Once Saved, Always Saved?

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PinSeeker

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God's grace is umerited...
Right...

...nothing we could or can do to receive it, except believe.
Well, we won't even do that, if left to ourselves. We believe because He gives this unmerited favor and extends His mercy and compassion... because He gives us to Jesus. Jesus Himself in John 10, has an exchange with His hearers there that should speak volumes to us:

"So the Jews gathered around Him and said to Him, 'How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.' Jesus answered them, 'I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name bear witness about Me, but you do not believe because you are not among My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.'" (John 10:24-30)​

If your doctrine is man- made, whether by your organization, the reformationist or ANY man and it doesn't match to the word of God, spiritually, then it is fodder, unsavoury salt, useless!
True. Absolutely. But the irony of this is that the Reformation was all about getting back to Scripture and away from the corruption of God's Word mainly inflicted by the Catholic Church.


We desperately need to get away from man's teachings and get back to God, the Holy Spirit, our teacher, and let him plant the WORD in our hearts !
Much agreed. This was the whole impetus for the Reformation just over 500 years ago.

Grace and peace to you, LAMB.
 
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mailmandan

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Sadly, I feel he will get a rude awakening when he tries to tell Jesus about all his works. And he is fatefully asked to depart..

these people that want to replace the grace of God with works need to become like the tax collector. and stop being like the pharisee

IMG_0794.JPG
 

Eternally Grateful

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Sadly, you and all those agree with you, are absolutely clueless as to what that passage is portraying.

I have painstakingly dissected and laid it out for you, piece by piece, but the scales on your eyes are so thick that not a single ray of light of the Truth gets through to you.

It's an arduous experience to observe as people walk in darkness, desperately reaching around for the obstacles in their path as they blindly struggle to navigate their lives.

What a sad sight to behold.

Matthew 7:21-23 says not a word about 'works', and doesn't even give the slightest implication that it's referring to 'works.'

"Works, works!!!"

The defensive scream of the blind leading the blind. "Works, Works! It's Works you're preaching! Works, I tell ya!!"

The last go-to, back-up position of the vipers that inhabit every place of Bible discussion; be it the fallen churches or the virtual universe of the Christian Chat Forums. It's always the same.

Very few can hear the Truth today; ... very, very few.
I usually do not give you the time of day. But since you adressed me.

All you do is constantly puff yourself up while tearing others down.

Matt 7, people are speaking of their WORKS (casting out demons is a WORK, Prophesying is a WORK, done many wonders is effect is saying have we not done many WORKS in your name.

for a person who is found innocent on judgment day, they will not need to boast of their works as you and these people do.. They will fall and say they are not worthy.

Keep pumping your chest my friend.. Your the one who will pay for it. Not us.

God resists the proud, but gives mercy to the humble

I will be as the tax collector. You want to judge me for that, feel free. You have no bearing on my eternity. I do not answer to you.
 
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L.A.M.B.

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Believing (faith) is a gift. Ephesians 2:8

Obedience is a condition; and it must be met.

The Spirit will not enter somebody who does not obey at a minimum. John 14:21-23

There are conditions to God's promises, just as there were throughout the entire Bible; and there are conditions to Salvation.

To believe that one can declare belief, and profess Christianity, and live the rest of their life just as they please is the most watered down version of the Truth of Scripture that has ever been perpetuated in the history of this world. God expects things of His children. Respect (fear) and obedience is prerequisite.

All those who believe, and live, otherwise will be turned away just as the 'Many' believers who will cry 'Lord, Lord' when they encounter Christ; and will be utterly shocked when they are directed to join the goats for their working of iniquity (disobedience to the Commandments). Matthew 7:21-23


Rms.12:3
For I say, through the GRACE GIVEN UNTO ME, to EVERY man that is among you, NOT to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly ACCORDING AS GOD HATH DEALT ........TO EVERY MAN THIS MEASURE OF FAITH.
God has also prepared us to believe and receive salvation by his grace through the measure of faith he has given to all. He desires our worship and a relationship with ALL, so he prepared that gift to us. However it is OUR CHOICE to either accept or refuse the true gift of salvation, which is Jesus ! The ONLY condition to salvation is believing, exercising that faith !

2 Cor.10:13
But we will NOT boast of things with OUR MEASURE, but according to the MEASURE of the rule which God has distributed to us, A MEASURE to reach even unto you.
1 Cor.10: 15
Not boasting of things without OUR MEASURE, that is of other men's labours; but having HOPE, when YOUR FAITH IS INCREASED, that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly.

That measure of Faith/ Belief is yours ,is mine, it belongs to every man indivually , yet ANOTHER gift from God. This gift is to accomplish HIS WORK IN US ! As this happens and we walk in obedience then THAT MEASURE is increased and increased. Every work He accomplishes through our submission and obedience increases that MEASURE OF FAITH.

Rms.1:7
For therein is the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD revealed from faith to faith: as it is written,
THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.
 

GEN2REV

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I usually do not give you the time of day. But since you adressed me.

All you do is constantly puff yourself up while tearing others down.

Matt 7, people are speaking of their WORKS (casting out demons is a WORK, Prophesying is a WORK, done many wonders is effect is saying have we not done many WORKS in your name.

for a person who is found innocent on judgment day, they will not need to boast of their works as you and these people do.. They will fall and say they are not worthy.

Keep pumping your chest my friend.. Your the one who will pay for it. Not us.

God resists the proud, but gives mercy to the humble

I will be as the tax collector. You want to judge me for that, feel free. You have no bearing on my eternity. I do not answer to you.
You and your people are the majority, preacher.

I stand alone here.

Just as the Scriptures make plain about the True follower of Christ. We are scattered abroad across this world. We travel the lonely narrow road to salvation while a thousand fall at our side and ten thousand at our right hand, yet no harm comes near us. We watch, throughout our lives, as the wicked are rewarded for their evil deeds and ways.

As I've already mentioned, the casting out of devils cannot be, and is not, done by any but those who are with Christ. Jesus Himself declares that nobody who is of the devil ever casts out demons. Mark 16:17 Luke 11:17-20

Therefore the 'Many' in Matthew 7:21-23 are Christians. You, and your mischief (pack of rats) can wrestle the Scriptures til your face turns blue, but you cannot silence the Truth - and no man, nor king, has ever been able to destroy God's Word.

God deal with you as you deserve.
 
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Eternally Grateful

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You and your people are the majority, preacher.

I stand alone here.
You stand with 99 % of the worlds religions and are decieved to think otherwise. They all teach works.

But hey. I am done wasting my time. Far to many people have tried to show you the truth, all you do is attack them

Attack away..
 

GEN2REV

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You stand with 99 % of the worlds religions and are decieved to think otherwise. They all teach works.

But hey. I am done wasting my time. Far to many people have tried to show you the truth, all you do is attack them

Attack away..
And there we have it.

That's your go-to when you're being defeated with Scripture. You and Dan.

False accusations and "It's Works! It's Works!!"

Same ol', same ol'. No endurance to debate the Scriptures because you are both corrected endlessly - to which you 100% ignore the Scripture proof texts and turn the discussion into a personal disagreement.

Pathetic.
 

GEN2REV

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Rms.12:3
For I say, through the GRACE GIVEN UNTO ME, to EVERY man that is among you, NOT to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly ACCORDING AS GOD HATH DEALT ........TO EVERY MAN THIS MEASURE OF FAITH.
God has also prepared us to believe and receive salvation by his grace through the measure of faith he has given to all. He desires our worship and a relationship with ALL, so he prepared that gift to us. However it is OUR CHOICE to either accept or refuse the true gift of salvation, which is Jesus ! The ONLY condition to salvation is believing, exercising that faith !

2 Cor.10:13
But we will NOT boast of things with OUR MEASURE, but according to the MEASURE of the rule which God has distributed to us, A MEASURE to reach even unto you.
1 Cor.10: 15
Not boasting of things without OUR MEASURE, that is of other men's labours; but having HOPE, when YOUR FAITH IS INCREASED, that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly.

That measure of Faith/ Belief is yours ,is mine, it belongs to every man indivually , yet ANOTHER gift from God. This gift is to accomplish HIS WORK IN US ! As this happens and we walk in obedience then THAT MEASURE is increased and increased. Every work He accomplishes through our submission and obedience increases that MEASURE OF FAITH.

Rms.1:7
For therein is the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD revealed from faith to faith: as it is written,
THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.
No, my friend.

You are taking those verses out of context and misinterpreting them.

God does not give belief (faith) to every single person. That is why Jesus sends Apostles out to the world to tell the world about Him. Mark 16:15

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."
Mark 16:16

Yes, those He does give faith to are given a measure, a specific amount. And yes, that faith grows based on what that person does with it.

Agreed on those points.

Nobody can come to Christ unless God draws them to Him with the gift of faith.
John 6:44
Ephesians 2:8

And God desires that all come to the knowledge of the Truth (faith/belief), but they don't.
1 Timothy 2:4
 

ScottA

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And there we have it.

That's your go-to when you're being defeated with Scripture. You and Dan.

False accusations and "It's Works! It's Works!!"

Same ol', same ol'. No endurance to debate the Scriptures because you are both corrected endlessly - to which you 100% ignore the Scripture proof texts and turn the discussion into a personal disagreement.

Pathetic.
...But is is works:

Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
 

PinSeeker

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Believing (faith) is a gift. Ephesians 2:8
Absolutely. Except that God defines faith for us in Hebrews 11:1, that faith is His assurance of our salvation, our having been given to Jesus, and of eternal life in Jesus.

Obedience is a condition; and it must be met.
Yes and no. No in that God has mercy and compassion upon whom He will, and this is without condition regarding anything of man. But certainly we are absolutely responsible ~ required, though we still will fail from time to time ~ to obey after having been given this gift. But obedience itself without faith having been given, while possible, is worthless. This is what James is saying in chapter 2 of his epistle, that faith without works is a dead faith... not God-given faith and therefore not a living faith, faith unto life, at all.

The Spirit will not enter somebody who does not obey at a minimum. John 14:21-23
No, as Jesus tells Nicodemus, the Spirit is as the wind, coming and going as He wishes, and we do not know where He comes from or where He goes; so it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.

God expects things of His children.
Absolutely.

Respect (fear) and obedience is prerequisite.
Ah, not "prerequisite," but required response. And with the help of the Spirit, our Helper, we respond.

Grace and peace to you, G2R.
 

GEN2REV

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Absolutely. Except that God defines faith for us in Hebrews 11:1, that faith is His assurance of our salvation, our having been given to Jesus, and of eternal life in Jesus.
That's an acceptable point if you use a proper translation. The KJV translates it much, much differently.
"... faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

We hope for, and in, God; and He is unseen. That hope, that belief, is given to us by God. The translation you used doesn't follow Ephesians 2:8 at all.
obedience itself without faith having been given, while possible, is worthless.
I didn't say anything at all about obedience without faith.
This is what James is saying in chapter 2 of his epistle, that faith without works is a dead faith...
No, that's not even close to what James is saying. You are twisting things all out of recognition ... purposely.

You are claiming, without explaining/admitting it, that obedience is = to works. That is absolute nonsense, though I will say that it's exactly what your buddies were doing as well. E.G. and Dan.

You guys need to define 'works' because many of you are still brainwashed from Sundee Skewl about how bad it is to obey the Commandments and how it's Works Salvation when that couldn't be further from the Truth.

Works is good deeds, charitable deeds, kindnesses, etc. done under the premise/intent of earning your Salvation with God. THAT and obeying the 10 Commandments that God wrote IN STONE are not even remotely similar. Just as you admit, the Spirit assists us in obeying the Commandments; therefore it CANNOT be our own 'Works' to obey them since we can't do it without the Spirit.
the Spirit is as the wind, coming and going as He wishes, and we do not know where He comes from or where He goes;
Wrong. It is the wind being described there. The verse ends with "so is every one that is born of the Spirit." John 3:8 We know exactly where, and how, He comes from Jesus' own words in John 14:21-23; and the intention to obedience to the Commandments is required PRIOR to this happening, just exactly as Jesus declares there.
 

Eternally Grateful

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...But is is works:

Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
The workers can admit its works. if they do they would have to admit they are wrong..
 

L.A.M.B.

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May I say something..............
Lol, I'd rather ask forgiveness than ask permission !

Please clarify for me what you ppl are calling our works to earn salvation.

There is God's works through us that at our acceptance of the GIFT of salvation, he does.

One is to cover us at salvation in his Son's righteousness. Two is to cast our past sins that we confess away from him never to be remembered again. Three is to have the Holy Spirit take his abode in us, to dwell, to teach, comfort, talk to the Father about our infirmities.

God, Jesus works in us as an advocate to the Father making intersession for our needs, he paid our sin price, he bears our burdens, through him we can know the Father.

The Holy Ghosts works in us to bear HIS fruit.
He brings scripture to memory when needed for comfort, he teaches us by illuminating the word, he also speaks with God on our behalf.
He empowers! He appoints his gifts to those in Jesus bride,to preach,teach,helps,healings ect.
as he will.

We ARE COMMANDED to do these four things; love God with all our hearts,minds,souls and strength,love our neighbor as we love ourselves, love one another, that others may know we are His disciples, take up our cross daily and follow him.

Being obedient is NOT WORK, neither is believing or having faith, studying is NOT WORK for he told them to search the scriptures, praying is NOT WORK, he instructed us to ask,seek and knock, that we may have, for he is NOT slack concerning his promises.

IF ANY OF THE ABOVE IS MISSING IN YOUR LIFE, THEN I WOULD SEARCH MY SOUL, FOR TRULY SOMETHING IS AMISS !

God does not expect the impossible from us, he has made it possible to serve and worship him and him only.

We must be in the Fathers will for our life to have meaning. IF he has told you to do and you don't then you are walking in disobedience. We are NOT to sit down ,fold our hands, and wait for his return..........WE MUST BE ABOUT THE FATHERS BUSINESS,as Jesus was.
 
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amigo de christo

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May I say something..............
Lol, I'd rather ask forgiveness than ask permission !

Please clarify for me what you ppl are calling our works to earn salvation.

There is God's works through us that at our acceptance of the GIFT of salvation, he does.

One is to cover us at salvation in his Son's righteousness. Two is to cast our past sins that we confess away from him never to be remembered again. Three is to have the Holy Spirit take his abode in us, to dwell, to teach, comfort, talk to the Father about our infirmities.

God, Jesus works in us as an advocate to the Father making intersession for our needs, he paid our sin price, he bears our burdens, through him we can know the Father.

The Holy Ghosts works in us to bear HIS fruit.
He brings scripture to memory when needed for comfort, he teaches us by illuminating the word, he also speaks with God on our behalf.
He empowers! He appoints his gifts to those in Jesus bride,to preach,teach,helps,healings ect.
as he will.

We ARE COMMANDED to do these four things; love God with all our hearts,minds,souls and strength,love our neighbor as we love ourselves, love one another, that others may know we are His disciples, take up our cross daily and follow him.

Being obedient is NOT WORK, neither is believing or having faith, studying is NOT WORK for he told them to search the scriptures, praying is NOT WORK, he instructed us to ask,seek and knock, that we may have, for he is NOT slack concerning his promises.

IF ANY OF THE ABOVE IS MISSING IN YOUR LIFE, THEN I WOULD SEARCH MY SOUL, FOR TRULY SOMETHING IS AMISS !

God does not expect the impossible from us, he has made it possible to serve and worship him and him only.

We must be in the Fathers will for our life to have meaning. IF he has told you to do and you don't then you are walking in disobedience. We are NOT to sit down ,fold our hands, and wait for his return..........WE MUST BE ABOUT THE FATHERS BUSINESS,as Jesus was.
There is a dark work at work in the land . And i see many groups running right to its false solution .
We must be about the FATHERS BUSINESS . THE gosple must be sounded out and only more so than ever .
For a very deceptive gospel , which is no gospel is filling up many pews now .
And it seems all sides are running to it . We must learn our bibles well . Learn that JESUS
and be teaching all to observe , that means to DO all things HE taught .
I am seeing so another jesus fast taking over the churches . AND IT Knows how to decieve .
It speaks of love too , it speaks of unity , it speaks , but its unity , love , its jesus and its gospel CONTRADICT THE JESUS of said bible .
But very cleaver are its men and its father . AND that father dont get NO CAPTIAL F . For it is the dragon .
JESUS , the BIBLICAL ONE is under attack and this other jesus has filled the pews full .
If anyone is sitting in churches and hearing lets find common ground and unity , YOU better GET OUT .
The unity they preach has cast the truth aside for the sake of unity . The Love they preach
has made the ROAD to GOD VERY BROAD . And contradicts the LOVE OF GOD .
And its ON this SITE . Even those who still disagree are still being influenced by it and as time goes on
i see more and more giving up preaching sound doctrine , speaking truth and no longer even correcting
but rather are just finding ways to get along more and more . ITS Sucking the life out of all that enter into it .
If folks will not learn their bibles but had rather heed men , THEY AINT GONNA make it .
We cannot live by emotions , we cannot live by feelings , WE MUST LIVE BY EVERY WORD OF GOD .
That means OPEN BIBLES and start loving THAT TRUTH which is able to build one up and make one wise
unto salvation through FAITH IN THAT CHRIST . A temple has been erected within christendom .
A horrible thing has occured in the land , they preach another jesus , and the peoples seem to LOVE IT SO .
But what will one do in the end thereof . FOR a lie cannot save . What began even in the days of paul
and john , HAS MOREPHED HUGE . another jesus , another gospel is being sold and so few can see it for what it is .
 

PinSeeker

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That's an acceptable point if you use a proper translation.
It's acceptable, period. Because it is what it is.

The KJV translates it much, much differently.
"... faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

The wording is slightly different, but it is the same. You just read it, apparently, differently than it should be read. You're getting a bit tripped by the antiquated use of the words 'substance' and 'evidence.' They should be read as synonyms for, respectively, 'assurance' and 'conviction.' The close correlation between 'substance' and 'assurance' is a bit easier to see and understand than the correlation between 'evidence' and 'conviction,' but in both cases, it is given by the Spirit, so again, 'evidence' and 'conviction' are very closely correlated.

The rest:

The translation you used doesn't follow Ephesians 2:8 at all.
Oh, it absolutely does.

I didn't say anything at all about obedience without faith. No, that's not even close to what James is saying. You are twisting things all out of recognition ... purposely.
Well that's not what I said at all. You misread what I wrote, as seems to be a recurring pattern. I may still disagree with what you think James is actually saying, but I agree, at least, that what you say here is not what James is saying. :) So, you are twisting things I have said into something they were/are not, and whether that is purposeful or inadvertent is... unknown. :) But then again, it does seem to be a pattern, so it would seem to be purposeful.

Works is good deeds, charitable deeds, kindnesses, etc. done under the premise/intent of earning your Salvation with God.
Works done with that intent are filthy rags to the Lord. I think you need to go to Sundee Skewl (although, for sure, not all "Sundee Skewls" are equal). But that's Christianity 101, my friend.

And the rest... my goodness. John 3 and John 14 especially you "get" totally backwards. It's quite astounding.

Grace and peace to you.
 
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GEN2REV

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It's acceptable, period. Because it is what it is.


"... faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

The wording is slightly different, but it is the same. You just read it, apparently, differently than it should be read. You're getting a bit tripped by the antiquated use of the words 'substance' and 'evidence.' They should be read as synonyms for, respectively, 'assurance' and 'conviction.' The close correlation between 'substance' and 'assurance' is a bit easier to see and understand than the correlation between 'evidence' and 'conviction,' but in both cases, it is given by the Spirit, so again, 'evidence' and 'conviction' are very closely correlated.

The rest:


Oh, it absolutely does.


Well that's not what I said at all. You misread what I wrote, as seems to be a recurring pattern. I may still disagree with what you think James is actually saying, but I agree, at least, that what you say here is not what James is saying. :) So, you are twisting things I have said into something they were/are not, and whether that is purposeful or inadvertent is... unknown. :) But then again, it does seem to be a pattern, so it would seem to be purposeful.


Works done with that intent are filthy rags to the Lord. I think you need to go to Sundee Skewl (although, for sure, not all "Sundee Skewls" are equal). But that's Christianity 101, my friend.

And the rest... my goodness. John 3 and John 14 especially you "get" totally backwards. It's quite astounding.

Grace and peace to you.
And it's always the same rabbit trails with your kind.

You make claims in one post, then in the very next post, you back off of them, or completely deny having made the claims at all.

Obedience is not equal to works. Period.

No matter how many times, or ways, you try to make that case.
 

PinSeeker

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And it's always the same rabbit trails with your kind.
LOL! My "kind..." LOL!
giphy.gif


You make claims in one post, then in the very next post, you back off of them, or completely deny having made the claims at all.
No, you either misread what I say, or deliberately misrepresent it. And then you say this, which is such a terrible defense.

Obedience is not equal to works. Period.
Right. Never said that. I would actually say love is equal to works, really. More correctly, works is equal to love. Biblical works, which are the result of having received Christ and becoming indwelt by the Holy Spirit. So, serving God and others with and in agape love... these are the works honored by the Lord.

No matter how many times, or ways, you try to make that case.
Right, well, yet again, I didn't make the case you apparently think I made at all. You're actually the one creating those rabbit trails and chasing ghosts down them, I guess.

Grace and peace to you.
 
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L.A.M.B.

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This is soooooooooo wrong guys !

Do any KNOW another's heart ?

Can you see into each other's lives ?

Where is the FRUIT of the Spirit in you ?

Behaviour such as this is what the seekers, confused, downhearted, and unbelievers see when they just read what is written in here.

How do you know your little sticks and stones won't CAUSE someone to say it's not real, and commit suicide ?

If you can't be nice THEN BE SILIENT !!!!!!!!!