Well,
First Thessalonians 2:15-16, right? Judgment was placed upon those who hindered the preaching of the Gospel to the Gentiles. Obedience is not in view here, but rather their having attempted to thwart God's purposes, which cannot be done (Job 42:2). And God inflicted judgment upon them.
Well, I surely agree that it's not "baseless" at all, or "arbitrary." But what God's basis
is in making the choices He makes are... unknown to us, really, except in the sense that it is for His own glory, which is the basis for everything He does. And this is exactly what Paul says there in Romans 9, that, as I said, God is the molder and we are the molded, God is the potter and we are the clay. And the potter can do with the clay whatever He wants, whether making one for honorable use or another for dishonorable use. He desires to show His wrath and make known His power, therefore enduring with much patience the one made for dishonorable use who has been prepared for destruction. And by this, He makes known the riches of His glory for the one created for honorable use and prepared beforehand for glory ~ Gentile as well as Jew (
Romans 9:20-24).
Those Jews were vessels of wrath because they would not obey. Paul says they were lost for they would not obey the righteousness of God (Romans 10:3). So they were not lost/vessels of wrath due to a capricious, unconditional decree God made before the world began.
Roman 9:22 "
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:"
Furthermore, the verse says God is "long suffering" with those vessels of wrath. Peter and Paul agree that the long suffering of God
is salvation (2 Peter 3:15). Why would God be long suffering towards those disobedient Jews that they be saved if God already predetermined they be lost vessels of wrath? That creates a contradiction in the nature of God. Yet Paul's argument here being that the Jews could not accuse God of being unjust towards them in casting them off (Romans 11) when God was long patient with them that they obey and be saved. The verse is not saying God endured those He already predestined to be lost, such is an attack against the perfectly just nature of God.
Matthew 23:37 "
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"
If those Jews were predetermined before the world began to be lost vessels of wrath, then why was Jesus desiring they be saved under His wing? A contradiction. But if they were predetermined by God to be saved, then why did they stone and kill the prophets, reject Christ's salvation? More contradiction. The fact Jesus "would" but the Jews "would not" shows free will on part of the Jews in rejecting Christ, not due to a capricious, unconditional decree made for them by God before the world began.
Mark 10, the rich young ruler: if he were predetermined by God before the world began to be lost then why would he be coming to Christ seeking eternal life? How/why would he keep the law from his youth up if he were born lost, totally depraved unable to do what is right having no desire to be saved? Why would Jesus "love him" if God is supposed to "hate" those whom God predetermined to be lost as Esau? On the other hand if he were predetermined by God before the world began to be saved, then why did he turn away and reject the eternal life offered him by Christ? A contradiction. Obviously free will was involved not predetermined eternal decrees.
PinSeeker said:
Romans 9 is about God's sovereignty over His creation in matters regarding salvation and who His elect are and are not. It does not say that we do not make choices regarding the salvation of God, but it does say that it depends on the will of God and whether he extends mercy/compassion to the individual (as Jacob) or not (as Esau). Regarding Jacob and Esau individually, He made this decision "though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad... in order that His purpose of election might continue." As for conditions, the only condition He places on anyone is on Himself ~ His mercy, His compassion. As Paul says (Ephesians 1:3-14)
Romans 9 is not a discourse on Calvinism but Paul is disproving certain false beliefs the Jews held such as God had to choose them simply because they were descendents of Abraham. Paul uses Jacob and Esau to prove God does not have to base His choices/promises on physical descent hence Paul in Romans 9 is proving God was just and right in casting off elect people the Jews. The context is anti-Calvinistic in showing elect Jews being cast off and once non-elect Gentiles being grafted in.
God chose Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Israel to make a covenant of promise with, but the choice of Abraham and not Melchizedek did not mean automatic condemnation for Melchizedek or Ismael or Esau or Edom. The Gentiles were not of the chosen/elect to receive the covenant of promise, but that did not mean automatic condemnation for the Gentiles for God sent Jonah to the Gentiles in Nineveh so they could receive God's mercy (Jonah 3) Rahab was justified (James 2). Though the Jews were God's elect, most were lost while just a 'remnant' saved. Though all Jews were elect, this distinction between Jews that some were saved and other lost was due to personal free will choice of each individual Jew in either obeying God and be saved or disobey and be lost (Romans 9:32)...most Jews chose not to seek righteousness by faith. Hence Romans 9 is about salvation not being based upon physical descent but upon an obedient faith. No Calvinism to be found at all in Rom 9 but very anti-Calvinistic.
Ephesians 1:4-5 does not teach the Calvinistic idea of God unconditionally electing certain individuals before the world began to be saved. The Bible teaches
corporate election...God foreknew a group that would be called "Christian" and those who use their free will to choose to be in this group make up the elect. Paul in the context speaks of "us" and "we"..God chose "us" (those who become Christians) IN HIM. So God's chose was not capricious or unconditional but God chooses those who are conditionally "in Him" and it takes obedience to be in Christ (a Christian). The context says nothing about God foreknowing certain individuals to be elect unconditionally but says God foreknew certain traits this predestined group would possess...."holy, without blame and in Christ". And anyone who chooses to obey the gospel and become a Christian will then possess these traits. Nowhere in the NT is any individual ever said to have possessed the traits unconditionally, randomly while in disobedience to God's will. Therefore those who choose not to be in this foreknown group will justly be condemned for THEIR own choice and not for a choice God made for them against their will which would be unjust on God's part. Acts of the Apostles 10:34-25 God is not a respecter of person but any person in any nation can choose to become a Christian and be of the elect. Yet if God chooses for man which will be or not be of the elect then that akes God a respecter of person and God then is culpable for the faithless lost.
PinSeeker said:
And then:
(Ephesians 2:4-10)
How anyone can fail to conclude that man is responsible in any way for being granted salvation, or that receiving God's salvific grace or keeping it is unconditional on anything man may or may not do, is just... unfathomable. These conclusions are unavoidable and irrefutable. Thanks be to our great God.
Made us alive..those Ephesians who chose to obey the gospel in being water baptized are the ones made alive together with Christ, not done by a capricious decree of God for men thereby making God culpable for the lost. Salvation of those Ephesians involved God's grace and their faith and faith includes being baptized.
Eph 2:8-----------faith >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> saves
1 Pet 3:21-------baptism >>>>>>>>>>>>> saves
The "not of works" refer to works of merit for if one could keep the law perfectly one would earn his salvation and therefore could boast of his perfect law keeping. Yet works of merit and obedience to God in being baptized are two completely different things. Nowhere in the Bible is obedience to God ever said to be a work of merit one could boast about.
The fact God created man in His image with free will whereby man chooses for himself to be saved or lost, then God can justly condemn men for their own free will choices. What is 'unfathomable' is God predetermining men to do wickedness then God punishing those men for the wickedness God forced upon them them to commit.