Only 2 Comings by Lord Jesus, Not 3

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101G

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Lets make it real simple . JESUS already came once . He fullfilled the law , and he took on the sins
He paid the price . so that all who do BELIEVE in HIM would be saved . But those who believe not
will be damned . AND HE Will come again the SECOND TIME .
If one misses that , ITS OVER and DONE . YA UNDER THE WRATH OF GOD .
this is what the "GREAT COMMISSION" is all about until his return.
Matthew 28:19 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"

this where many missed it at, they think that one have to be a "PREACHER", only he said "TEACH". well.... don't argue with 101G,

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101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
 
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Randy Kluth

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that's ok, for as one of my brothers here has already posted, Matthew 7:14 "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."
only a "FEW" good men and women find it... so being in a very small minority... "THANKS". great confirmation.

You don't really want to be in that minority, ie among the minority who deviate from true biblical doctrine. Those in the Church who engage in obvious heresy are in the minority, and they are *not* to be commended. They are not the faithful few, nor are they walking down the straight path. Rather, they try to pull away those who are in Christ to get them to follow after their own religious beliefs.

Col 2.18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you. Such a person also goes into great detail about what they have seen; they are puffed up with idle notions by their unspiritual mind. 19 They have lost connection with the head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

1 John 1.1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life.
 

101G

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GINOLJC, to all.
first thanks for the reply, second you said,
among the minority who deviate from true biblical doctrine. Those in the Church who engage in obvious heresy are in the minority
well would that depends on which church one's in? according to the bible only a remnant, (his church), will be saved. so I neither Judge the individual, for he the Lord Jesus will do that when he separate his "SHEEP", from his "Goats". my job now is to tell the truth, and "WHOSOEVER" believe shall be saved. and the thing is, how do I know I'm telling the TRUTH? if what I say, do it line up with the scriptures? well the test is in the Holy Spirit... test the spirit, (man), by the Spirit, (God), comparing spiritual with Spiritual. line upon line, precept upon precept. line up with biblical teaching of the Holy Ghost. and if what I teach is TRUE, then I can put it on the Table for all to see, and be tested. if it's TRUE, one can test it and it will come out pure Gold. if it's a lie then by Fire, the word of God will burn it up.
as said before, If you believe that I'm in ERROR, then it's your job to prove me wrong. for all scriptures, are given for..... 2 Timothy 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

now if you believe that the doctrine of "Diversified Oneness" is incorrect, just prove it wrong...... it's just that simple.

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101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
 

Randy Kluth

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GINOLJC, to all.
first thanks for the reply, second you said,

well would that depends on which church one's in? according to the bible only a remnant, (his church), will be saved. so I neither Judge the individual, for he the Lord Jesus will do that when he separate his "SHEEP", from his "Goats". my job now is to tell the truth, and "WHOSOEVER" believe shall be saved. and the thing is, how do I know I'm telling the TRUTH? if what I say, do it line up with the scriptures? well the test is in the Holy Spirit... test the spirit, (man), by the Spirit, (God), comparing spiritual with Spiritual. line upon line, precept upon precept. line up with biblical teaching of the Holy Ghost. and if what I teach is TRUE, then I can put it on the Table for all to see, and be tested. if it's TRUE, one can test it and it will come out pure Gold. if it's a lie then by Fire, the word of God will burn it up.
as said before, If you believe that I'm in ERROR, then it's your job to prove me wrong. for all scriptures, are given for..... 2 Timothy 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

now if you believe that the doctrine of "Diversified Oneness" is incorrect, just prove it wrong...... it's just that simple.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

I believe Oneness Christians are still saved Christians--I just think the doctrine of Sabellius was and is in error. The Trinity is not the kind of doctrine that can be proven by quoting passages of Scriptures that speak against it, because modalism appeared later in history than the writings of the NT Scriptures. It's something I enjoy talking about, but it's never easy to convince others about things so difficult to understand and to communicate.

I lived in a Christian cult in S. California for a short time before I realized it wasn't all it was cracked up to be. They degraded Christian groups outside of themselves, and I ultimately found that to be "unChristian." I also discovered they were modalists.

When I left that cult I started studying the Trinity and Modalism--that was way back in the late 70s. Since that time I've found a number of ways of expressing the Trinity. But I still find it difficult to prove Modalists wrong. It isn't because Modalists are right, in my opinion. Rather, it is because the oneness of God is emphasized so strongly in Judaism, making the Trinity something less intuitive than it might otherwise be.

Walter Martin used to simply point out that the Bible talks about 3 distinct Persons who are identified as "God." The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of "God." Jesus is the Son of "God." The Father is "God" the Father. So all 3 Persons of the Trinity are identified as "God," whether you want to call the 3 of them a "Trinity" or not.

They would be modes of God only if these 3 Persons did not relate to one another as separate Persons. But they do. The Son communicates with the Father, and the Father speaks of His Son as "loved." That the Spirit is distinct is depicted by His description as an activity in places where the Son is not there.

Nor can the Father be in any one location unless it is through His Word, Spirit, or Son. The Father, by definition, is omnipresent. He enters into the finite, created realm only by the expression of His Word, which assumes finite forms, depending on what God is saying.

If He says I will be a man expressing myself, then that is what He can do. That is what He did when He made the body of Jesus--He made an expression of His own personality in human form.

You have to decide for yourself. Modalism is historically a heresy. But I will not judge you as a non-Christian. I believe Oneness Pentecostals today are most likely genuine Christians. Your view of the Trinity or against the Trinity does not necessarily destabilize faith in Christ for Salvation. However we view Christ, it is in following him that matters.
 
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101G

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I believe Oneness Christians are still saved Christians--I just think the doctrine of Sabellius was and is in error. The Trinity is not the kind of doctrine that can be proven by quoting passages of Scriptures that speak against it, because modalism appeared later in history than the writings of the NT Scriptures. It's something I enjoy talking about, but it's never easy to convince others about things so difficult to understand and to communicate.
no, the Godhead is proved by scriptures. neither the trinity doctrine, nor the oneness doctrine have no valid biblicalsupport. but diversified oneness do. please understand "diversified oneness" is not oneness as the upc teaches.
I lived in a Christian cult in S. California for a short time before I realized it wasn't all it was cracked up to be. They degraded Christian groups outside of themselves, and I ultimately found that to be "unChristian." I also discovered they were modalists.
this is good, if one's beliefs are true then it can be examine. self eximination with the guidance of the Holy Spirit is best.
When I left that cult I started studying the Trinity and Modalism--that was way back in the late 70s. Since that time I've found a number of ways of expressing the Trinity. But I still find it difficult to prove Modalists wrong. It isn't because Modalists are right, in my opinion. Rather, it is because the oneness of God is emphasized so strongly in Judaism, making the Trinity something less intuitive than it might otherwise be.
let me hit you with something. the trinity doctrine is nothing but Modalism in reverse. this I have found out, I use to be a Trinity believer.
Walter Martin used to simply point out that the Bible talks about 3 distinct Persons who are identified as "God." The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of "God." Jesus is the Son of "God." The Father is "God" the Father. So all 3 Persons of the Trinity are identified as "God," whether you want to call the 3 of them a "Trinity" or not.

They would be modes of God only if these 3 Persons did not relate to one another as separate Persons. But they do. The Son communicates with the Father, and the Father speaks of His Son as "loved." That the Spirit is distinct is depicted by His description as an activity in places where the Son is not there.
look, if the Holy Spirit is a person, and God is a Spirit, then right there, you have a Spirit withing the Spirit.... two Spirits.

my conclusion is this. we all need to examine our ownselves, with the Holy Spirit in Guidance. and let the Holy Spirit guide us in all truth.

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101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
 

Randy Kluth

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no, the Godhead is proved by scriptures. neither the trinity doctrine, nor the oneness doctrine have no valid biblicalsupport. but diversified oneness do. please understand "diversified oneness" is not oneness as the upc teaches.

this is good, if one's beliefs are true then it can be examine. self eximination with the guidance of the Holy Spirit is best.

let me hit you with something. the trinity doctrine is nothing but Modalism in reverse. this I have found out, I use to be a Trinity believer.

look, if the Holy Spirit is a person, and God is a Spirit, then right there, you have a Spirit withing the Spirit.... two Spirits.

my conclusion is this. we all need to examine our ownselves, with the Holy Spirit in Guidance. and let the Holy Spirit guide us in all truth.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

I've been called "unconventional" in my description of the Trinity, which just means that I've tried to explain these things for myself, just as you have. I grew up singing songs with the Trinity in it, and found I had to explain it for myself--not just accept what appears to be a contradiction on the face of it. I have no trouble with those songs now, since I do know how to apply the Trinity, using my own understanding.

Yes, we have the Holy Spirit within the greater spirit of the Father. He is a Counselor, and bears witness to Jesus for it, and as such, has a "job." This is lower down the scale of divine omnipotence, and is a finite expression of the infinite God. Whenever God does an activity through His Word within the realm of Creation, it is de facto a finite expression lower down the field from the infinite identity of God, whose activities have no beginning and no end, and are inexpressible (except through God's Word).

So the Holy Spirit is a finite expression of the infinite God--a spirit within God's Spirit. Perhaps that is why, in revelation, we read of the 7 spirits of God? God can express Himself in persons as varied as He will, as long is He is creating a vehicle to express His own identity.

He can do that as theophanies, in the form of angels, in the form of men, or in the form of spirits. But for the purpose of our Salvation He has expressed Himself in the finite form of Christ, who also enjoys identification with the infinite Deity.

As Origen said, the Word of God has an eternal origin in the infinite God (the "eternal generation" of God's Word) . And as Tertullian said, the rays of God's light begin with the infinite God and extend outwards into the domain of men.

I don't have the quotes from these Church Fathers right now. So I'd have to check.
 

101G

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I've been called "unconventional" in my description of the Trinity, which just means that I've tried to explain these things for myself, just as you have. I grew up singing songs with the Trinity in it, and found I had to explain it for myself--not just accept what appears to be a contradiction on the face of it. I have no trouble with those songs now, since I do know how to apply the Trinity, using my own understanding.
Look a church is a place of FELLOWSHIP, not a place of INDICTIONATION. this is why we have the Holy Spirit. we're to be weaned off milk. Isaiah 28:9 "Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts."
see, we have apostles, prophets, and teachers, to wean us off the milk, but when we grow, then we come into the MEAT of the word, like in your crossroad, one must decide.
Yes, we have the Holy Spirit within the greater spirit of the Father. He is a Counselor, and bears witness to Jesus for it, and as such, has a "job." This is lower down the scale of divine omnipotence, and is a finite expression of the infinite God. Whenever God does an activity through His Word within the realm of Creation, it is de facto a finite expression lower down the field from the infinite identity of God, whose activities have no beginning and no end, and are inexpressible (except through God's Word).
it's the Holy Ghost who teach us. he will guide us in all truth.
So the Holy Spirit is a finite expression of the infinite God--a spirit within God's Spirit. Perhaps that is why, in revelation, we read of the 7 spirits of God? God can express Himself in persons as varied as He will, as long is He is creating a vehicle to express His own identity.
the Holy Ghost is GOD HIMSELF.

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101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
 

Randy Kluth

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Look a church is a place of FELLOWSHIP, not a place of INDICTIONATION. this is why we have the Holy Spirit. we're to be weaned off milk. Isaiah 28:9 "Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts."
see, we have apostles, prophets, and teachers, to wean us off the milk, but when we grow, then we come into the MEAT of the word, like in your crossroad, one must decide.

it's the Holy Ghost who teach us. he will guide us in all truth.

the Holy Ghost is GOD HIMSELF.

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101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

I'm not sure what you're saying? We're all susceptible to error. And none of us have arrived at the absolute truth. The closest to come to this are the apostles who spent 3.5 years with Jesus just so they would get it right. Even then they had a long ways to go. Jesus had to teach them, correct them, rebuke them, and guide them.

Knowledge continues until the end of this life. Only then will this kind of knowledge cease. Until then, we need to sharpen one another, whether that comes from arguing or hearing teaching that is unappealing to us. Iron sharpens iron.
 

101G

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I'm not sure what you're saying? We're all susceptible to error. And none of us have arrived at the absolute truth. The closest to come to this are the apostles who spent 3.5 years with Jesus just so they would get it right. Even then they had a long ways to go. Jesus had to teach them, correct them, rebuke them, and guide them.
well how long have you spent with the Lord? ..... over 3..5 years?
Knowledge continues until the end of this life. Only then will this kind of knowledge cease. Until then, we need to sharpen one another, whether that comes from arguing or hearing teaching that is unappealing to us. Iron sharpens iron.
that's the seekers choice, if they want the knowledge of christ. many don't, 2 Timothy 3:7 "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." why? 1 Corinthians 2:12 "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God."
1 Corinthians 2:13 "Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual."
1 Corinthians 2:14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
1 Corinthians 2:15 "But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man."
1 Corinthians 2:16 "For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ."

see Randy, there is no excuse. one scripture, no two, James 4:2 "Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not."

WHY?

James 4:3 "Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts."
see many want to be the one who KNOW IT all .... to impress others. no, ask so that you may serve God people and him better. that statement is correct, "yet ye have not, because ye ask not." oh how true. I took a little simple truth of God, I asked in Faith, and I recieved. and the reason why I recieved is because I surrendered totally to God. once one do that then they are fit for the work of God.


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101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
 

Phoneman777

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The atmosphere is not going to be gone. Your interpretation is the error. There is not going to be a 14 billion universe with stars, that is Satan’s deception that is burned up. So are all the works of man going to be burned up, cities and technology. All of western science and it's knowledge will be gone. Satan’s deception of the last 2500 years gone.

Peter did not use the word atmosphere. He used the term heaven and earth in relationship to what Satan has convinced humanity is "there", but it is only a virtual reality.
There's only three heavens that God's Bible knows about: the place where His throne is, the starry heavens, and the "birds of the heavens".

Now, we know Peter ain't talking about the starry heavens passing away, nor could he possibly be talking about God's heavenly courts...which leaves only ONE heaven to "pass away with a great noise": the atmospheric heaven. Peter says "the day of the Lord shall come as a thief in the night, in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat. The Earth and also the works therein shall be burned up."

No atmosphere, no elements of the periodic table, no water, sky, rains, clouds, ozone layer, all of it kaput...so no seven more years of anything.

C'mon, man, plenty of people recognize this problem, and is why they invented the ludicrous idea that Jesus is coming "TWO TIMES" as a thief, once at the "secret rapture" and a second time seven years later...which begs the question: how in the world can He come as a thief seven years later when the entire world is going to know precisely when He's coming back? Exactly seven years to the millisecond from the first "thief in the night" coming when He snuck into town and snuck out with teh saints and turned the world upside down.
 
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Phoneman777

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What I declared is The Word of God, not my idea. Anyone... who wants to read what I showed can simply turn to the Revelation 20 chapter and read. The rest of it they can get from study in the rest of the New Testament Books. So men can label that in God's Word whatever they want, but it will only reveal their foolish thinking.



Obviously, you have failed to look up that word "elements" in 2 Peter 3:10, which is NOT about the earthly elements of material matter. It means an order, like a world time. God is not going to literally destroy the whole... earth. He is going to wipe the earth's surface clean, just as He did with the flood long before. His consuming fire is going to do that this next time. As for His shaking of this earth, He did that once before too, and you'd have known that if you had ever read the end of Hebrews 12 and the Jeremiah 4:23-28 Scripture.
How in the world can "order" and "time" melt with fervent heat?

In any case, the passing away of the heavens, the melting of the elements, the Earth and the works therein burned up will leave a totally uninhabitable Earth because the prophecies clearly predict an destroyed, empty, dark, uninhabited, burned up, non-life sustaining, Earth with bodies littered all over the place that won't be gathered, lamented, or buried.

BTW, I can read the Scriptures too, and they don't support Jesuit Futurism in the least which completely ignores the coming future desolation of our planet...which is the thousand years between Christ's first coming and resurrection of the saints and New Jerusalem's relocation at the end of the 1,000 years when the wicked are resurrected, sentenced, and cast into the Lake of Fire.
 

Timtofly

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There's only three heavens that God's Bible knows about: the place where His throne is, the starry heavens, and the "birds of the heavens".

Now, we know Peter ain't talking about the starry heavens passing away, nor could he possibly be talking about God's heavenly courts...which leaves only ONE heaven to "pass away with a great noise": the atmospheric heaven. Peter says "the day of the Lord shall come as a thief in the night, in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat. The Earth and also the works therein shall be burned up."

No atmosphere, no elements of the periodic table, no water, sky, rains, clouds, ozone layer, all of it kaput...so no seven more years of anything.

C'mon, man, plenty of people recognize this problem, and is why they invented the ludicrous idea that Jesus is coming "TWO TIMES" as a thief, once at the "secret rapture" and a second time seven years later...which begs the question: how in the world can He come as a thief seven years later when the entire world is going to know precisely when He's coming back? Exactly seven years to the millisecond from the first "thief in the night" coming when He snuck into town and snuck out with teh saints and turned the world upside down.
The Second Coming is not at the battle of Armageddon. Armageddon is the completion of the 7th Trumpet if, and only if Satan gets 42 months. It has not happened yet. It does not have to happen. Should the church work towards the "goal" of giving Satan 42 months? Should the church force a known Coming?

The Second Coming is not at Armageddon for the same obvious reason that it is a known timed event after Satan splits the week of the 7th Trumpet in half.

The 7th Trumpet is the completion of Christ already on earth, the final harvest, since the Second Coming is the unknown point of the 6th Seal being opened. An event not tied to any of the Trumpet, Thunder, or vial judgments.

The Seals have claimed by some to fit history. Yet no one will know except after the fact when the Seals were actually opened.

Daniel calls Satan's 42 months a time of abomination and desolation, and it is not longer than 42 months.

Now concerning heaven:

There is no planet earth or sun system of planets nor galaxies of billions of light years. That is a smokescreen Satan convinced into the minds of humans. God put water on the other side of the lights in the sky, and the angels who are the stars. A lot of that water came back down at the time of Noah's Flood. What is in the sky as stars and lights, and alledged planets is the same size area as the surface of the earth we live on. That smokescreen and the body of land we call the moon and Mars is what is going to dissolve. All the satellite debris is going to dissolve. The breathable atmosphere is not going away, because we know there may be at least 42 months given to Satan. For those 42 months to happen, humans still need to breath.

Now you can take away Satan's 42 months, by saying nothing happens after the Second Coming. But if you think that is at Armageddon, you refuted your own point. Armageddon is 42 months after Satan takes control. If Satan does not take control, then no Armageddon. By your own point of refutation, Armageddon is not the Second Coming. Armageddon is a pre-determined event, only if Satan gets the 42 months that pre-determined Armageddon.

Post trib is tied to post mill. They both wish all evil to happen before the Second Coming. Unfortunately evil happens after the Second Coming.

Christ is on earth during the worst of the Trib. This is what John witnessed as the Trumpets and Thunders. These happen before Satan is given 42 months. Moving the rapture was the wrong correction to this error. The whole Second Coming cannot happen post Christ already on earth for the Trumpets and Thunders. You made that claim yourself. If the rapture and Second Coming are not known. They cannot happen after the only 42 months, 1260 days, which is about 3.5 years, recorded in Revelation, which ends at Armageddon.

On many if not all forums these days, many talk about the church rejecting the mark or Christ or both. The mark is not the deception. All this false teaching on the AC is the deception. That is all the church is talking about, not the Second Coming, because the lie is Satan gets time before the Second Coming.

If one is not in the church, there will not be a choice between Christ and Satan. The choice will be between getting one's head chopped off or Satan. The choice for Christ will not happen after Christ is on the earth. Any "church" left will be forced to reject Christ. This will be the same blindness placed on Israel, when they rejected the Messiah in the first century. The left behind "church" will be in the dark, and Israel will welcome their Messiah.

But this period will not be the time of rejoicing and tears removed. All humanity will die including Israel. The Resurrection of Israel will happen at the end of the 7th Trumpet. The 7th Trumpet will be one week, or 42 months if Satan is handed the authority, instead of being immediately bound for 1000 years. Yes, John witnessed the worse case scenario. It was not a prophecy, although if the 42 months happens, John is one of the 2 witnesses who is "killed" by Satan at the end of the 42 months, if it happens.

Many can declare this is all just symbolism and has no basis in reality. If that is the case, is the Second Coming symbolic? Is a resurrection symbolic? Was the first earthly ministry just a symbolic tale made up by the Jews of the first century? A small cult of Judaism that the world teaches us happened?

At what point can we determine literal reality and a belief system?
 

Phoneman777

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The Second Coming is not at the battle of Armageddon. Armageddon is the completion of the 7th Trumpet if, and only if Satan gets 42 months. It has not happened yet. It does not have to happen. Should the church work towards the "goal" of giving Satan 42 months? Should the church force a known Coming?

The Second Coming is not at Armageddon for the same obvious reason that it is a known timed event after Satan splits the week of the 7th Trumpet in half.

The 7th Trumpet is the completion of Christ already on earth, the final harvest, since the Second Coming is the unknown point of the 6th Seal being opened. An event not tied to any of the Trumpet, Thunder, or vial judgments.

The Seals have claimed by some to fit history. Yet no one will know except after the fact when the Seals were actually opened.

Daniel calls Satan's 42 months a time of abomination and desolation, and it is not longer than 42 months.

Now concerning heaven:

There is no planet earth or sun system of planets nor galaxies of billions of light years. That is a smokescreen Satan convinced into the minds of humans. God put water on the other side of the lights in the sky, and the angels who are the stars. A lot of that water came back down at the time of Noah's Flood. What is in the sky as stars and lights, and alledged planets is the same size area as the surface of the earth we live on. That smokescreen and the body of land we call the moon and Mars is what is going to dissolve. All the satellite debris is going to dissolve. The breathable atmosphere is not going away, because we know there may be at least 42 months given to Satan. For those 42 months to happen, humans still need to breath.

Now you can take away Satan's 42 months, by saying nothing happens after the Second Coming. But if you think that is at Armageddon, you refuted your own point. Armageddon is 42 months after Satan takes control. If Satan does not take control, then no Armageddon. By your own point of refutation, Armageddon is not the Second Coming. Armageddon is a pre-determined event, only if Satan gets the 42 months that pre-determined Armageddon.

Post trib is tied to post mill. They both wish all evil to happen before the Second Coming. Unfortunately evil happens after the Second Coming.

Christ is on earth during the worst of the Trib. This is what John witnessed as the Trumpets and Thunders. These happen before Satan is given 42 months. Moving the rapture was the wrong correction to this error. The whole Second Coming cannot happen post Christ already on earth for the Trumpets and Thunders. You made that claim yourself. If the rapture and Second Coming are not known. They cannot happen after the only 42 months, 1260 days, which is about 3.5 years, recorded in Revelation, which ends at Armageddon.

On many if not all forums these days, many talk about the church rejecting the mark or Christ or both. The mark is not the deception. All this false teaching on the AC is the deception. That is all the church is talking about, not the Second Coming, because the lie is Satan gets time before the Second Coming.

If one is not in the church, there will not be a choice between Christ and Satan. The choice will be between getting one's head chopped off or Satan. The choice for Christ will not happen after Christ is on the earth. Any "church" left will be forced to reject Christ. This will be the same blindness placed on Israel, when they rejected the Messiah in the first century. The left behind "church" will be in the dark, and Israel will welcome their Messiah.

But this period will not be the time of rejoicing and tears removed. All humanity will die including Israel. The Resurrection of Israel will happen at the end of the 7th Trumpet. The 7th Trumpet will be one week, or 42 months if Satan is handed the authority, instead of being immediately bound for 1000 years. Yes, John witnessed the worse case scenario. It was not a prophecy, although if the 42 months happens, John is one of the 2 witnesses who is "killed" by Satan at the end of the 42 months, if it happens.

Many can declare this is all just symbolism and has no basis in reality. If that is the case, is the Second Coming symbolic? Is a resurrection symbolic? Was the first earthly ministry just a symbolic tale made up by the Jews of the first century? A small cult of Judaism that the world teaches us happened?

At what point can we determine literal reality and a belief system?
We have to be consistent with our symbolism. We can't claim the 70 Weeks of Daniel 9 are symbolic time periods, but then head over to Revelation and insist that the 1,260 days, 42 months, 3 1/2 years, and time/times/half a time are literal, especially when dealing with a book that John plainly says was "sign-ified" by His angel unto servant John".

A "signified" thing is expressed with signs, symbols, tokens, etc., which must be interpreted. Time periods in prophecy are symbolized by the "Day/Year Principle", as easily seen in Daniel, and we must be consistent when interpreting time periods in Revelation. :)
 
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Timtofly

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We have to be consistent with our symbolism. We can't claim the 70 Weeks of Daniel 9 are symbolic time periods, but then head over to Revelation and insist that the 1,260 days, 42 months, 3 1/2 years, and time/times/half a time are literal, especially when dealing with a book that John plainly says was "sign-ified" by His angel unto servant John".

A "signified" thing is expressed with signs, symbols, tokens, etc., which must be interpreted. Time periods in prophecy are symbolized by the "Day/Year Principle", as easily seen in Daniel, and we must be consistent when interpreting time periods in Revelation. :)
The 483 years of Daniel ended prior to the Baptism of Jesus. The last 7 years, many have failed to define it for obvious reasons. I never said the 7 years will not be completed, but shortened, because they are the earthly ministry of Jesus Christ. Not shortened to only 3.5 years years of timed served. There is still 2.5 years left. When Jesus was "cut off" time did not stop. Jesus did not confirm a Covenant for 7 years. Daniel did not say the 7th week was the confirmation involving 7 years.

"He will confirm the covenant for 1 week". The end of the week is when exactly? Daniel never says there is a solid week either.

"in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease"

"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off"

It is not that I am inconsistent. There is not a defined solid week, even if it were days or years. 1260 days is days. 42 months is months. What is the symbolic point you are making? Daniel wrote his book 500+ years before Jesus was born. That was not 70 literal weeks. It was revealed to Daniel that the 70 years of captivity would be related to 70 weeks of years, involving the Messiah. But not only the Messiah, but the restoration of Jerusalem and a Temple. That is the symbolism of Daniel.
 

Phoneman777

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The 483 years of Daniel ended prior to the Baptism of Jesus.
It's hermeneutics like this that drive me crazy.

"...from the going forth of the commandment...unto Messiah the Prince..."

The text is clear: the 483 years begin with the decree (of Artaxerxes) and ended with the Prince Jesus being "messiah-ed" aka "anointed" in baptism in 27 A.D., not "prior to" His baptism. 27 A.D. was the 15th year of Tiberius and the only year he reigned simultaneously with Herod and Pilate.
 
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Timtofly

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It's hermeneutics like this that drive me crazy.

"...from the going forth of the commandment...unto Messiah the Prince..."

The text is clear: the 483 years begin with the decree (of Artaxerxes) and ended with the Prince Jesus being "messiah-ed" aka "anointed" in baptism in 27 A.D., not "prior to" His baptism. 27 A.D. was the 15th year of Tiberius and the only year he reigned simultaneously with Herod and Pilate.
That is what I said in less words. The 483 years did not end after the baptism of Jesus Christ in 27AD. They may not have ended at. Artaxerxes did not make the decree. He re-stated the original decree. Thus only 434 years had to be resolved. The other 49 years had already been fulfilled before Artaxerxes. But you can apply the math as you see fit. The baptism was not after 490 years, but it was after 483 years. Yet these 490 years could have easily fit in between Cyrus and the birth of Jesus. But you exclude that decree, even though Artaxerxes did not, but used it to back up his own decision.
 

Davy

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How in the world can "order" and "time" melt with fervent heat?

You must just like to argue, coming up with that silliness.

In any case, the passing away of the heavens, the melting of the elements, the Earth and the works therein burned up will leave a totally uninhabitable Earth because the prophecies clearly predict an destroyed, empty, dark, uninhabited, burned up, non-life sustaining, Earth with bodies littered all over the place that won't be gathered, lamented, or buried.

BTW, I can read the Scriptures too, and they don't support Jesuit Futurism in the least which completely ignores the coming future desolation of our planet...which is the thousand years between Christ's first coming and resurrection of the saints and New Jerusalem's relocation at the end of the 1,000 years when the wicked are resurrected, sentenced, and cast into the Lake of Fire.

Did God totally destroy the earth with a flood per that 2 Peter 3 chapter? No. Thus the idea of that 2 Peter 3 chapter is about destruction of man's works UPON the earth, not turning the earth into an asteroid belt.

The earth is forever, as God has said long ago that Jerusalem is where He chose to dwell forever. You should try studying more of your Bible than just parts.

Ps 132:13-17
13 For the LORD hath chosen Zion; He hath desired it for His habitation.

14 This is My rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it.
15 I will abundantly bless her provision: I will satisfy her poor with bread.
16 I will also clothe her priests with salvation: and her saints shall shout aloud for joy.
17 There will I make the horn of David to bud: I have ordained a lamp for Mine anointed.
KJV



Ezek 48:35
35 It was round about eighteen thousand measures: and the name of the city from that day shall be, 'The LORD is there.'
KJV


Joel 3:17-18
17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, My holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.
18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim.
KJV

Rev 21:3
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them, and be their God.
KJV
 

Davy

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The Second Coming is not at the battle of Armageddon. Armageddon is the completion of the 7th Trumpet if, and only if Satan gets 42 months. It has not happened yet. It does not have to happen. Should the church work towards the "goal" of giving Satan 42 months? Should the church force a known Coming?

The Second Coming is not at Armageddon for the same obvious reason that it is a known timed event after Satan splits the week of the 7th Trumpet in half.

That's silly confusion, not at all what God's Word reveals as written. What backyard theology camp did you come from?

The battle of Armageddon definitely involves Christ's 2nd coming. He only returns once, not three times.

Rev 16:15-21
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

On the 6th Vial, Jesus is warning His 'faithful' Church that is STILL on the earth waiting for His return on the "day of the Lord". And He remarks that those who wait by 'watching', and keeping their garments (your righteous clothing vial works for Him), are blessed. Otherwise, those who don't do that will fall to shame and be spiritually naked when He returns (i.e., like the five foolish virgins of Matthew 25).



16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

That gathering is about those back in verses 13-14 on the earth for that 6th Vial timing. Jesus will gather those to battle at Armageddon on the final day of this present world. That is when the "day of the Lord" is to happen and is when He will pour out His wrath upon the wicked on earth. This is Christ's 2nd coming.



17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, "It is done."

Revelation 10:6-7 revealed that when the 7th angels sounds, the mystery of God given through His OT prophets would be finished. That is a major sign of the day of Christ's 2nd coming.



18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.
KJV


Those are all signs of the last day of this present world. That is the day of Christ's literal return to gather His Church to Jerusalem, also called the "day of the Lord".
 

Nancy

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Pride? No, disappointment! I don't recall speaking with you before this thread. Have a good life and may God bless you as you walk with Him!
Oh John, you are the LEAST prideful person on this whole board!! I think he must have mistakenly sent that to you?
 
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