Once Saved Always Saved Garbage Teaching!!

[Grailhunter]

One has to be wrong GH.
And, as I've said before....this shouldn't be a point of contention IF we're living for God and following His commandments as best we can.

The problem is that many misuse the scriptures that seem to point to the fact that salvation is eternal and cannot be lost.

Using scripture is valid.
What did Jesus mean in Luke 15:24?
Jesus said that the son was dead and had come to life AGAIN.
Which means that the son:
HAD LIFE (saved)
BECAME DEAD (lost)
CAME TO LIFE AGAIN (saved)

I agree that scripture must be reconciled and it usually is.
But how does on reconcile unconditional security vs conditional security?

I agree that scripture must be reconciled and it usually is.
But how does on reconcile unconditional security vs conditional security?

You know this is true. There is an answer, and quoting supposed contradicting scriptures, is not where the effort should be used. Both sides are quoting true and valid scriptures....and since this has been going on for nearly 2000 years, you can bet that neither side will prevail here. Wrong thinking. Someone should have noticed this!

 

[justbyfaith]

3. Even the N.T. teaches us that it was Adam that caused the fall:

1Ti 2:13, For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14, And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Adam ate the fruit because he loved his wife: he basically died for her spiritually. But Eve died spiritually because she was deceived by satan.

 

[justbyfaith]

I agree that scripture must be reconciled and it usually is.
But how does on reconcile unconditional security vs conditional security?

You know this is true. There is an answer, and quoting supposed contradicting scriptures, is not where the effort should be used. Both sides are quoting true and valid scriptures....and since this has been going on for nearly 2000 years, you can bet that neither side will prevail here. Wrong thinking. Someone should have noticed this!

There is an answer; but people continue to have hardened hearts against the real truth of the matter; and therefore we do not all come to a uniform consensus on the issue.

 

[Grailhunter]

There is an answer; but people continue to have hardened hearts against the real truth of the matter; and therefore we do not all come to a uniform consensus on the issue.

Your truth....is not Gospel. There are others here that know the scriptures just as well as you and present scriptures that are just as godly as yours. Short sighted and naive of you to think only you are right. Living in a bubble makes you short sighted.

 

[GodsGrace]

I agree that scripture must be reconciled and it usually is.
But how does on reconcile unconditional security vs conditional security?

You know this is true. There is an answer, and quoting supposed contradicting scriptures, is not where the effort should be used. Both sides are quoting true and valid scriptures....and since this has been going on for nearly 2000 years, you can bet that neither side will prevail here. Wrong thinking. Someone should have noticed this!

I know this has been going on forever.
But it's important for new Christians to be aware of the right belief.

If faith is needed to be saved....
then losing faith will also lead to losing salvation.

John said that he who believes the Son has eternal life...
but he who does not obey the Son, shall not see life.
John 3:36

We must believe in the Son and Obey the Son to see life.
What if we stop doing this?

 

[justbyfaith]

Don't say silly things.
You're too smart.

It is not a silly thing...I am trying to make a point. And if you continue down my line of thinking, understanding that eternal life begins at the moment of faith (John 5:24), you will see that what I am saying is not a silly thing at all.

 

[Nondenom40]

ND, I don't believe the other member, @FollowHim meant that there is A SPECIFIC GROUP that believes what he has stated.

My experience is that there are persons, perhaps, in any church group that may believe what he said. Also, it DOES seem that some churches encourage this belief even though it is not plainly stated.

Charles Stanley once said on a televised sermon, that once someone is saved, that person is saved forever NO MATTER WHAT THEY DO OR HOW THEY LIVE. Someone hearing this might very well decide to return to their previous sinful life since they were new Christians or were not well trained.

It's not that the congregation of these churches are taught that one can sin all they want to and still be saved...but this is the message that is HEARD by some persons.

Some call this easy believism or cheap grace.

Twisting of scripture, as you said, is also a good way of saying this.
AND, some say that we are not required to work or do good deeds.
I've heard that it's a sin to try and HELP GOD to be saved since He has already done everything.
You can post pages of verses and they are not accepted.

So, yes, I can confirm what the other member is saying and I believe that you also will hear this as you spend more time on these forums.

These are FollowHim's words;
"I have spent years, literally talking to a group". If not a group then what? But this group or person still has specific beliefs that should point us to a denomination or sect we can take a closer look at. Again from his own words there is nothing in this 'group' that i would confuse with a christian.

 

[justbyfaith]

Your truth....is not Gospel. There are others here that know the scriptures just as well as you and present scriptures that are just as godly as yours. Short sighted and naive of you to think only you are right. Living in a bubble makes you short sighted.

Of course, your gospel is the only truth!

How else would you be able to determine that what I am preaching is false (which it is not)?

If you do not claim that your gospel is the only truth, then what is your plumbline for determining that my gospel is not the truth?

So then, shortsighted and naive of you to think that you are right. Living in a bubble makes you shortsighted.

 

[justbyfaith]

I do not claim to have the only truth. But I do know that I have studied to shew myself approved for over 28 years. So if I am wrong on anything, well, I'm not sure what the reason for that might be.

 

[GodsGrace]

1Ti 2:13, For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14, And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Adam ate the fruit because he loved his wife: he basically died for her spiritually. But Eve died spiritually because she was deceived by satan.

The woman was deceived because she did not know the truth.
Adam was NOT deceived...he KNEW what he was doing when he bit into that fruit.
1 Timothy 2:14 does not mean that Eve is responsible for man's condition.

Have you not studied the Edenic Covenant?
With whom did God make this covenant?
Who represented mankind...Adam or Eve?

Read Genesis 3:6-7
6When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate. 7Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loin coverings.

Romans states that through one man came death
and through one Man came life.
I've already posted that verse and the above.

I'm rather shocked that you don't accept this...

 

[justbyfaith]

Actually I do claim to have the only truth. His name is Jesus. John 14:6.

 

[Nondenom40]

This is what Christianity has been doing for almost two millenniums, picking sides. Try arguing that point! There are two long sets of valid scriptures that say, you can sin, and a list of valid scriptures that say you cannot sin, also and…there are a full list of valid scriptures that say that salvation is solid…eternal…and a full set of valid scriptures that say you can loose your salvation. It is funny to watch these people as they argue their side, which means they deny the other scriptures….but both parties will stick their heads in the sand and say, the whole Bible is inerrant and without error! Believing one thing and say another….it is called hypocrisy. One of the more lengthy discussions Christ spoke of. The only way to make the Bible whole is to find the truth that harmonizes these scriptures. No…you cannot have your cake and eat it too. So if you believe the scriptures speak the truth, what logic is there to pick a side. Is this so hard to understand? Is the Bible divided? If you have to give up or do not care, at least respect one another’s beliefs.

All of these scriptures, when you set them against each other and when you explain them away with klondike explanations, you put all of the scriptures to question, you harm the meaning of other scriptures The Bible was written obviously in such a fashion that different interpretations can be read from it, when you take the stance that only your interpretation is right, you hurt Christianity. We are all Christians and we are divided enough. The wolves are circling, it would be best to stand together…..even sheep know this.

I believe scripture is harmonious and consistent. If there is a problem reconciling verses, we are the problem not scripture. So, my take is that verses which appear to suggest we can lose our salvation need to be studied deeper. Verses i've seen where we allegedly lose our salvation have nothing to do with salvation in the first place. Or sometimes its not even a true believer being spoken about. I'm of the firm conviction Jesus loses absolutely none that are given to Him by God the Father...john 6. The elect will persevere, they will endure and they have overcome. There are tares in the wheat and that will all be sorted out and i believe soon! Get ready.

 

[Grailhunter]

I know this has been going on forever.
But it's important for new Christians to be aware of the right belief.

If faith is needed to be saved....
then losing faith will also lead to losing salvation.

John said that he who believes the Son has eternal life...
but he who does not obey the Son, shall not see life.
John 3:36

We must believe in the Son and Obey the Son to see life.
What if we stop doing this?

lol You know you are preaching to the choir. lol We both know that there are scriptures for both sides. New Christians should be taught the ramifications of sin and there are many. You know that Christ's teaching was not about keeping the color of the cows in the same field. The sins that Christ speak of are wrongs against Christ, but they are also wrongs against ourselves. A life of sin will catch up with you, one way or another. The answer will solve an age old debate.

 

[GodsGrace]

These are FollowHim's words;
"I have spent years, literally talking to a group". If not a group then what? But this group or person still has specific beliefs that should point us to a denomination or sect we can take a closer look at. Again from his own words there is nothing in this 'group' that i would confuse with a christian.

I agree that they sure do not sound like Christians to me.
I think he's just clumping all these types together into a "group".

But we could wait and see what @FollowHim replies.

 

[justbyfaith]

The woman was deceived because she did not know the truth.
Adam was NOT deceived...he KNEW what he was doing when he bit into that fruit.
1 Timothy 2:14 does not mean that Eve is responsible for man's condition.

Have you not studied the Edenic Covenant?
With whom did God make this covenant?
Who represented mankind...Adam or Eve?

Read Genesis 3:6-7
6When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate. 7Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loin coverings.

Romans states that through one man came death
and through one Man came life.
I've already posted that verse and the above.

I'm rather shocked that you don't accept this...

yes, Adam took responsibility for Eve's transgression. He was still innocent and pure when he partook of the fruit, and was not deceived.

Would Adam have eaten of the fruit if Eve hadn't been deceived?

I'm pretty certain that Adam saw that unless he would become as she was, she was doomed to a fate of condemnation apart from him.

His love for her motivated him to eat of the tree; but he was not deceived.

The root cause for them both eating of the tree was the devil's deception of Eve.

What is the Edenic covenant? I have never heard of that, in all my reading of scripture.

 

[Grailhunter]

I believe scripture is harmonious and consistent. If there is a problem reconciling verses, we are the problem not scripture. So, my take is that verses which appear to suggest we can lose our salvation need to be studied deeper. Verses i've seen where we allegedly lose our salvation have nothing to do with salvation in the first place. Or sometimes its not even a true believer being spoken about. I'm of the firm conviction Jesus loses absolutely none that are given to Him by God the Father...john 6. The elect will persevere, they will endure and they have overcome. There are tares in the wheat and that will all be sorted out and i believe soon! Get ready.

Again you have picked a side, leaving the other as invalid. That is not the answer. Both sides are right and have valid scriptures to back them up. But that does not make the Bible whole, it just makes each side feel good.

 

[GodsGrace]

lol You know you are preaching to the choir. lol We both know that there are scriptures for both sides. New Christians should be taught the ramifications of sin and there are many. You know that Christ's teaching was not about keeping the color of the cows in the same field. The sins that Christ speak of are wrongs against Christ, but they are also wrongs against ourselves. A life of sin will catch up with you, one way or another. The answer will solve an age old debate.

I don't think we lose salvation due to sin...unless it's a life of sin.
1 John 3:9

I do believe Paul tells us we can become lost if we do not hold on to our faith.

Hebrews 3:6
Hebrews 3:14

6but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house—whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.


14For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,


Why else would he always be warning of this possible falling away?
I don't know how this could be reconciled to OSAS.

 

[justbyfaith]

We must believe in the Son and Obey the Son to see life.
What if we stop doing this?

We can't stop doing this if our faith is genuine, Romans 10:10 faith. Because we are sealed by the Holy Spirit.

 

[GodsGrace]

yes, Adam took responsibility for Eve's transgression. He was still innocent and pure when he partook of the fruit, and was not deceived.

Would Adam have eaten of the fruit if Eve hadn't been deceived?

I'm pretty certain that Adam saw that unless he would become as she was, she was doomed to a fate of condemnation apart from him.

His love for her motivated him to eat of the tree; but he was not deceived.

The root cause for them both eating of the tree was the devil's deception of Eve.

What is the Edenic covenant? I have never heard of that, in all my reading of scripture.

I understand what you mean by saying that the eating happened because of satan's deception and Eve accepting it.

What I'm saying is that Adam is RESPONSIBLE for man's fall.

If I can find something quick re the Edenic Covenant, ok..otherwise it has to wait till the morning...too tired here.
I can tell you that it was between God and Adam.
God told Adam not to eat of the forbidden tree.
This was a conditional covenant....it was conditional upon the man obeying.
If the man obeyed, he would have kept his preternatural gifts...
if the man did not obey, he would receive curses....which, as you know, he did.

 

[Grailhunter]

I agree that they sure do not sound like Christians to me.
I think he's just clumping all these types together into a "group".

But we could wait and see what @FollowHim replies.

Of course that would be good. But some very smart and knowledgeable people will still choose to pick a side. You speak of young Christians, this is the sort of thing that could turn them off. After all these years, we do not understand? Battling scriptures that resolve nothing. No understanding. What do you think that looks like from a young Christian's perspective? As older Christians we juggle this stuff well, win or lose we understand that we should live our lives for Christ and not sin. But someone that is new, they read the conversion and wonder if they should worry about sin at all or figure they are damned because they know they are going to sin at some point, so why even try?