Once Saved, Always Saved?

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Taken

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I wanted to make this stand out,so I'M making it large.
That is right @farouk , we are to edify one another, encourage one another, to even carry our BRETHERN if needed.!

Yet I see more,how far can I push him down or slander what he has to say. Can ppl NOT see this makes only themselves look villainous ?

God will judge fairly and if you're not repenting and have Jesus for your advocate well........ I feel for what suffering will come !

Edify ~ (instruct ) one another.
* Agree.

The conundrum ~ (confusion or difficulty)
* Opinions superseding Facts.

The excuses ~ (blame and divert)
* You wrong, Bible not necessary.
* You wrong, Bible says.
* You wrong, Church says.
* You wrong, Cleric says.

Fact IS ~ Individual Freewill
Fact IS ~ Bible IS sound Doctrine.
Fact IS ~ Sound Doctrine adopted IS Righteous according to God.
Fact IS ~ Rejecting / Undermining Sound Doctrine IS Unrighteous.
Fact IS ~ Scripture IS a plethora of Adopt this, Reject that.

The conundrum ~ (confusion)
* Some Adopt THIS taught to BE Adopted.
* Some Adopt THAT taught to BE Rejected.
* WHILE THE complete OPPOSITES are each Claiming a “supposed” ONE SAME Biblical “Brotherhood”.

The Doctrine IS Revealed IN the ONE SAME SOURCE....Bible.
The Doctrine of Yes THIS, of No THAT....Are Not SAME Brethren.
The Doctrine of Yes THIS....Are the SAME Brethren.
The Doctrine of Not THAT....Are the SAME Brethren.

*God established Divisions...Oppositions...Up/Down....Within/Without...
Right/Wrong...Light/ Dark...Good/Evil...etc.

*Jesus elaborated on Divisions...Same identifying Groups of People...
Tribes - divisions among the Tribes.
Jews - divisions among the Jews.
Gentiles - divisions among the Gentiles.

Luke 12:
[51] Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

John.7
[43] So there was a division among the people because of him.

Today we have Group Divisions and Divisions within the Groups;
Approx.
World pop............................................................ 7.9 B
Large group...Christianity....within Divided...pop. 2.5 B
Large group...Islam.............within Divided...pop. 2.0 B
Large group...Hinduism.......within Divided...pop. 1.5 B
Small group...Buddhism......within Divided...pop. 500 M
Small group...Judaism ........within Divided...pop. 20 M
Small group(s) Multiple......within Divided...pop. 400 M
Religious Beliefs Reject................................pop. 800 M

General consensus;

* Religious groups: Busy themselves:
....Agreeing and Rejecting amongst their own groups.
....Rejecting other religious Groups.

* 195, sitting, World Nations Heads: (kings, presidents, whatever title)
... Primarily in the group VOID of Religious Beliefs
... Busy themselves:
... By ALL means; to REMAIN seated;
... AGREEING; By ALL means Total Dictatorship over the Whole World.


Prophetic and in FULL View before our eyes....IF one IS Watching.
Remember Jesus’ instruction?

Mark 14:
[34] And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.

[37] And he cometh, and findeth them sleeping, and saith unto Peter, Simon, sleepest thou? couldest not thou watch one hour?

[38] Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak.

[39] And again he went away, and prayed, and spake the same words.
[40] And when he returned, he found them asleep again, (for their eyes were heavy,) neither wist they what to answer him.

[41] And he cometh the third time and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: it is enough, the hour is come; behold, the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.

Watch warning....ignored
Watch warning....ignored
Watch warning....oops ignored...too late

MANY People are NOT WATCHING what Nations heads are planning, plotting, doing. MANY ARE merrily following along.
 

Taken

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Once Saved Always Saved?

Yes.

IF, you ARE Saved...you CAN get on about SERVING the Lord.

IF, you ARE NOT Saved...you BEST keep a WATCH of what, how, when...World Government Heads shall Frighten you into SERVING Them, or Eliminate you.

Freewill folks! Get to getting!

Josh 24;

[15] And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Glory to God,
Taken
 
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Gregory

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Once Saved Always Saved?

Yes.

IF, you ARE Saved...you CAN get on about SERVING the Lord.

IF, you ARE NOT Saved...you BEST keep a WATCH of what, how, when...World Government Heads shall Frighten you into SERVING Them, or Eliminate you.
,
Freewill folks! Get to getting!

Josh 24;

[15] And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Glory to God,
Taken
So you can tell if one is saved? If they are willing to serve the Lord (doing good works for the Lord), then we can determine that they are saved, right?

If they are unwilling to serve the Lord, then if they thought they were saved, they really weren't, right?
 

Gregory

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@Taken That Gethsemane passage is very searching......
John 3:16 is one of the great scriptures in the bible, but it is also one of the problems of the bible.

It reads:
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

This passage suggests that all you need to do to be saved is believe in God's only begotten Son (Jesus).
But there are many, many scriptures that tell us that this is NOT the only thing that a person needs to do to be saved. It is a conundrum.
 

Behold

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But there are many, many scriptures that tell us that this is NOT the only thing that a person needs to do to be saved. It is a conundrum.

The conundrum isn't the verse.
Its your misunderstanding of God's Grace.

See, when a person becomes controlled by the deception that salvation, and going to heaven, is your responsibility, = then you have just Ripped Christ off the Cross, and hung yourself up on the nails of your own self righteousness.
Thats a fact.

Listen, just read one verse and believe it.
Jesus says....>"the only way to the Father is by me". John 14:6
How do you know that is true?
Because Christ hung on the Cross and DIED< to prove it. And He was resurrected which seals it.

"Behold, are you saying that the only way i can go to heaven, is if CHRIST GETS ME THERE"......"and no other reason".
Yes.
That is what Christ just told you.

I want to show you a vision, READERS...

Look closely...

You are standing in front of Christ, who is dying on the Cross, for you.
He is looking into your eyes..
Blood is everywhere,.....its dripping off His hands, and in fact, you are standing in it.
Now, look past Jesus.....into the clear blue sky... See HEAVEN? God is just on the other Side.
Now, do you want to go there when you die, or before?
Do you want to go there, when you die, or before?
Yes?
Are you sure?
Then you go through JESUS who is in front of you, as His Blood and His soon Death, is the only WAY THERE.

See it?
Believe it.
He's dying in front of you to prove it.
Believe it and He will take you there. !!
 

Gregory

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The conundrum isn't the verse.
Its your misunderstanding of God's Grace.

See, when a person becomes controlled by the deception that salvation, and going to heaven, is your responsibility, = then you have just Ripped Christ off the Cross, and hung yourself up on the nails of your own self righteousness.
Thats a fact.

Listen, just read one verse and believe it.
Jesus says....>"the only way to the Father is by me". John 14:6
How do you know that is true?
Because Christ hung on the Cross and DIED< to prove it. And He was resurrected which seals it.

"Behold, are you saying that the only way i can go to heaven, is if CHRIST GETS ME THERE"......"and no other reason".
Yes.
That is what Christ just told you.

I want to show you a vision, READERS...

Look closely...

You are standing in front of Christ, who is dying on the Cross, for you.
He is looking into your eyes..
Blood is everywhere,.....its dripping off His hands, and in fact, you are standing in it.
Now, look past Jesus.....into the clear blue sky... See HEAVEN? God is just on the other Side.
Now, do you want to go there when you die, or before?
Do you want to go there, when you die, or before?
Yes?
Are you sure?
Then you go through JESUS who is in front of you, as His Blood and His soon Death, is the only WAY THERE.

See it?
Believe it.
He's dying in front of you to prove it.
Believe it and He will take you there. !!
The conundrum is not my misunderstanding of God's grace, it is my misunderstanding of all of God's word. The conundrum is everyone's misunderstanding of all of God's word. Not just 1 passage, but of many, many passages.

Why do you think there are thousands of Christian churches all preaching different doctrines about Jesus? Why do you think even on this Christian chat board there are numerous beliefs about how we are saved?
Just start at 1 and go through the 122 pages of confusing arguments about how to be saved.

It is a conundrum all the same.
 

Behold

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The conundrum is not my misunderstanding of God's grace, it is my misunderstanding of all of God's word.

Let me help you.

Let me give you a revelation.

Look at this verse.... Hebrews 13:9

This verse is telling you that you must establish your HEART, (belief system), in GOD's GRACE.
God's Grace, is Jesus on the Cross, which is God's everlasting Mercy for you.

Lets say you are in my class., and its the first day.
You raise your hand... "how is it that the bible can be so confusing".

A.) Because you must always study it, through the eyes of God's Grace.

This means that you have to understand the Cross of Christ, deeply, as "the Gift of Salvation", and in this understanding, you approach the New Testament verses.
That is Hebrews 13:9.

And that verse says, that if you DONT, you will be led astray by doctrines of devils/demons, and you'll end up in a heretic's cult, thinking you are being taught Truth and then when you hear THE TRUTH, you'll think its not.
 

farouk

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John 3:16 is one of the great scriptures in the bible, but it is also one of the problems of the bible.

It reads:
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

This passage suggests that all you need to do to be saved is believe in God's only begotten Son (Jesus).
But there are many, many scriptures that tell us that this is NOT the only thing that a person needs to do to be saved. It is a conundrum.
Simple faith by grace is the key (Ephesians 2.8-9).
 
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Taken

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So you can tell if one is saved?

I can presume, guess, by what individuals claim, conversation, etc..

If they are willing to serve the Lord (doing good works for the Lord), then we can determine that they are saved, right?

People that believe (but are not saved) can do good works for the Lord, so no, that does not mean saved.

If they are unwilling to serve the Lord, then if they thought they were saved, they really weren't, right?

No.
Difference between Believing and Conversion is:
A Believer can at any time STOP Believing.
...^ He continues Believing By his own will power.
...^ He may or may not Become Sav-ed after bodily death.
...^ Depends on IF he endured believing ‘till his death day.

A Converted man can NOT ever STOP Believing.
...^ He is Kept in Belief By Gods Power IN him, ie (he “IN” Christ, Christ “IN” him).
... He is Sav-ed because, He gave his body, Crucified with Jesus.

Salvation is given for Belief, and the Service of Giving their Body unto death for the Lord.
The Day they give their body unto death...is the day they are saved.

* Crucified with Christ Jesus...is the option for Salvation, Before the Great Trib.(then door closed)...They Bride of Christ. Christ’s Church.
* Physical Death...martyrdom..is the option for Salvation, During the Great Trib. (Then IF Saved, (as in OT), or (as in during the Trib) they guests at the marriage supper).

Service unto the Lord, IS becoming Converted, willingly Laying down ones bodily life unto Death For The Lord.
(Remember Jesus willingly laying down His bodily life God desires He do?)

Works for the Lord is sharing the Lords Word with others.
Works for the Lord is giving God credit for your blessings.
Works for the Lord is aiding others, In the Lords Name.
Works are rewarded after resurrection.
They are called “stored treasures in Heaven”.
 

michaelvpardo

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Free will is a myth. We don't choose who and what we are, but we can pretend to be what we aren't.
God is either sovereign or He isn't and a sovereign God does all things according to His will.
 
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quietthinker

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Free will is a myth. We don't choose who and what we are, but we can pretend to be what we aren't.
God is either sovereign or He isn't and a sovereign God does all things according to His will.
A sovereign man does things according to his will, ie he forces to get his own way. Love however does not force....ever, otherwise it is not love. Love is vulnerable to exploitation.....it holds no record of wrongs.
Jesus shows us how that works.....he gives his life and blesses those who murder him.....and he never changes!
 
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michaelvpardo

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A sovereign man does things according to his will, ie he forces to get his own way. Love however does not force....ever, otherwise it is not love. Love is vulnerable to exploitation.....it holds no record of wrongs.
Jesus shows us how that works.....he gives his life and blesses those who murder him.....and he never changes!
Every man who sins is a slave to sin, and everyone sins.
"Can the Leopard change his spots?"
Jesus didn't live and die to simply set an example, but to liberate us from the power of sin and death.

5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:5-11

We all have choices, but the choices of a slave are limited to our circumstances and by our nature. The second birth frees our nature to serve righteousness.

34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed. John 8:34-36

2For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. 2 Corinthians 5:2-5

23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Romans 8:23-25

The folks that think they've "arrived" haven't even left the gate yet.
 
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robert derrick

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What would you say of the teaching, that Christians are no more condemned for sinning, even if we are sinning and doing a work of the flesh?


But doesn’t salvation require the cooperation of the individual? Yes.

True. It's called doing our part in the body of Christ, that we may have part in the first resurrection of the church. Once He forgives us of past sins and makes us righteous and clean of heart and spirit, our part is doing His righteousness and not return to sinning again.

" This does not mean that God requires perfect works- - Paul shows that we are not capable of that. (Romans 3:20; 2:16, 3:11)

There is no need for you to insert an anti-perfectionism clause and qualifier, into the doctrine of being justified by works of faith.

Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

Paul was only speaking of them being double hearted toward Christ in Romans 7.

A good work is a perfect work, when it is from a pure and perfect heart toward Jesus.

You are confusing being blameless in spirit, soul, and body with Jesus now, and being perfected in mind and body at His appearing.

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.


"Each of Christ’s followers are also to have their obedience proved. We are to search our minds and hearts to see that they are kept in a proper attitude of devotion. The Apostle John said: "Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward." - - 2 John 8

True, it's called keeping our heart pure and our spirit clean with Jesus, that our lives may also prove His will in righteousness and true holiness.

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

" Some will be "overcharged with the cares of this life." Some will carelessly build with "wood, hay and stubble" rather than "gold, silver, and precious stones." (1 Corinthians 3:15) But if their hearts are loyal, God will still care for these. "If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." (1 Corinthians 3:12) For some this will mean deliverance "unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." - - 1 Corinthians 5:5

You are confusing the difference between sinning in works of the flesh, and errors in ministry. There's reward in heaven for good ministry only, but there is no heaven for doing works of the flesh unto the end.

Anyone known as a brother that is also a fornicator like Esau, are to ostracized to Satan's crown, in order to keep such filthy flesh from corrupting the spirit of the assembly, and also possibly to compel repentance by being isolated from the faithful.

"Some will fall.

True, some will fall and rise again by repentance, and some will fall away without repenting. It is by failing to do our part, so as to be assured of not falling away.

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.


This of course is the part of our responsibility you speak of, which part is denied some Christians to do, because it is taught as heresy against the cross of Jesus. Resisting the devil and taking up our cross as Jesus did, is our part to die to sinning. That is rejected by self-justifying Christians as saving ourselves by righteous works of our own. They must also then teach how falling has nothing to do with being saved.

"The condition of heart that would completely turn from God after having believed and received of the Holy Spirit, would make future repentance impossible. Read carefully Paul’s words in Hebrews 6:4- 6:"

The real danger to the church is not so much them that just want to return to their old life of sinning, but is the doctrinal lies that destroy the faith of Christians, such as teaching full repentance from dead works is not possible, and so not necessary to obtain eternal salvation. They teach such righteousness on earth as unattainable perfectionism, that only comes in the resurrection of the body. And so, they say they hope for it at death, while refusing to do it unto death.

And those that believe such lies therefore agree it is impossible to fully repent, and so don't even seek to.

It's the doing good and doing evil of unconditionally saved Christianity, whereby we are forever and always saved by believing it alone.

" True, none of the distresses which he mentions there can separate us- - but we can separate ourselves by an attitude of faithlessness and carelessness leading to heart disloyalty and rebellion.

Exactly. So long as we continue to hold His hand and Head faithfully with singleness of heart and body, He will continue to hold ours, but if we yank our hand free to go off for more flesh time with the devil, then He certainly lets us go do what we want more than fellowshipping and supping with Him.

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?


"If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?" (Matthew 10:25)

Jesus was of course speaking of the unrighteous Jews of His day, and the unrighteous Christians of today, who hate the preaching of doing His righteousness as He does, because it goes against their doctrine and conscience of being unconditionally saved, whether doing righteousness with Jesus or unrighteousness with the devil.

Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

Afterall, it was the unbelieving Romans from Pilate down, that at least acknowledge His righteousness when they see it:

Now when the centurion saw what was done, he glorified God, saying, Certainly this was a righteous man.

Love for the Lord, and appreciation of the great price that secures our redemption, will inspire our devotion. Only such love will hold fast to the promise, "Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10) BUT, "Hold fast that which thou hast, that no man take thy crown ..."- Revelation 3:11

True. It's called being best friends with Jesus, which needs no law against betraying Him for doing works of the devil. It's the same for a marriage made in heaven by love from faithful hearts, where there is no need for a law against adultery.

The law of Christ is only to judge them transgressing it, whether naming the name of Christ or not. But Jesus the Lawgiver and the Lamb is here to forgive whosoever will acknowledge their transgression from the heart and be forgiven for His name's sake.