Once Saved, Always Saved?

[Taken]

Well, if he wasn't born again, the he couldn't have lost it.

Salvation IS A GIFT…

The Lord PAID for the Gift… FOR Every man.

The Lord OFFERED the Gift…TO Every man.

The GIFT does not Vanish, Become Lost, If a man Refuses to Reach out and Take the Gift.

The Gift has a TIME stamp (so to speak), that a man MUST Accept the Gift… while he is Alive in his Flesh…

Don’t Take the Gift… you forfeit… YOU LOSE the opportunity TO Receive the Lords Gift….

In short, you have Lost your Gift.

No, you do NOT receive your Gift and Then “lose” your Gift.

Receiving the Gift IS GIVEN AFTER “Gods accounting of your Bodily Death.”

( it’s like the lottery, so to speak. ) You (pay), receive a ticket, you have all correct numbers, whoop, whoop, the prize is yours…
Is it?
Yes IF you collect the prize according to a time stamp.
No IF you fail to take the prize according to the time stamp.

Salvation IS Agreed to be yours Before your body dies.
Salvation is Given After the body dies.

No you don’t come bodily back to life so you can reject your Salvation Gift.

The Gift is Given ONCE.
The Gift IS “maintained” KEPT “constant / in effect”… by the Power of God…(not a mans power).

Once a man IS sav-ED he is forever Sav-ED.

Men do not Fall from Salvation…

But men who believe by their own power, Can stop believing, and “Fall from Faith…”

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Wrangler]

That's fine that you have little comprehension of logic and its application. You just can't escape its consequence.

Inference. Why would Jesus talk about burning branches in a fire that don't produce fruit if OSAS is Biblical?

@JustMe, perhaps this will help.



If one is using variants, it violates the logical construct, such as instead of M one uses M1 @ major premise and M2 for the minor premise.

In other words, you cannot use the word M in sense M1 at major premise but use sense M2 at minor premise AND have a conclusion that is actually logical. It has the form but not substance of reasonableness or being logical.

OR

The opposite, one cannot deny the logical conclusion because you denying M subsumes, M1 and M2. In this case, we’re talking about
M = sin, generally
M1 = sin whose sacrifice is covered by Jesus
M2 =sin whose sacrifice is NOT covered by Jesus

The OSAS crowd denies the existence of M2 on the grounds of ignoring Hebrews 10:26 and other verses.

 

[Taken]

That's fine that you have little comprehension of logic and its application. You just can't escape its consequence.

Inference. Why would Jesus talk about burning branches in a fire that don't produce fruit if OSAS is Biblical?

OSAS… in context…
Salvation is a Gift paid for by the Lord, Offered for men to Agree to Take His Gift…
( your know the part…. IF a man will (confess TO the Lord)…his True Heartful Belief.
Then shall the Lord …
Forgive the man for having Had Not believed,
The Lamb of God Baptizes that man with Gods Holy Spirit…
Soul IS Saved, Spirit Quickened…and shall receive his new glorified body… when call up… (Christs Church)… for the marriage Union… and from hence forth…where the Lord (Groom is) so also is His bride….
(Even when He returns for His 1,000 yr reign).


The Mans Actual Receiving of the Gift…
Is AFTER a mans Body is Accounted Dead…

* Crucified WITH Jesus’ Body…
Or
* physically mortally Dead…

Dead Bodys know, think, feel nothing.

The Salvation Gift… ( crucified with Jesus” is Kept constant by the Power of God IN that man (Christ / the power of God.)
And that man, “lives IN CHRIST JESUS risen body”… that man called “IN Christ.”

That man is ONCE and forever accounted… Whole…body, soul, spirit….
( ie. A new creature).
Already Prepared, to be redeemed, claimed, called up (Christs Bride) to meet Her groom in the Grooms Fathers kingdom… Lower heavens / clouds…

The Heavens are Gods Kingdom / Throne.
(And FYI… Gods estate, where no man (but the Son has been… IS Heaven Above the Heaven(S]…( heavens …3 )
3, Upper heaven… saved souls
2, Mid heavens… holy angels estate (we can see, at night by representation of the stars)
1, Lower heavens… clouds (we can see, hike, airplane, thin air, not mans habitat, but a glimpse we can experience.

Noah’s Ark rose up into the clouds, lower heavens (during first great Trib).

Moses went up the mountain, to get the Ten Commandments…he was in the clouds… and God even said to Moses… to remove his shoes… because he was standing on Holy ground.

Branches are … “off shoots” of tree bases… like offsprings of a mans children…
The man / mother / parents can be Faithful, IN Christ… and while a babe in the fathers household, be raised in Gods Word…
And Can mature, move to his own home. And end up rejecting Christ / God…
And shall be Cut off… not saved.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

School bus here we come! John Calvin famously declared, "If he [Servetus] comes [to Geneva], I shall never permit him to depart alive, provided my authority be of any avail,"

Yep, John Calvin was a murderer and thought Jesus and His Apostles taught that it's all good to murder someone if they disagree with your heretical doctrine.

Later in life Calvin was unrepentant as his writings reveal he would be willing to murder Servetus all over again and had no regrets.

So, their boy John Calvin is being tortured in hell right now and just just because he was a murderer but also because he taught heresy which according to God's Word is one of the works of the flesh that cause some to not be accepted by the Lord not being allowed entry in to God's Kingdom.

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

BTW “ARE YOU Saved”?

IF “yes”… How many times?

Saved one time but IF one sins, they must confess and forsake their sin to be cleansed on the corruption that happens to anybody that sows to the flesh (sins)

Proverbs 28:13
He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

No, you do NOT receive your Gift and Then “lose” your Gift.

No, some turn away from the Lord rejecting His gift and God says we reap what we sow which means they become corrupt and He must forsake them because they forsook Him:

2 Timothy 2:12
If we deny Him, He also will deny us

The false OSAS teachers claim one does not have to repent of their sins and confess their sins to come back in to right standing with the Lord after they sinned after having been born again and yes all have commuted some sins after having been born again

2 Peter 2:20
For if after they have escaped the pollution of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

In other words they are WORSE off than they were before having been born again if they turn away from the Lord and commit sin. When a Christian sins, they have to choose to turn away from the Lord to go to the sin. They know they are doing wrong and do it anyway.

Hebrews 10:28-31
He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Only those led by the Spirit are the sons of God (Romans 8:14)

Men do not Fall from Salvation…

False Statements like this is exactly why so many believe they can continue living in sin and still be saved.

This is the primary way OSAS deceives people in to going to hell.

Salvation is a gift, and so it the free will each person has as a result of the Lord creating man in His Own Image

Once a person becomes a Christian, because of free will and because we reap what we sow, if that person turns away from the Lord to do sin, then the Lord must allow them to turn away

If you sow to the flesh you shall reap corruption (see Gal 6:7,8) unless you forsake and confess your sins to be cleansed of all unrighteousness (see Proverbs 28:13 and 1 John 1:9)

But men who believe by their own power, Can stop believing, and “Fall from Faith…”

False talking point from the false teachers as they deny the whole counsel of God believing God's warnings to Christians are lies where they actually think God lies sometimes in His Word.

That man is ONCE and forever accounted… Whole…body, soul, spirit…

Only applicable to those who abide in Christ bearing good fruit enduring unto the ends of their lives abiding in Christ which they do so by submitting themselves to the leading of the Holy Spirit based on God's Word their entire lives

False Statements like this is exactly why so many believe they can continue living in sin and still be saved.

 

[rockytopva]

I do not believe John Calvin's ways did his health skirmishes a whole lot of good!

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

I do not believe John Calvin's ways did his health skirmishes a whole lot of good!

Yeah being a murderer and a false teacher caused him to be tormented in hell for all eternity which is very UNhealthy

 

[amigo de christo]

I do not believe John Calvin's ways did his health skirmishes a whole lot of good!

To be honest , and it does bring me sadness for him , I dont beleive CALVIN did chrisanity ANY GOOD .
But dont think i warn just against him .
WE had better flee and flee fast anything an d anyone connected to in any way ECUMENICIALISM
and its interfaith and do it right now and dont look back .
THE DELUSION is on the rise and it will take all not in the lambs book of life
to the false love god who has come in its own name to unify them all as one
RIGHT UNDER it , its anti christ , the beast and all that is of darkness .

 

[amigo de christo]

and speaking of ecumenicalism and its intefaith of anti christ ,
many are being TAKEN right into its web of delusion .

 

[PinSeeker]

It's a bigger concern when one starts his analysis with going beyond the simplicity of God's word, adding words, changing words, omitting words.

Right, I agree. But if you're accusing me of that ~ which you are ~ that's a problem of yours and yours only, because I'm certainly not doing that.

Somehow "incorruptible" gets morphed into "corruptible." "Kept by the power of God" gets changed into "kept by works."

Not sure what you're referring to here. Are you making stuff up? Or just throwing out examples? It is possible to use our own words to explain things that are in God's Word and not be wrong or contradicting it in any way, and to be in perfect harmony with it. Again, I've "morphed" or "changed" nothing, or "added," or "omitted," in the sense that you are propagating. I am Sola Scriptura guy after all... <smile> ...you know, that God's Word is the sole infallible source of authority for Christian faith and practice...

Were you part of Israel when they disobeyed in the wilderness? No.

Well, not literally, of course, because hadn't been born yet. But having been made a child of the promise and thus a child of God, the history of the God's Israel is my history as much now as any who have ever been in Christ or ever will be. "Grafted in..." So many soft-pedal, or short-change that and make it out to mean far, far less than it does... But yes, we are, through Isaac, the true offspring of Abraham, who lived before the Israelites were wandering in the wilderness, you know... Abraham is my father, and yours, too, I hope...

Those are the we and the us in Hebrews.

What I said, yes. Not "those," but all these, including we who are in Christ today.

Hebrews was written to Jews who were born again...

Right, as I said... but again, not just ethnic Jews but true Jews, Jews inwardly, circumcision of the heart by the Spirit, whose praise is not from man but from God and therefore members of God's Israel, which now ~ since the advent of Jesus and his life, crucifixion, and resurrection ~ includes people of every tongue, tribe, and nation. This is all of Israel as Paul says in Romans 11:26, at any particular time all of God's elect. The day is coming when that number ~ an innumerable multitude of folks ~ will be complete. And then... Jesus will return, defeat Satan once and for all, and usher in the New Heaven and New Earth.

...but were being pressured to return to the law...

Well, many of them were still placing themselves under the law of Moses either rather than or in addition to the law of Christ. As I said.

...like the Galatians.

Yes.

They understood they were born again by the spirit, but the thought they would be made perfect by works.

Ah, well, works are a very important part of the equation. This gets us back to a conversation I think we may have had before: there is a sense in which we have been saved (we have been born again of the Spirit), and simultaneously a sense in which we are being saved (are being sanctified and made more and more like Jesus, and that work will be done in each of us when we are glorified, which is yet future... at the day of Christ. It is the latter sense in which our works are an important part of the equation. We will all be judged according to what we have done. This is the responsibility and accountability we have now... that "anti-OSASers" think we who know our eternal salvation is secure and assured (which actually is what faith is... "the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen"). Here's the thing that so many here cannot bring themselves to understand for some reason, that because of the Holy Spirit's ongoing work in us now, we will do these works honored by God... because we are in Christ Jesus. It is in this way that we do good works and persevere to the end. We do these things, Rich, freely and willingly, but still, ultimately, the glory belongs to God and God alone.

Grace and peace to you, Rich.

 

[PinSeeker]

Well, if he wasn't born again, the he couldn't have lost it. Only those born again of incorruptible seed have incorruptible seed.

Hmmm. Just curious, Rich, but are you insinuating here that there are some who are born again of incorruptible seed and some who are born again of corruptible seed?

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

... John Calvin was a murderer ...

John Calvin was not a murderer, and in fact did all he could to keep Michael Servetus from being burned at the stake as he was by the state. He did denounce Servetus for heresy, but heresy was a state crime in that day. The full culpability of Calvin in the execution has been the subject of historical debate ever since.

...thought Jesus and His Apostles taught that it's all good to murder someone if they disagree with your heretical doctrine.

He absolutely did not. But he did teach ~ as Paul explicitly said ~ that everyone should be subject to the governing authorities (Romans 13:2). John Calvin was not a governing authority, and never claimed to be. The governing authorities burned Servetus at the stake.

Later in life Calvin was unrepentant as his writings reveal he would be willing to murder Servetus all over again and had no regrets.

Calvin was subject to those governing authorities, too. For him recant his accusation against Servetus would have been to claim Servetus was correct in his position and thereby refute God's Word, which none of us should be willing to do, therefore having no regrets regarding upholding God's Word as true.

...he taught heresy...

That's just your opinion, which, in this very thread has been thoroughly debunked, repeatedly.

...some turn away from the Lord rejecting His gift...

They do, but because they have an unbelieving heart ~ this is Hebrews 3:12 ~ which is to say they were never Christians. The unbelieving heart is what leads people to fall away.

In other words they are WORSE off than they were before having been born again...

They were not born again of the Spirit of God, else they would have had a believing heart... and not fallen away.

"Men do not Fall from Salvation…" False Statements like this is exactly why so many believe they can continue living in sin and still be saved.

If one has been born again of the Spirit, he or she will not fall from salvation, because their will is then to do the will of God their Father (rather than the devil), and God will keep us from stumbling (Jude 24). If God begins this good work of salvation in us, He will bring it to completion at the day of Christ (Philippians 1:6). Jesus is the author and finisher/perfector of our faith (Hebrews 12:2).

No one here believes ~ no one, and surely not John Calvin or any of the other Reformers believed~ we could continue living in sin and still be saved. That is a grotesque mischaracterization of what we believe and of what John Calvin or any of the other Reformers taught... precisely the opposite, really. Again, if one is born again of the Spirit, then he or she is OF GOD, and will not continue living in sin.

You're an... interesting... person, Big Boy. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Rich R]

Hmmm. Just curious, Rich, but are you insinuating here that there are some who are born again of incorruptible seed and some who are born again of corruptible seed?

Grace and peace to you.

1Pet 1:23,

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.​

​

All born again folks are born again by incorruptible seed. All people, including born again folks, are born into this world by their earthly father's seed, which seed is corruptible, hence the body at some point dies. The incorruptible seed is what guarantees eternal life with God and Jesus in the coming kingdom.

The incorruptible seed was not available until Jesus died and rose. Abraham, Moses, David, etc. did not have incorruptible seed.

Salvation by incorruptible is for Christians. Israel will be saved, but by a different mechanism which will occur when Jesus comes back. That's why I say God has different plans for Israel and for the church. Both will end up in the same paradise, but they'll get by different ways.
For many reasons, we will have a different, arguably better position in the new earth. Of course, nobody will be anywhere close to disappointed.

All of that gets lost when the church is inserted into Israel's plan. The church is not the "true Israel." The church is the church and Israel is Israel.

Of course, the church is made up of both Jew and Gentile, but once born again, they are no longer a Jew nor a Gentile.

Gal 3:28,

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.​

​

Obviously there are still Gentiles. Likewise for Israel. So these days we have, Jew, Gentile, and the church of Christ. So being composed of Jew and Gentile is hardly the same as saying the church replaced Israel.

 

[Wrangler]

Came across a couple of verses that further undermine OSAS.
1 Tim 5:8
Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

How can someone who is saved, with incorruptible seed deny the faith? Having this capacity is to deny Christ. How can someone who knew Christ, them deny him be saved? How is their condition different from one who never came to Christ?

Romans 6:12
Do not let sin control the way you live; do not give in to sinful desires.

How can someone who is saved, with incorruptible seed, let sin control their life?

In both cases, we see choice is still a viable option. It makes no sense to recognize Jesus sacrifice covers sin to be applied as a license to sin.

 

[PinSeeker]

All born again folks are born again by incorruptible seed. All people, including born again folks, are born into this world by their earthly father's seed, which seed is corruptible, hence the body at some point dies. The incorruptible seed is what guarantees eternal life with God and Jesus in the coming kingdom.

Right. Good. Just checkin'... <smile>

The incorruptible seed was not available until Jesus died and rose.

Oh, it was. Strongly disagree. Jesus is eternal. <smile> That's from eternity to eternity. And the Israelites of old, in Old Testament times, had the prophets, who God spoke through in those days (Hebrews 1:1), to point them to the Savior to come. The incorruptible seed, yes; Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (who was renamed Israel) had it, Moses had it, David... and on and on... This is one of the things we should see in the genealogies of Christ in Matthew 1 and Luke 3...

Salvation by incorruptible is for Christians. Israel will be saved, but by a different mechanism which will occur when Jesus comes back.

The author of Hebrews, in chapter 11, refutes that without question.

That's why I say God has different plans for Israel and for the church.

Well, another reason, besides what I said earlier. So, a double dose of error... <smile> ...actually one leading to the other, I guess...

Both will end up in the same paradise, but they'll get by different ways.

There is no Plan B. To put it very succinctly, we are all one in Christ Jesus. As Paul says in Galatians 3 (cited earlier), "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise." This was always and will always be true of God's Israel, His household.

The church is the church and Israel is Israel.

Well, right, But Israel is the Church, and the Church is Israel. We are one in Christ. Again, the Church is the New Testament expression of Israel, not in the sense that it has displaced or replaced anyone, as God's people, but that we of the New Testament Church are included ~ grafted in, so one, with the born-again Israelites of old as God's chosen people.

Of course, the church is made up of both Jew and Gentile...

Absolutely.

once born again, they are no longer a Jew nor a Gentile.

Once born again, regardless of ethnicity, one is a true Jew of God. Romans 2:29, again: "a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God." So, in this world, if they are born again, he may be, ethnically speaking, a Jew or a Gentile. But He is also ~ and far, far more importantly, in the eternal sense ~ a true Jew of God. And that's all that will matter the world to come ~ in eternity.

Gal 3:28,

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.​

We are all one in Christ Jesus. Absolutely. How ironic that you would cite the same passage as I... and refute yourself in so doing...

Obviously there are still Gentiles. Likewise for Israel.

This is a conflation. A conflation, because of who you think Israel is. God's Israel is not based on earthly ethnicity. Thus Paul's statement (cited before, of course) that "not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but 'Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.' This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring." (Romans 9:6-8).

So these days we have, Jew, Gentile, and the church of Christ.

Right, people of all ethnicities make up the Church of Christ Jesus. Ethnicity has no bearing on whether one is or is not in Christ. And it never did, even from the beginning. So, sure, as I've said many times... This can cover so many different Scriptural things, but God used ethnic Israel in Old Testament times to illustrate what really always was a much greater truth regarding His Israel.

So being composed of Jew and Gentile is hardly the same as saying the church replaced Israel.

As I have said numerous times, the Church has not replaced Israel... by any stretch of the imagination. The Church of Jesus Christ, which consists of all born-again believers in Christ, is now included in God's Israel. We are all one in Christ Jesus, if we are born again, because... well, as Jesus tells Nicodemus, "unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God... unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God" ~ John 3), from the beginning... Well... a little poem of sorts for you... <smile>

Ever since the events of Genesis three...
'Twas always thus, and thus will always be...

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Rich R]

Came across a couple of verses that further undermine OSAS.
1 Tim 5:8
Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

How can someone who is saved, with incorruptible seed deny the faith? Having this capacity is to deny Christ. How can someone who knew Christ, them deny him be saved? How is their condition different from one who never came to Christ?

When read as written without interjecting preconceived ideas, this verse says that such a person may deny Christ and may be in sad shape. What it does not say is that the incorruptible seed corrupts or that eternal life is not really eternal.

Romans 6:12
Do not let sin control the way you live; do not give in to sinful desires.

How can someone who is saved, with incorruptible seed, let sin control their life?

If you can't see how they might both be a reality, which would you do away with, incorruptible seed or sin controlling one's life?

The new birth by incorruptible seed does not affect flesh. The Galatians made the mistake of thinking it did (Gal 3:1-3). Too many Christians still don't understand that.

The devil possesses, but not God. God does not control a son or daughter. Like any son or daughter, they can do what they choose even if it disgraces their parents. They remain a son or daughter.

Rom 2:4,

Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?​

​

It's God's goodness and love that leads us to obey. Incredibly, and sadly, too many Christians apparently would use fear to control others. It's a disgrace!

In both cases, we see choice is still a viable option. It makes no sense to recognize Jesus sacrifice covers sin to be applied as a license to sin.

Why go immediately to saying someone thinks they have a license to sin? A well worn and thoughtless argument! It's not a license to sin. Can you not conceive of doing something motivated by sincerely wanting to please someone who loves you and gives the best thing He had for you?

God clearly wants us to imitate Jesus, but he won't force us. Nor will He un-son or un-daughter us.

Read about seed in Genesis 1. An apple seed produces and apple tree and the apple tree remains an apple tree for it's entire life. Of course that seed is corruptible, hence the tree will die at some point. Compare that to incorruptible seed and you'll be on the right path.

If someone truly believes they must perfect themselves, they are either full of intense fear all their lives, or they are as self righteous as the most committed Pharisee.

 

[Rich R]

Right. Good. Just checkin'... <smile>


Oh, it was. Strongly disagree. Jesus is eternal. <smile> That's from eternity to eternity. And the Israelites of old, in Old Testament times, had the prophets, who God spoke through in those days (Hebrews 1:1), to point them to the Savior to come. The incorruptible seed, yes; Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (who was renamed Israel) had it, Moses had it, David... and on and on... This is one of the things we should see in the genealogies of Christ in Matthew 1 and Luke 3...

Nicodemus, a Rabbi, would have understand the new birth. But when Jesus told him he had to be born again, he was completely perplexed (John 3:1-7). I can understand why Nicodemus would have been perplexed, but Christians ought to know better.

Heb 5:12,

For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.​

But assuming you are right, that Abraham was born again of incorruptible seed, what was the point of Jesus' death and resurrection? What changed?

 

[PinSeeker]

Nicodemus, a Rabbi, would have understand the new birth. But when Jesus told him he had to be born again, he was completely perplexed (John 3:1-7).

Uh, wait... what? He would have understood a thing, but didn't understand? That strikes me as funny, in a way... I mean, right, he very obviously didn't understand how a person could be born again... and completely missed what Jesus was saying. Yeah, "Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things?" So... I don't understand how you can possibly say (or think) that Nicodemus, Rabbi or not, even Jewish or not, "would have understood the new birth." At any rate, when Jesus says there, "unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God... unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God," there are obviously no exceptions; He was not limiting that to any ethnicity or group of ethnicities. It is all-inclusive of all humanity backward and forward in time. If you are insinuating otherwise... Well, I hope you're not. <smile>

But assuming you are right...

A good assumption... <smile>

...that Abraham was born again of incorruptible seed...

When we read, in Genesis 15:6, "(Abram) believed the Lord, and He counted it to him as righteousness," we should understand there that he had been born again and was of God.

As Jesus says in John 10:26-27... to a group of Jews, no less... "you do not believe because you are not among My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me."

Actually, we can even go back to Genesis 12:1-4, where God calls Abram: "Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you. And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” So Abram went, as the Lord had told him."

It is the Lord Who calls, and the Spirit who then, at the appointed time, works in the heart of the man/woman, and gives him/her new birth ~ thereby, putting it in God's words given to us through Ezekiel, giving you a new heart, and I will putting within us a new spirit, removing the heart of stone from our flesh and giving us a heart of flesh, even putting His Spirit within us, and thereby we are caused to walk in His statutes and are then careful to obey His rules. So then, we are His people and He is our God, and he has delivered ~ and simultaneously is delivering ~ us from all our uncleannesses. Here in Genesis 12:1-4 is that event for Abram (who of course was renamed Abraham in Genesis 17:5). Here, he was, in the words of Paul in Ephesians 2:, even when Abram was dead in his trespasses, made alive together with Christ⁠ ~ by grace saved⁠ ~ and raised up with Him and seated with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages He might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus... by grace saved through faith. and this not Abram's own doing but the gift of God. And we see this in Hebrews 11: , where the writer of Hebrews says, "By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God." We ~ all of us in Christ, together, Rich ~ are that city.

what was the point of Jesus' death and resurrection?

Oh my.

What changed?

Abraham's heart. And because of that, his will. As is the case for all of us who are born again of the Spirit. It is a radical change, a total about-face, actually.

Grace and peace to you, Rich.

 

[Wrangler]

When read as written without interjecting preconceived ideas, this verse says that such a person may deny Christ and may be in sad shape. What it does not say is that the incorruptible seed corrupts or that eternal life is not really eternal.

Nor does it have to say that, specifically, since the audience are those believers with the incorruptible seed.

When I tell my teenage daughter to be home at 9 PM, I don't have to include healthy, without damaging the car and call us if you ever have any trouble. Not every expression has to be comprehensive policy position.

 

[Wrangler]

If you can't see how they might both be a reality, which would you do away with, incorruptible seed or sin controlling one's life?

The new birth by incorruptible seed does not affect flesh.

I don't really understand your question but the 2nd sentence is Circular Reasoning - both your premise and your conclusion in denial of Hebrews 10:26 and may other verses.

Seems to me you are taking this 'incorruptible seed' too literally or too mystically. Yes, my wife can clean the kitchen AND it can get dirty again. Another way to look at it is the person ejects and rejects this 'incorruptible seed' In The Chosen, Judas has a last conversation with Jesus before he betrays him. Jesus says, "All I want is your heart. I had it once before. Now someone else has it." I know this is fiction but it is consistent with these verses.

The logical predicament you put yourself is is ex post facto; claiming no one ever came to Jesus TRULY because they later turned from him. It is Circular Reasoning.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

How can someone who is saved, with incorruptible seed deny the faith?

They have God given free will so they simply choose to ignore or otherwise turn away from the Lord.

John Calvin was not a murderer

Sure he was just like the Apostle Paul was a murderer before He got born again.

Both men directed others to murder so they are complicit and as such that is what made them a murderer

Paul repented and got saved while Calvin was pleased with his actions and refused to repent believing the "god" he served led him to call for people to be murdered if they did not agree with his heresy

Those that are followers of John Calvin are going to learn that He's not the Lord and Savior and they are guilty of idolatry as they put the false teachings of John Calvin above the teachings of the Lord in His Word.

There won't be any followers of John Calvin in God's Kingdom, only followers of the Lord Jesus Christ.

everyone should be subject to the governing authorities (Romans 13:2). John Calvin was not a governing authority, and never claimed to be. The governing authorities burned Servetus at the stake.

You're ignorant of Calvin's influence in Geneva - nothing happened unless he approved of it.

Calvinism and islam have this in common in that they mix religion and civil government.

Calvin was illegitimate and his influence was directed by the demons that possessed him.

That's just your opinion, which, in this very thread has been thoroughly debunked, repeatedly.

Yeah so demons using demonic teaching to support demonic doctrine

They do, but because they have an unbelieving heart

They had a good heart in the beginning and then they turned away because their good heart turned evil.

The Lord warns believers about this in His Word:

Hebrews 3:12
Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

They were not born again of the Spirit of God, else they would have had a believing heart... and not fallen away.

That's what the demons keep telling the gullible such as the calvinists

2 Peter 2:20
For if after they have escaped the pollution of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

2 Peter 2:20 is specifically speaking of those that "escaped the pollution of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ"

The only way to escape the pollution of the world is to be born again thru Jesus Christ and be translated from darkness in to the Kingdom of God's Dear Son the Lord speaks of in His Word (seeColossians 1:13-20)

Man the calvinists are getting slower and slower by the day. (dumber and dumber, more blind than ever before)

No one here believes ~ no one, and surely not John Calvin or any of the other Reformers believed~ we could continue living in sin and still be saved.

And yet all the false teachers continually go around telling Christians "it's not possible to lose their salvation" and people hear this heresy and believe they can continue living in sin and still be saved and so they continue living in sin.

The false teachers reject the warnings the Lord gives to Christians in His Word because they are being taught by demons

1 Timothy 4:1,2
Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron

*A person cannot depart from the faith is they were never in the faith begin with

2 Timothy 2:12
If we deny Him, He also will deny us

Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?