Opinions about arrogance

[aspen]

After being referred to as pompous and arrogant by a member of Christianityboard, I become very interested in the subject. The person who sees an arrogant tone in my posts and perhaps arrogant words, also made another point that I thought was really interesting - arrogance is subjective. So, seeing arrogance in another person may only be seen by the observer. I would really appreciate if this thread did not turn into a slam-fest on people you think are arrogant - instead, stick to behaviors.

An exception to this parameter is comments on my behavior. If you believe I am behaving arrogantly on this board. let me know - but be specific. I will try not to be defensive and I may ask more questions to get as much information as possible. If you do not like me, please by objective or do not post. I am not asking to be abused - I am asking for insight.

One more thing - I want to let you all know that I believe that the ability to see personal sin in others is solely for the purpose of identifying sins in ourselves. The stronger you feel about another person's personal sin, the more likely it is rooted within yourself or the behavior has wounded you in the past and left behind maladaptive behavior that need attention. Thought I should be upfront.

Thanks!

 

[Foreigner]

What is your definition of arrogance?
You have said that since arrogance is a sin, that is just as bad as homosexuality or other sins so it should prevent a person from being a pastor.
How exactly would you know they are arrogant?

 

[aspen]

What is your definition of arrogance?
You have said that since arrogance is a sin, that is just as bad as homosexuality or other sins so it should prevent a person from being a pastor.
How exactly would you know they are arrogant?

I gave a detailed list of behaviors that I view as arrogant on another thread that you may be reading right now. To sum up my other post, any behaviors that work together or in isolation to exalt the false self over everyone else is viewed as arrogant to me.

If the minister who was interviewing, displayed a lack of perspective-taking skills, empathy, mercy, and forgiveness, I would be concerned about arrogance or even narcissism. I am not claiming that all these behaviors can be adequately assessed in one interview - hopefully, the search team would spend some time viewing the minister interacting with church members in different settings. Any attempts at leveling, cruel sarcasm, or tricking people in jest, or name-calling or asserting doctrinal correctness over the care or concern of others (public admonishment of strangers), would all be red flags.

 

[Miss Hepburn]

aspen, honey,
Sometimes a person on a forum can be so happy and express that happiness
and it will be interpreted as arrogant.
Once I was thought to be bipolar because of a death and expressing sadness
and 3 weeks later I was exuberant after being Bap in the Holy Spirit and being healed
(What? Bi-polar? Geeze!!!)

I wouldn't take it too seriously; the written word has no tone or facial expressions - they don't
know your heart.

It's such a bother to tip toe around these people that jump to
conclusions and then jump on you with little kindness or tact, imo.

You hang in there,
xxoo Miss Hepburn

And if you have been arrogant, then stop. Big deal. Let it go, it's a distraction from God - pure and simple.

 

[aspen]

aspen, honey,
Sometimes a person on a forum can be so happy and express that happiness
and it will be interpreted as arrogant.
Once I was thought to be bipolar because of a death and expressing sadness
and 3 weeks later I was exuberant after being Bap in the Holy Spirit and being healed
(What? Bi-polar? Geeze!!!)

I wouldn't take it too seriously; the written word has no tone or facial expressions - they don't
know your heart.

It's such a bother to tip toe around these people that jump to
conclusions and then jump on you with little kindness or tact, imo.

You hang in there,
xxoo Miss Hepburn

And if you have been arrogant, then stop. Big deal. Let it go, it's a distraction from God - pure and simple.

I am just learning new things MH!

Nice to hear from you!!

 

[Rach1370]

Hey Aspen!
Hmm. I would say that I perceive arrogance in a person who refuses to believe that perhaps God and the Holy Spirit has any more for them to learn...they refuse to see that they may be wrong, or at the least that others could hold other views, and still not be in sin. They are abrupt, rude and claim that everyone who has different views to them is not only wrong, but evil as well. They show no love in their posts at all, they seem to be here only to win, to be right, to make others wallow in their wrongness and the other persons rightness. They care nothing for the feelings of others. I think my biggest problem is that they appear not to be doing all of the above because they are 'contending for the faith'. If that was truly the case one would think that they would also try and remember the 'love others' and 'get along with all men if possible' that the Bible also teaches. But they don't show any kindness, they verbally slam everyone. I believe in standing firm in what the bible teaches...we should not compromise on the truth we find in it, but for goodness sakes, that can be done with love, with encouragement, with a heartfelt need for others to see the truth.

As far as you Aspen, well, I don't think you're arrogant. I think you have the capacity to be stubborn!! I sometimes think that you should just let things go, especially when clearly the other person will not accept you view. It took me some time to come to the same conclusion...sigh. It's natural to want to defend yourself, and even more, try and make yourself understood when clearly the other person does not get it!!
But in the end, I try and think like this: does my argument defend Jesus, or myself? If it's the later, I do my best to drop it.
I may not always agree with you on secondary issues Aspen, but you have always been friendly and willing to talk about those differences with an open mind. Not that I've ever managed to change your mind!! But as long as you claim Jesus as Lord, I think the Holy Spirit will lead you to any corrections in doctrine if needed, just as He will do for me!

 

[aspen]

Hey Aspen!
Hmm. I would say that I perceive arrogance in a person who refuses to believe that perhaps God and the Holy Spirit has any more for them to learn...they refuse to see that they may be wrong, or at the least that others could hold other views, and still not be in sin. They are abrupt, rude and claim that everyone who has different views to them is not only wrong, but evil as well. They show no love in their posts at all, they seem to be here only to win, to be right, to make others wallow in their wrongness and the other persons rightness. They care nothing for the feelings of others. I think my biggest problem is that they appear not to be doing all of the above because they are 'contending for the faith'. If that was truly the case one would think that they would also try and remember the 'love others' and 'get along with all men if possible' that the Bible also teaches. But they don't show any kindness, they verbally slam everyone. I believe in standing firm in what the bible teaches...we should not compromise on the truth we find in it, but for goodness sakes, that can be done with love, with encouragement, with a heartfelt need for others to see the truth.

As far as you Aspen, well, I don't think you're arrogant. I think you have the capacity to be stubborn!! I sometimes think that you should just let things go, especially when clearly the other person will not accept you view. It took me some time to come to the same conclusion...sigh. It's natural to want to defend yourself, and even more, try and make yourself understood when clearly the other person does not get it!!
But in the end, I try and think like this: does my argument defend Jesus, or myself? If it's the later, I do my best to drop it.
I may not always agree with you on secondary issues Aspen, but you have always been friendly and willing to talk about those differences with an open mind. Not that I've ever managed to change your mind!! But as long as you claim Jesus as Lord, I think the Holy Spirit will lead you to any corrections in doctrine if needed, just as He will do for me!

Great post. I agree with everything you've said. I agree that I am stubborn - it has paralyzed me in the past; I think it can be good trait if it stops at tenacity, but it often goes too far. In some cases, I am simply interested in how far a person will go in an argument. I think you would be surprised how often you have changed my 'mindset' if not my theological opinions. I can think of several occasions when you have soften my stance on Catholic doctrine and helped me construct new ways of thinking about Biblical ideas that we agree on. I respect your knowledge of the Bible and your enduring kindness in our conversations.

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

There's a fine line between arrogance and confidence.

 

[tomwebster]

There's a fine line between arrogance and confidence.

I agree with that, one person might be considered arrogent by some and confident by other.

 

[Miss Hepburn]

I agree with that, one person might be considered arrogant by some and confident by other.

Precisely, and who cares what others think...

But, that is the difference - enthusiastic confidence and joy in the Lord has
been interpreted by idiots as arrogance and ego.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Did I say "idiots"?

Gosh, how politically incorrect...and yet...

 

[Rach1370]

Great post. I agree with everything you've said. I agree that I am stubborn - it has paralyzed me in the past; I think it can be good trait if it stops at tenacity, but it often goes too far. In some cases, I am simply interested in how far a person will go in an argument. I think you would be surprised how often you have changed my 'mindset' if not my theological opinions. I can think of several occasions when you have soften my stance on Catholic doctrine and helped me construct new ways of thinking about Biblical ideas that we agree on. I respect your knowledge of the Bible and your enduring kindness in our conversations.

Thanks Aspen, it's nice to know our conversations are beneficial on both sides!

There's a fine line between arrogance and confidence.

I think that line should be the love of Christ. I know a few confident people, without Christ they would be hard and arrogant, but because of Jesus in their lives and world views, it softens them to others.
I have no complaints over people being absolutely sure on a topic, I am unswerving on some myself! In some we mustn't be swayed...but don't you think that while we are steadfast, we should also be loving, just as Christ was loving? Didn't He tells us to do just that? What does it say about a Christian who claims to have a new heart, but is mean to others? It doesn't really make sense to me!

 

[Comm.Arnold]

I don't think you are too arrogant aspen you are a bit of a catholic mccatholic sometimes. Meaning you put the pseudophigra or whatever in your sig. Stephen Colbert now there is some fine arrogance....

 

[lawrance]

Was Jesus seen to be arrogant - kicking over things and driving people out with a whip ? i don't think he really appreciated some of the people in positions of their authority.
Some may of seen it that way ?

What i see of you aspen is you can be like a old grandma just harping on about always being seen to be good by others regardless or pushing that line of thought. But i do like you as you are devoted and well informed and highly regarded also i see it as a pleasure to hear you point of view as you are a great loving Christian.

I think it's great that we can all learn so much from the people on this forum be it even from some arrogance or even cunning diplomatic types pushing spin ect.

It looks like you may have a gripe with a minister aspen, as you may see the person as being to harsh, this may be so, but in the lives of the saints we find no! wishy washy types as they put people straight as to the direction of Christ. as we are called to be a soldier in Christ not just modern day spine less bunch of pansies just layabouts wishing for salvation to just come to us. we have to cease the day in Christ for it is in his victory we serve and no other.

 

[Robbie]

You seem cool to me so far Aspen... but I'll let you know if you every start acting like a jerk... via PM and not some public outlashing of course... haha

PS: It's a message board... there's no point in caring what people think about you that don't really know you... so ask your wife... ask your close friends that really know you... that's how you'll get a real opinion...

 

[goodshepard55]

You seem cool to me so far Aspen... but I'll let you know if you every start acting like a jerk... via PM and not some public outlashing of course... haha

PS: It's a message board... there's no point in caring what people think about you that don't really know you... so ask your wife... ask your close friends that really know you... that's how you'll get a real opinion...

Amen...anyway...don't worry about what people think Aspen...God loves you so it does not matter if anyone else does or not....except the wife of course.....God loves you and so does your family...I love you, because you are my brother......But I do agree with Robbie...I would take it to a pm...not to the board

 

[aspen]

Thanks for all the kind words everyone!

I am actually not offended at all or taking anyone's opinions to heart - I really am interested in arrogance and pride among Christians.

I am starting to believe that being provocative might be seen as arrogance by many Christians - so, for example bringing up controversial subjects in order to spark conversation might seem like a person is trying to start trouble....

I admit that I like to talk about subjects that are seen as controversial because they are not agreed upon by Christians......I do it, not to start trouble, but to invite thought and dialog.....

I have noticed that many Christians are looking for consensus rather than discussion.

Is this true or just my perception?

 

[Robbie]

My experience is that when dealing with a religious spirit... anyone who won't submit is a rebellious, arrogant, evil, heretic, etc... even Jesus was seen as this by the religious that He wouldn't submit to...

 

[aspen]

My experience is that when dealing with a religious spirit... anyone who won't submit is a rebellious, arrogant, evil, heretic, etc... even Jesus was seen as this by the religious that He wouldn't submit to...

Yeah, I guess Jesus was crucified for it.....

Perhaps this is the reason why he told His disciples that the world will hate them because of Him? Thinking outside the box may get you in trouble....

Ha! I bet the Pharisees saw Jesus as arrogant!

 

[Rach1370]

Do you know what I've noticed...and I'm talking of myself here, not others. It's that whenever it's pointed out that I'm wrong...in thought or deed, my very first reaction is defence and anger. It's that ingrained sinful nature kicking in first. Thankfully I have the hope that one day I may listen to the Spirit first and have totally strangled that side of me! I'm thankful and aware that it is only through God in me that I manage at all to step back from that first response, take a breath and truly wonder what the right one is, what God would have me do.
Ah, the work in progress!!!

 

[aspen]

Do you know what I've noticed...and I'm talking of myself here, not others. It's that whenever it's pointed out that I'm wrong...in thought or deed, my very first reaction is defence and anger. It's that ingrained sinful nature kicking in first. Thankfully I have the hope that one day I may listen to the Spirit first and have totally strangled that side of me! I'm thankful and aware that it is only through God in me that I manage at all to step back from that first response, take a breath and truly wonder what the right one is, what God would have me do.
Ah, the work in progress!!!

I can relate! It has been interesting though.....the more I engage in contemplative prayer, the more I can separate myself from my thoughts, feeling, and reactions. It is as if I have become a witness instead of being wrapped up in the chaos of emotion and thoughts. The more I surrender to God, the more I am able to observe myself. Sanctification has been a real trip for me.

I believe that knowing myself and experiencing God's love for me, allows me to understand my strengths and weaknesses....which is the definition of humility. I am looking forward to the day when this state becomes a reality. Arrogance is a false understanding of strengths and weaknesses - resulting in a puffing up of weaknesses and strengths "I have no weaknesses (ignore that man behind the curtain!) and an over identification with strengths - "I am my strengths"