origin of "the faith"

[DPMartin]

I see

You are obviously a Christian
You disagree with what I stated
Therefore, despite my claims otherwise, I am not a Christian

Nice

nope one should agree with the Lord and what He says, and the Lord is isn't required to agree with me, or anyone else for that matter. as far as agreeing or disagreeing with you has nothing to do with the truth of the matter which is a "Christian" believes the bible to be true, an atheist says the bible is a idea or a book of ideas, you say you are a Christian but speak like an atheist which would lead any reasonable person to believe you are lying about being a Christian. therefore it stands to reason you are a liar. which has nothing to do with agreement between persons, does it?

a believer believes and trusts (faith) that's not a opinion.


in the "free world" one is free to believe their own opinions, but the Kingdom of God isn't a democracy. so free thinking doesn't supersede what the Lord God says, unless you are your own god being the judge of good and evil according to your own judgement.

 

[pia]

@bbyrd009 ....sorry can't agree with you there, as He would not have purposely made it so difficult to understand that we have ended up with thousands of different denominations and splinter groups for 'Christians', just because they all seem to understand the same text differently...Anyway, so we'll have to agree to disagree on this one ...

 

[Helen]

@bbyrd009 ....sorry can't agree with you there, as He would not have purposely made it so difficult to understand that we have ended up with thousands of different denominations and splinter groups for 'Christians', just because they all seem to understand the same text differently...Anyway, so we'll have to agree to disagree on this one ...

Oh fun. The first thing that we can disagree upon.
I agree with @bbyrd009 on this.
Jesus even says Himself when he spoke, that He spoke so they did not understand.
Matt 13 " Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive."

It is up to us to seek and find...knock , that it be opened.
It is for sure....'a hard saying'

But we are to search out the matter..and prove all things.
Few will take the time to check out , pray, study, wait, listen, and search out for themselves. Much easier to just "pick one" ( of the multitude of beliefs 'out there'.)

Anyway, that is just my two cents.

 

[pia]

It is up to us to seek and find...knock , that it be opened.
It is for sure....'a hard saying'

I most certainly do agree with you on this.....However as far as the parables go, The Holy Spirit had not yet been given, and as well He was bringing in a New Covenant, so almost all He said, must have sounded 'wrong' to a lot of the people of the day...If we notice, Jesus went about correcting what the Israelite's had made their law into, by leaving out the most important parts, such as mercy and Love....They sure didn't like what He had to say ( the leaders of the day ), so much so they decided that He deserved to die for it.....
But you are right that we don't entirely agree on the entire Bible, my biggest problem is when I hear people saying that God wrote it ( or the Holy spirit ) and as we know He IS the truth....if that is so, why would He have written ( for one thing ) four differing accounts of resurrection morning ? Which one is the Truth ? Which one did He write ? I cannot comprehend how anyone would honestly believe that God would sanction such confusion ?
So, as you say Helen, we must seek, ask and knock, and that is how we get to the truth...You won't get any argument from me on that score lol....

 

[Helen]

I cannot comprehend how anyone would honestly believe that God would sanction such confusion ?
So, as you say Helen, we must seek, ask and knock, and that is how we get to the truth...You won't get any argument from me on that score lol....

I don't think He sanctions it, but neither does He wring His hands in concern.

As for "the Bible"...I believe the trouble is with the translators..."helping" by changing some of the meanings and words.

But, no matter...I probably shouldn't have written that first post
No worries. x

 

[pia]

As for "the Bible"...I believe the trouble is with the translators..."helping" by changing some of the meanings and words.

I'm glad you did post that, and what you wrote above, I do agree with you on that also....I do not reject the Bible, but neither do I take it as Him speaking to me, since He doesn't seem to have any problem doing that...I have however asked Him many a time about things written in the Bible, and He has been gracious enough to put up with all my asking.....There is an old saying "all roads lead to Rome", I kinda think of God this way....people come to Him under many and varied ways and circumstances....we should never limit Him, that's for certain....

 

[bbyrd009]

@bbyrd009 ....sorry can't agree with you there, as He would not have purposely made it so difficult to understand that we have ended up with thousands of different denominations and splinter groups for 'Christians', just because they all seem to understand the same text differently...Anyway, so we'll have to agree to disagree on this one ...

well, for that i would suggest letting the fruit--thousands of different denominations and splinter groups for 'Christians'--be the guide there. Iow if God's will is being done here, we have to contemplate that that is exactly what is purposely going on, even though you can put it differently, play with the perspectives there, to get a better grasp of "why" i guess.

it should be evident that if you read Scripture logically, you will come into conflict with other ppl who have done the same; what we witness happening in Christendom, broadly speaking. Note that i could read you a Tao story, and you would be nodding your head at the end of it, along with everyone else? See that this is bc your perspective has not been written into the story; you are an outside observer with no perspective in the Tao stories.

and these are great, they reveal truth too, but they do not reveal people, readers, the same way that allowing them to choose a perspective, or even inferring a perspective for them would do. So, i'm not sure what specifically you don't agree with yet, lemme go look...

DP got in between your reply and this,

interesting how truth is revealed huh

so what you don't agree with is still kind of occluded, i'd have to ask you to restate it now i guess

 

[bbyrd009]

if that is so, why would He have written ( for one thing ) four differing accounts of resurrection morning ? Which one is the Truth ? Which one did He write ? I cannot comprehend how anyone would honestly believe that God would sanction such confusion ?

these are great questions, and they have an answer. See how your perspective has now been called upon to provide it. Bc you gotta believe that the authors knew they were not agreeing with each other in some details, just like any two eye-witnesses to an event

 

[pia]

'Christians'--be the guide there

I fully believe that a person within any of the denominations, can have a right heart with God...My issue is not with the individuals within these institutions, but the institutions themselves, as they do seem to want the individuals within it, to be just like 'them' ( the founders of whichever denomination it is ).....so it becomes more about being a catholic, or mormon, ot JW or whatever, and less about becoming like Christ and being Christlike..
The only written bit I can think of here is when Paul asks the question :" Is Christ divided?"

 

[pia]

eye-witnesses to an even

Great ! That is exactly what I came to believe...that it is by witnesses and telling of these things and retelling them, until someone wrote them down... Just like anyone today, if 6 people see a crime being committed, they all seem to recall the events a little different from one another...I have seen many experiments to conclude this.....
So we do agree on this......Having various witness accounts written is not the same thing as 'God wrote it'....My question was about why God would have written 4 differing accounts ? To me it proves that He did not, but through these accounts, we can seek Him for the truth of any of the things written....Am I making any sense ?

 

[bbyrd009]

Great ! That is exactly what I came to believe...that it is by witnesses and telling of these things and retelling them, until someone wrote them down... Just like anyone today, if 6 people see a crime being committed, they all seem to recall the events a little different from one another...I have seen many experiments to conclude this.....
So we do agree on this......Having various witness accounts written is not the same thing as 'God wrote it'....My question was about why God would have written 4 differing accounts ? To me it proves that He did not, but through these accounts, we can seek Him for the truth of any of the things written....Am I making any sense ?

yes, i get you, but imo these are included to illustrate perspective, and thwart a logical, literal reading of Scripture, and steer ppl out of believing in any "absolute truth." Other than God, anyway

 

[amadeus]

Great ! That is exactly what I came to believe...that it is by witnesses and telling of these things and retelling them, until someone wrote them down... Just like anyone today, if 6 people see a crime being committed, they all seem to recall the events a little different from one another...I have seen many experiments to conclude this.....
So we do agree on this......Having various witness accounts written is not the same thing as 'God wrote it'....My question was about why God would have written 4 differing accounts ? To me it proves that He did not, but through these accounts, we can seek Him for the truth of any of the things written....Am I making any sense ?

What is God's message to anyone? Is it only what works logically [man's logic] or mathematically? No, His message is to you and to me or the other guy for us to understand something... It is possible of course in the moment that we read it that there is no message for us. Then again it is possible with the apparent lack of understanding or even contradiction God wants us to consider that: the contradiction. We should not presume that men introduced the contradiction, on purpose or by accident and were thereby were overriding God's purpose, or God's message, should we?

In apparent errors or contradictions cannot God also have a message? People don't always understand the God's message for different reasons. What we need to understand, we will understand if we are asking God to give us the necessary understanding. Sometimes people read the scriptures with the wrong attitude and/or for the wrong purpose. What is the right attitude and the right purpose? God knows. Consider:

"And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah." II Sam 24:1

"And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel." I Chron 21:1

Why was it the Lord who moved David to number them in the one verse while in the other verse it was Satan who provoked him? If we read on we would see the this "numbering" is described as sin on David's part. But what is God's message to the person who reads the two verses, to you or to me? It is certainly talking about the problem with counting things when we do not need to know the result, but what about the Lord or Satan being the instigator? Why the different usage in two verses describing the same incident?

For someone who does not believe in a separate devil entity it might tend to lend support to his belief.

For someone who does follow the mainline belief that there is such a separate devil entity, it might seem to be confusing.

You see the difficulty, but as you know there is no difficulty for God. Should we throw out any verses that indicate what we believe is in error? Some will effectively do that rather than leave it all in God's hands where it belongs. Some will use it as a basis to argue with others to prove they are right and the other guy is wrong. Did God not anticipate that people would do this kind of thing rather than simply love the truth even though they were not really certain what the truth was?

"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:" II Thess 2:10-11

 

[pia]

"absolute truth." Other than God, anyway

None of this of course, take the least bit away from what He did

 

[pia]

@amadeus What a great post.....I do agree and I keep seeking Him for things not previously understood, I wouldn't just 'throw' them away.....But once He HAS shown me a thing which is a little different, then all I can do is accept that He knows better than I do, and better than I can figure it out by the written words.
Didn't believe in a devil, to begin with, but after some time, I had to concede that we do indeed have enemies, not of flesh and blood....
Thanks.....Blessings

 

[bbyrd009]

None of this of course, take the least bit away from what He did

no, but there is an obvious division between the religious and the spiritual, and while it seems like the two would mix they do not. In my experience religion relates to politics (the world), by which i don't mean "evil" but "institutions," and all of the markers exist for this connection imo; not one is missing

 

[amadeus]

no, but there is an obvious division between the religious and the spiritual, and while it seems like the two would mix they do not. In my experience religion relates to politics (the world), by which i don't mean "evil" but "institutions," and all of the markers exist for this connection imo; not one is missing

But, some people really do not know when politics is involved and therefore are unable to identify it as such. Among "religious" folk this might correctly be called "delusion".

 

[pia]

the religious and the spiritual, and while it seems like the two would mi

Well you're right on the money here....They do not mix...It's like Jesus said :" You cannot put new wine into old wine skins."....The religious are trying to fit Jesus into the old law of sin and death...

 

[pia]

In my experience religion relates to politics (the world),

I tend to agree with you there...Like the way governments have a leader, who most listen to, they also have that hierarchy, regarding a level of impotence and pay checks reflecting that...
In religious institutions, they seem to follow the same model, as well as somewhat an 'army' type set up...some religions are very militarized in a way...Also following a leader, but most of the congregation, nothing but foot soldiers in comparison with the leader and his few trusted 'generals and alike'......Getting converts by hook or by crook as they say....I have had religious people come to my door claiming to be followers of Jesus, and upon letting them in, they begin to speak of Him differently....I do not accept that as a legitimate approach for a believer.......I have not seen many in the various fellowships I have attended over the years ( not for some time now though), who accepted Jesus as The living Word, as a reality, who is the same today, as He was then......Mostly their eyes glaze over, if you speak of this, or they get upset trying to tell you that it's not possible......Some even tried to tell me that it was the devil I saw and spoke to....Hahaha, the devil would definitely have a mental problem if he went to people who were not believers in order to give them the proof that God and Jesus are real......Hilarious !

 

[pia]

correctly be called "delusion"

One day when I was feeling particularly upset at what was going on in the world, the Lord said for me to 'untangle' myself of this world....That what must happen will happen and I should 'remove' myself from it and give my attention to the spirit life......I do think He has some understanding of how difficult it is for us, to be right in the midst of all this stuff going on in the world, so many injustices, so much death and suffering, and to somehow 'separate' ourselves out from it, and not let ourselves get distracted by it all ( as I most certainly do at times )........Jesus calls it a light burden, so once we are yoked to Him properly, we do not carry that load alone and we can go on stepping a little lighter, smiling a little wider and blessing with out mouths a little easier....

 

[bbyrd009]

Well you're right on the money here....They do not mix...It's like Jesus said :" You cannot put new wine into old wine skins."....The religious are trying to fit Jesus into the old law of sin and death...

ah well we prolly think somewhat differently there; i like the Law of sin and death just fine. Much better than the doctrine of Original Sin. The Law is still in full effect imo, if one does not follow Christ.

If you sin and do not rebound you will still die, as we can observe of anyone being evil without remorse; their stated position on God notwithstanding. Jesus will not save you if you do ppl wrong and do not change iow