seventh angel." That time is now upon us, as confirmed by the increase of knowledge and truth about time itself, which is now to be "finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets."

I too have been derogatorily called a Preterist by those well-meaning servants who barely know the meaning of the word, who are to be corrected either by reason or by fire. The Preterists simply picked a time in which they believed things occurred. While the truth according to what was foretold of the sounding of the seventh angel, is not one of this time or of that time, but rather the "end" of time--as time not at all being a factor, but "finished." In which case, all points of doctrine become in need of clarification.

Dare we?

 

[Truth7t7]

What do you mean "it will be copy paste from here on regarding this repeated question"? That is all you do. Why break a habit of a lifetime? Readers can verify this by reading any thread you have been involved in. Multiple posts have been sidestepped above and countless arguments and Scriptures have been ignored. That is the only way your theology survives. Avoidance is your MO.

Your self-defeating argument has been roundly exposed above, and you know it. You failed to address the various contradictions in your argument. Your attempt to suggest that the Revelation 13 beast is different to the Revelation 17 and 19 beast is ridiculous. You obviously haven't thought this one out. You ignore the fact that Revelation 13 gives the beast the exact same description as the Revelation 17 beast.

Revelation 13:1: "And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.”

Revelation 17:3 says, “So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.”

No one objective would surely deny that we are looking at the same beastly entity. The only way that one would argue otherwise is to support false teaching.

Your whole argument for Beast 1 being a literal man is this:



















This is one of the most naïve arguments I've ever heard, especially in regard to the book of Revelation. This is a nonsensical argument that I highlighted above, yet, as usual, you carefully steered around it. That is because it exposes your error.

This is magnified when you effortlessly insist that "the Whore [a woman] Mystery Babylon the Great" represents "Jerusalem." This is mega hypocrisy and questionable and inconsistent hermeneutics. According to your reasoning, if Revelation describes this entity as a "whore," a "woman" or "she" or "her" this makes her a literal woman.

But no, that would be too consistent.

Reformed Preterist Escgatology is wrong on its interpretation, concerning the future events seen below

Future Events Unfulfilled

1.) Daniel's AOD Matthew 24:15
2.) The Great Tribulation Matthew 24:21
3.) The Literal Human (Man Of Sin/The Beast) 2 Thessaloians 2:1-3, Revelation Chapter 13
4.) Literal Prophets Returned In The (Two Witnesses) Revelation Chapter 11
5.) The Lord's Second Coming In Fire And Final Judgement Luke 17:29-30 (The End)

 

[Randy Kluth]

Luke 21 happened in part in the first century. But Jerusalem and Israel did not blossom as a fig tree in the first century. The destruction of Jerusalem has been fulfilled. The nation of Israel has been fulfilled. People are still alive and all has not yet been fulfilled, because the King is not on earth.

Yes, the destruction of the Jerusalem happened in 70 AD, and again in 132 AD. But what was said in Luke 21 extended God's judgment against the Jews to include the entirety of the NT period.

Luke 21.24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Jesus called this the "great tribulation" of the Jewish People. And yet, the term "the great tribulation" has been extracted from this and misapplied to the Reign of Antichrist.

Luke 21 is all about the judgment of the Jewish People in the present era. As Paul said, their downfall has become an occasion for the rest of the nations. God is giving all nations opportunity to adopt His laws for their states and nations. This means this chapter should be read with a soteriological notion in mind, and not just with an interest to "crystal ball reading."

Matthew 24 is still future. The Second Coming has not happened.

This goes without saying, unless one is a Full Preterist. We all accept that Jesus' 2nd Coming has not yet happened.

Jerusalem was still destroyed in the first century. Jerusalem and Israel are once again restored, yet the Second Coming has not happened, and some people of the generation of restoration are still alive.

Jerusalem and Israel have been "reborn," so to speak, but they have not be restored in the biblical sense. A true biblical restoration takes place when the people return to their God, and God bestows His blessings, once again, upon the land. That will only happen, I believe, when Christ comes back.

That generation has not passed away in totality. You cannot claim it over until every last human is dead.

Of course I can claim that the generation Jesus spoke of has passed away in totality. If the generation Jesus spoke of was the generation of his Apostles, then that generation has most certainly passed away!

But if, hypothetically, the passage indicated that the last person still living in 1948 would see the 2nd Coming, then yes--that person is still alive. But again, the "blossoming of the fig tree" is not said, in Jesus' Discourse, to be a rebirth of the state of Israel. Rather, it is said to be the "birth pains" of the destruction of the temple. At least, that's how I read it.

The AoD has not been fulfilled.

I believe the Abomination of Desolation was identified, in Dan 9, to be the destruction of Jerusalem and the sanctuary by a pagan army. That happened in 70 AD.

There was another use of the "AoD" term, which applied, I believe, to Antiochus 4. But that is another chapter in Daniel.

The GT has not been fulfilled.

My view of the Great Tribulation is that it is the Jewish Diaspora of the NT age. Yes, it is, in part, still continuing. Israel has not been fully restored.

The use of the term to apply to the reign of Antichrist is man-made. The Bible itself does not identify the Reign of Antichrist as either the Great Tribulation or the Abomination of Desolation. Many Christians love to "prophesy," and "tell the future." And so, they misuse fulfilled prophecies and apply them, errantly, to future events.

The Second Coming has not been fulfilled. Jesus will personally kill the last one of that generation at Armageddon. Then the Olivet Discourse will be fulfilled.

Here are the two verses and they have a slightly different wording from each other:

Luke "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled."

Matthew " Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

Luke just claims everything will be fulfilled by the generation of the fig tree. He did not say they would experience all that is mentioned.

Matthew does not list the armies nor destruction of Jerusalem. That last person of that generation would see the Second Coming, would experience the GT, and would go through the 42 months of AoD, and then would be killed at Armageddon. Then all would be fulfulled.

The part that happened in the first century was fulfilled. That is not an issue. It was fulfilled even before people today were born. Certainly it is still fulfilled when they die. Preterist try to claim a single generation has to live from the Cross until the Second Coming. You are confused because you try to force fit Matthew 24 into the first century as being partially fulfilled. There was no GT, AoD, nor Second Coming in the first century. Certainly the fig tree did not bloom in the first century. That was when it withered and died.

I'm not force-fitting anything--just giving my own interpretation, brother. I'm not a Preterist, but I agree with them that this Discourse was about the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in the generation of Jesus' Apostles. But I think the prophecy also covered the entire NT era by applying the "Great Tribulation" to the Jewish Diaspora of the entire NT age.

A lot of people get side-tracked on the words "all these things" will take place in this generation. This shows a lack of understanding how certain language relies on context to apply specific terms.

If I say a terrible storm is coming imminently, with buildings coming down, trains wrecked, and lives lost. And I continue by saying, then later, there will be many years of recovery.

I might state this as follows: *All these things* will happen in the next few weeks, not at all meaning to include the many years of recovery that follow in the aftermath. The focus is on the terrible storm coming, and on all of the associated wreckage. It's *all those things" that will happen in this generation, and not the aftermath, or recovery period.

But if you begin with a failure to understand Jesus' main idea, which is the imminent destruction of the temple in his generation, you may get confused about what "all these things" meant by Jesus? You might think he was saying he was going to Come Again in his own generation. Obviously, that didn't happen, and I don't believe that's what he meant.

 

[WPM]

Your claims the scripture below is (Figurative Speech) is false, The Beast will have a future (Literal Living Body) that is destroyed and cast alive into the lake of fire

Scripture below teaches (The Beast) and (The False Prophet) will be (Alive) and cast into the lake of fire (Living)

Revelation 1920KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Daniel 7:10-11 below is in perfect agreement with John's interpretation, (The Beast) will have a living body that is destroyed at the future second coming and final judgment

Daniel 7:10-11KJV
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Conclusion: Your reformed preterist claims that (The Beast) is a (Spirit) that has been present for the past 2,000 years is "False"!

More avoidance. That is who you are and that is what you do. Address the evidence which exposes your theology.

 

[Timtofly]

There is nowhere in Scripture that shows human beings in the abyss (Luke 8:31, Romans 10:7, Revelation 9:1, 2, 11, 11:7, 17:8, and 20:1, 3). Any time it is mentioned, it is shown to be the exclusive abode of Satan and his demons.

The abyss is this:

"And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence." Luke 16:26


The abyss is the great gulf, a deep opening in sheol. Those tormented were on one side. Those in Abraham's bosom were on the other. The abyss went even deeper than sheol and Abraham's bosom. The pit is a place further down into darkness than even sheol.

 

[ewq1938]

Jesus called this the "great tribulation" of the Jewish People. And yet, the term "the great tribulation" has been extracted from this and misapplied to the Reign of Antichrist.

Contextually the great trib Christ spoke of was a time of persecution of Christians during the same time the Beast would reign (usually called the AC). It was never a Jewish tribulation (Judaism).


The Olivet Discourse (Matthew):

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

False Christ's are warned about.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

These are Christians being delivered up not Jews. Hated because of Christ's name! This proves that Christ is talking about Christians when he says "you". He was also speaking to his Christian disciples.


Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


The gospel of the kingdom is about Christ and is delivered by Christians.


Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, ( whoso readeth, let him understand: )

"Ye" are Christians.

So, the AoD is going to affect "all the world" and Christians are the targets! Christians are persecuted and murdered for the testimony of Christ and because they carry his name.

Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

"Ye" is still the same people, Christians.


Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The elect are Christians not Jews per the context of this passage.

Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

Again, a warning about false Christs given to "you" which are Christians.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Another reference to false Christ's and the Christian elect.


Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

You=Christians and yet again another false Christ reference. There is a false Christ coming to deceive Christians and those not deceived will be delivered up, persecuted and killed.

Nothing about Jews at all because Jews are not the target of the Antichrist and tribulation.


Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


And here is the second coming. The gathering of the elect by angels is another way to speak of the rapture and the rapture is only for Christians. Christians are the body of Christ, are the Church of Christ, and are the bride of Christ, targeted by the enemy during the Great Tribulation of Christian persecution.

Again, nothing about Jews in the religion of Judaism at all because they are not the target of the Antichrist and tribulation.