Our hope for the Future

[Trekson]

I've been reading through the thread, you are doing well defending the view I have.
Romans 11 is a key chapter that distinquishes Israel from Gentile believers. God is not done with Israel, "all Israel will be saved" ( which is the remnant you mentioned on Zech. 12 &13).
What I have come to realize in the last few years is that this "Israel that will be saved, happens after he rapture of then Church. It has to, otherwise therenwould be none left to repopulate the earth.
When returns, every eye will see him "and they will mourn". Why would they mourn. Unbelievers mourn because they realize all of a sudden the Jesus is the Messiah they have been waiting for for thousands of years and and feel shame. And asude from the Jews (likely 5 million, which is 1/3), there will be many Gentiles whobdid notnreceive the Mark of the Beast and were on the fence about Christ - these left behind also will be kicking themselves for their lives of follish resistance and finally repent. So Israel is not the only group that will repolulate the earth. Confirmation of this is the fact that all the nations of the world come and visit Jesus in Jerusalem during the Millennial Kingdom. ( see Isaiah 2:2-4 ; Zechaiah 14:6-21)
Also Zephaniah 3:11

I'm glad to hear there are others who see these things as I do.

 

[Trekson]

It was still as pristine and death free as the garden of Eden,
In the same way the New Jerusalen comes down onto a pristine NHNE.


Rev 21
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away (vanished), and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, arrayed like a bride adorned for her husband; 3 and then I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “See! The tabernacle of God is among men, and He will live among them, and they will be His people, and God Himself will be with them [as their God,] 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be death; there will no longer be sorrow and anguish, or crying, or pain; for the former order of things has passed away.”

5 And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also He said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true [they are accurate, incorruptible, and trustworthy].” 6 And He said to me, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the one who thirsts I will give [water] from the fountain of the water of life without cost.

7 He who overcomes [the world by adhering faithfully to Christ Jesus as Lord and Savior] will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8 But as for the cowards and unbelieving and abominable [who are devoid of character and personal integrity and practice or tolerate immorality], and murderers, and sorcerers [with intoxicating drugs], and idolaters and occultists [who practice and teach false religions], and all the liars [who knowingly deceive and twist truth], their part will be in the lake that blazes with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”


The one who sits on the throne Is Jesus, who said this very thing in matt 25.


31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory and majesty and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 3
2 All the nations will be gathered before Him [for judgment]; and He will separate them from one another, as a shepherd separates his sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right [the place of honor], and the goats on His left [the place of rejection].

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father [you favored of God, appointed to eternal salvation], inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

41 “Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Leave Me, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels (demons);
42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me [with help and ministering care].’ 44 Then they also [in their turn] will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or as a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will reply to them, ‘I assure you and most solemnly say to you, to the extent that you did not do it for one of the least of these [my followers], you did not do it for Me.’

46 Then these [unbelieving people] will go away into eternal (unending) punishment, but those who are righteous and in right standing with God [will go, by His remarkable grace] into eternal (unending) life.”

Only remarking on these words, "It was still as pristine and death free as the garden of Eden," The bible says in Gen.1:2a - "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep." That is the exact opposite.

 

[Truth7t7]

I've been reading through the thread, you are doing well defending the view I have.
Romans 11 is a key chapter that distinquishes Israel from Gentile believers. God is not done with Israel, "all Israel will be saved" ( which is the remnant you mentioned on Zech. 12 &13).
What I have come to realize in the last few years is that this "Israel that will be saved, happens after he rapture of then Church. It has to, otherwise therenwould be none left to repopulate the earth.
When returns, every eye will see him "and they will mourn". Why would they mourn. Unbelievers mourn because they realize all of a sudden the Jesus is the Messiah they have been waiting for for thousands of years and and feel shame. And asude from the Jews (likely 5 million, which is 1/3), there will be many Gentiles whobdid notnreceive the Mark of the Beast and were on the fence about Christ - these left behind also will be kicking themselves for their lives of follish resistance and finally repent. So Israel is not the only group that will repolulate the earth. Confirmation of this is the fact that all the nations of the world come and visit Jesus in Jerusalem during the Millennial Kingdom. ( see Isaiah 2:2-4 ; Zechaiah 14:6-21)
Also Zephaniah 3:11

Ron you have been shown "Several Times" that Jesus Christ returns in fire and final judgment (The End)

You and many others give complete disregard to the Lord's fire in Judgement at his return, you have a pre-determined bias to maintain your belief, that a literal 1,000 year kingdom will take place, that's found no place in scripture

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[Truth7t7]

I've been reading through the thread, you are doing well defending the view I have.
Romans 11 is a key chapter that distinquishes Israel from Gentile believers. God is not done with Israel, "all Israel will be saved" ( which is the remnant you mentioned on Zech. 12 &13).
What I have come to realize in the last few years is that this "Israel that will be saved, happens after he rapture of then Church. It has to, otherwise therenwould be none left to repopulate the earth.
When returns, every eye will see him "and they will mourn". Why would they mourn. Unbelievers mourn because they realize all of a sudden the Jesus is the Messiah they have been waiting for for thousands of years and and feel shame. And asude from the Jews (likely 5 million, which is 1/3), there will be many Gentiles whobdid notnreceive the Mark of the Beast and were on the fence about Christ - these left behind also will be kicking themselves for their lives of follish resistance and finally repent. So Israel is not the only group that will repolulate the earth. Confirmation of this is the fact that all the nations of the world come and visit Jesus in Jerusalem during the Millennial Kingdom. ( see Isaiah 2:2-4 ; Zechaiah 14:6-21)
Also Zephaniah 3:11

Ron you have been shown "Several Times" that Jesus Christ returns in fire and final judgment (The End)

You as many others give complete disregard to the Lord's fire in Judgement at his return, you have a pre-determined bias to maintain your belief that a literal 1,000 year kingdom will take place, that's found no place in script

That is not what it is saying. Nothing in that scrip is implying every promise God ever made. There were promises made for keeping the law, there were many other promises regarding things outside of the law. The NC replaces the OC and the promises that went along w/ that particular covenant regarding the law and yes those promises are better. But the other promises about subjects that didn't include the law remain.

There are no future promises to a National Ethnic People "Israel" as you suggest

 

[Trekson]

Here is a description of the 144,000 which extols Christ, His Church, and His Great Salvation through the ages.

Immeasurably more grand and glorious than a crew of sex-starved Jews.

The Church and the 144,000

Revelation 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – His Church:

2 Corinthians 1:21-22
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.


The Revelation 7 passage is therefore conveying the insight that the OT Israelitish faithful saints of God are included under the NT banner of the Church. This is further confirmed by the meanings of the names of the listed tribes and substitutes (Levi and Joseph replacing Dan and Ephraim), describing spiritual qualities and experiences of those who comprise the Church:

• Judah means “praise” (Gen 29:35)
• Reuben means “see, a Son” (Gen 29:32)
• Gad means “fortunate” (Gen 30:11)
• Asher means “happy” (Gen 30:13)
• Naphtali means “wrestling” (Gen 30:8)
• Manasseh means “forgetting” (Gen 41:51)
• Simeon means “heard” (Gen 29:33)
• Levi means “attached” (Gen 29:34)
• Issachar means “wages” (Gen 30:18)
• Zebulon means “dwelling” (Gen 30:20)
• Joseph means “He will add” (Gen 30:24)
• Benjamin means “Son of the right hand” (Gen 35:17–18)

Similarly, the meanings of the names of Dan and Ephraim convey the reasons for their exclusion:

• Dan means “a serpent by the way”(Genesis 49:17)

Satan in the guise of the serpent was responsible for the fall of mankind in Genesis 3, and for the bruising of Messiah's heel in Scripture's first recorded prophecy of Genesis 3:15. It was the same serpent Satan whose head Messiah bruised at Calvary.

• Ephraim means “fruitful in the land of mine affliction” (Genesis 41:52)

The reference to “the land of mine affliction” in Ephraim's name's meaning is to that of Egypt, which in Scripture is both a literal and spiritual reality and symbol of bondage. But the Church, God's Chosen People, do not inhabit a land of spiritual affliction and bondage. Rather, they inhabit the Heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Sion (Hebrews 12:22,23), located in the Heavenly Country that God has prepared for the faithful (Hebrews 11:16).

Of additional significance is the order in which the names are presented, differing from the usual presentation by order of birth. In particular, Judah appears first, in recognition of its role as the tribal progenitor of Christ, the Lion of Judah.

While rebellion and apostasy were repetitive afflictions of the OT Israelites, there were still thousands who remained faithful (1 Kings 19:18). Their number is depicted as 12, a scriptural value representing faithfulness; multiplied by 12, representing the faithful from each of the twelve tribes; multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number (Psalms 50:10; Psalms 91:7; Revelation 5:11) of the total faithful in Israel; thus, 144,000.

Revelation 14 continues the descriptions further reflecting the qualities and experiences of the redeemed – the Church. Absent here is any mention of tribal, ethnic, or other distinctions, thus conveying the reality of the inclusivity and unity of the NT Church which now embraces both Israelite and Gentile. Its number can also be depicted as 12, representing faithfulness; multipled by 12 representing the 12 faithful apostles, who with the prophets comprise the foundation of the NT church, with Christ as the Chief Cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20); multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number of the total faithful in the NT Church; thus, also 144,000.

The NT Church's inclusivity and unity are declared in the following:

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:14
For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall…

Colossians 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.


The 144,00 are described as celibate, meaning that as the Bride of Christ, they are not defiled by adultery with the world (James 4:4). They sing a new song of deliverance and victory. They follow Christ wherever He goes. Their residence is heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Zion. (Hebrews 12:22)

No doubt about it…the Church is written all over the 144,000.

Only in one's mind is a word reserved for a single purpose. Many believe the word "saints" only pertains to Israel but it used almost twice as much to describe the church then it does Israel. Guess what the scroll was "sealed" with 7 seals, are they 7 members of the church wrapped around throughout it? The word "sealed" is used several time in the OT. It is used in John 6:27 regarding Jews "before" there was an "all inclusive" church. Don't forget the church consisted of only Jewish believers for several years before it was offered unto us gentiles. I think God can work anyway he wants and he has the perogative to seal national Israeli for a different destiny if he wants to.

 

[Trekson]

Ron you have been shown "Several Times" that Jesus Christ returns in fire and final judgment (The End)

You and many others give complete disregard to the Lord's fire in Judgement at his return, you have a pre-determined bias to maintain your belief, that a literal 1,000 year kingdom will take place, that's found no place in scripture

Jesus Is The Lord

So you don't think there can be more than one time of judgmental fire, more than one earthquake, more that one large hail storm (which is ice, btw, and not fire) or more than one epic battle? Try reading a little history and see how often the world repeats itself throughout the ages. Right now America is following in Rome's footsteps quite closely on the way to our similar downfall. Historically, America was "the Promised Land" for those seeking religious freedom.

 

[Truth7t7]

So you don't think there can be more than one time of judgmental fire, more than one earthquake, more that one large hail storm (which is ice, btw, and not fire) or more than one epic battle? Try reading a little history and see how often the world repeats itself throughout the ages. Right now America is following in Rome's footsteps quite closely on the way to our similar downfall. Historically, America was "the Promised Land" for those seeking religious freedom.

Scripture teaches of one future final battle, one future second coming in the Lord's fire in Judgement

You and many others disregard scriptural truth, because you and others have a pre-determined bias in maintaining beliefs and teachings of a Millennial Kingdom on this earth found no place in scripture, it's that simple

Jesus returns in fire and final judgment (The End) there won't be a Millennial Kingdom on this earth following, it's a fabricated man made fairy tale

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[jeffweeder]

Only remarking on these words, "It was still as pristine and death free as the garden of Eden," The bible says in Gen.1:2a - "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep." That is the exact opposite.

You are ignoring the obvious.
Once God went to work in creation week he concluded after every day that it was good.
When he had completed it, he saw all that he had made and said it was very good.
God has nothing good to say regarding sin, death and the curse.


Gen 1:2b-
The Spirit of God was moving (hovering, brooding) over the face of the waters. 3 And God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good (pleasing, useful) and He affirmed and sustained it; and God separated the light [distinguishing it] from the darkness. 5 And God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.

6 And God said, “Let there be an expanse [of the sky] in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters [below the expanse] from the waters [above the expanse].” 7 And God made the expanse [of sky] and separated the waters which were under the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so [just as He commanded]. 8 God called the expanse [of sky] heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.

9 Then God said, “Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place [of standing, pooling together], and let the dry land appear”; and it was so. 10 God called the dry land earth, and the gathering of the waters He called seas; and God saw that this was good (pleasing, useful) and He affirmed and sustained it. 11 So God said, “Let the earth sprout [tender] vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit according to (limited to, consistent with) their kind, whose seed is in them upon the earth”; and it was so. 12 The earth sprouted and abundantly produced vegetation, plants yielding seed according to their kind, and trees bearing fruit with seed in them, according to their kind; and God saw that it was good and He affirmed and sustained it. 13 And there was evening and there was morning, a third day.

14 Then God said, “Let there be light-bearers (sun, moon, stars) in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be useful for signs (tokens) [of God’s provident care], and for marking seasons, days, and years; 15 and let them be useful as lights in the expanse of the heavens to provide light on the earth”; and it was so, [just as He commanded]. 16 God made the two great lights—the greater light (the sun) to rule the day, and the lesser light (the moon) to rule the night; He made the [galaxies of] stars also [that is, all the amazing wonders in the heavens]. 17 God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to provide light upon the earth, 18 to rule over the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good and He affirmed and sustained it. 19 And there was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.

20 Then God said, “Let the waters swarm and abundantly produce living creatures, and let birds soar above the earth in the open expanse of the heavens.” 21 God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind; and God saw that it was good and He affirmed and sustained it. 22 And God blessed them, saying, “Be fruitful, multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.” 23 And there was evening and there was morning, a fifth day.

24 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to (limited to, consistent with) their kind: livestock, crawling things, and wild animals of the earth according to their kinds”; and it was so [because He had spoken them into creation]. 25 So God made the wild animals of the earth according to their kind, and the cattle according to their kind, and everything that creeps and crawls on the earth according to its kind; and God saw that it was good (pleasing, useful) and He affirmed and sustained it.

26 Then God said, “Let Us (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) make man in Our image, according to Our likeness [not physical, but a spiritual personality and moral likeness]; and let them have complete authority over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, the cattle, and over the entire earth, and over everything that creeps and crawls on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image, in the image and likeness of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 And God blessed them [granting them certain authority] and said to them, “Be fruitful, multiply, and fill the earth, and subjugate it [putting it under your power]; and rule over (dominate) the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and every living thing that moves upon the earth.” 29 So God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of the entire earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you; 30 and to all the animals on the earth and to every bird of the air and to everything that moves on the ground—to everything in which there is the breath of life—I have given every green plant for food”; and it was so [because He commanded it]. 31 God saw everything that He had made, and behold, it was very good and He validated it completely. And there was evening and there was morning, a sixth day.

 

[covenantee]

That is not what it is saying. Nothing in that scrip is implying every promise God ever made. There were promises made for keeping the law, there were many other promises regarding things outside of the law. The NC replaces the OC and the promises that went along w/ that particular covenant regarding the law and yes those promises are better. But the other promises about subjects that didn't include the law remain.

The promises to Abraham, David, et al, are promissory clauses of the Old Testament, not separate testaments themselves.

If the New Testament applied only to the law, then there would be multiple other New Testaments applying specifically to the Abrahamic, Davidic, et al, promises. But there are not.

There is one Old Testament, and one New Testament. There can be only one Testament in force and effect at any time. It is the New, as Hebrews makes plain. The jurisprudence which governs testaments/wills today is based on the ancient Biblical principles.

And under those principles, the New Testament and its better promises in their entirety, transcend and eclipse the Old Testament and its promises.

And all of the promises are fulfilled in Christ (2 Corinthians 1:20; Galatians 3:16).

I'm still waiting for you to substantiate, from historical orthodox Christianity between the 1st and 18th centuries, your claims that the New Covenant is incomplete, and that it applies only to the law.

I can wait for as long as it takes.

 

[covenantee]

Only in one's mind is a word reserved for a single purpose. Many believe the word "saints" only pertains to Israel but it used almost twice as much to describe the church then it does Israel. Guess what the scroll was "sealed" with 7 seals, are they 7 members of the church wrapped around throughout it? The word "sealed" is used several time in the OT. It is used in John 6:27 regarding Jews "before" there was an "all inclusive" church. Don't forget the church consisted of only Jewish believers for several years before it was offered unto us gentiles. I think God can work anyway he wants and he has the perogative to seal national Israeli for a different destiny if he wants to.

John 6
27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

It is the Son of man whom God has sealed.

Nothing to do with Jews.

There is no destiny for anyone, Israeli or otherwise, outside of Christ and His Church.

 

[jeffweeder]

So you don't think there can be more than one time of judgmental fire,

2Pet 3
7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly people.

Act 17
30 Therefore God overlooked and disregarded the former ages of ignorance; but now He commands all people everywhere to repent [that is, to change their old way of thinking, to regret their past sins, and to seek God’s purpose for their lives], 31 because He has set a day when He will judge the inhabited world in righteousness by a Man whom He has appointed and destined for that task, and He has provided credible proof to everyone by raising Him from the dead.”

 

[Timtofly]

Here is a description of the 144,000 which extols Christ, His Church, and His Great Salvation through the ages.

Immeasurably more grand and glorious than a crew of sex-starved Jews.

The Church and the 144,000

Revelation 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – His Church:

2 Corinthians 1:21-22
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.


The Revelation 7 passage is therefore conveying the insight that the OT Israelitish faithful saints of God are included under the NT banner of the Church. This is further confirmed by the meanings of the names of the listed tribes and substitutes (Levi and Joseph replacing Dan and Ephraim), describing spiritual qualities and experiences of those who comprise the Church:

• Judah means “praise” (Gen 29:35)
• Reuben means “see, a Son” (Gen 29:32)
• Gad means “fortunate” (Gen 30:11)
• Asher means “happy” (Gen 30:13)
• Naphtali means “wrestling” (Gen 30:8)
• Manasseh means “forgetting” (Gen 41:51)
• Simeon means “heard” (Gen 29:33)
• Levi means “attached” (Gen 29:34)
• Issachar means “wages” (Gen 30:18)
• Zebulon means “dwelling” (Gen 30:20)
• Joseph means “He will add” (Gen 30:24)
• Benjamin means “Son of the right hand” (Gen 35:17–18)

Similarly, the meanings of the names of Dan and Ephraim convey the reasons for their exclusion:

• Dan means “a serpent by the way”(Genesis 49:17)

Satan in the guise of the serpent was responsible for the fall of mankind in Genesis 3, and for the bruising of Messiah's heel in Scripture's first recorded prophecy of Genesis 3:15. It was the same serpent Satan whose head Messiah bruised at Calvary.

• Ephraim means “fruitful in the land of mine affliction” (Genesis 41:52)

The reference to “the land of mine affliction” in Ephraim's name's meaning is to that of Egypt, which in Scripture is both a literal and spiritual reality and symbol of bondage. But the Church, God's Chosen People, do not inhabit a land of spiritual affliction and bondage. Rather, they inhabit the Heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Sion (Hebrews 12:22,23), located in the Heavenly Country that God has prepared for the faithful (Hebrews 11:16).

Of additional significance is the order in which the names are presented, differing from the usual presentation by order of birth. In particular, Judah appears first, in recognition of its role as the tribal progenitor of Christ, the Lion of Judah.

While rebellion and apostasy were repetitive afflictions of the OT Israelites, there were still thousands who remained faithful (1 Kings 19:18). Their number is depicted as 12, a scriptural value representing faithfulness; multiplied by 12, representing the faithful from each of the twelve tribes; multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number (Psalms 50:10; Psalms 91:7; Revelation 5:11) of the total faithful in Israel; thus, 144,000.

Revelation 14 continues the descriptions further reflecting the qualities and experiences of the redeemed – the Church. Absent here is any mention of tribal, ethnic, or other distinctions, thus conveying the reality of the inclusivity and unity of the NT Church which now embraces both Israelite and Gentile. Its number can also be depicted as 12, representing faithfulness; multipled by 12 representing the 12 faithful apostles, who with the prophets comprise the foundation of the NT church, with Christ as the Chief Cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20); multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number of the total faithful in the NT Church; thus, also 144,000.

The NT Church's inclusivity and unity are declared in the following:

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:14
For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall…

Colossians 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.


The 144,00 are described as celibate, meaning that as the Bride of Christ, they are not defiled by adultery with the world (James 4:4). They sing a new song of deliverance and victory. They follow Christ wherever He goes. Their residence is heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Zion. (Hebrews 12:22)

No doubt about it…the Church is written all over the 144,000.

Especially since human reasoning always sounds better than Gods Word?

I will take God's Word over human theological feel good rhetoric.

How about God's Atonement seals many of Adam's Offspring? The NT church, the OT redeemed, and a future set of 144k of Israel directly chosen by God?



Instead of telling God who is who, let God's Word speak all by Himself.

 

[covenantee]

Especially since human reasoning always sounds better than Gods Word?

I will take God's Word over human theological feel good rhetoric.

How about God's Atonement seals many of Adam's Offspring? The NT church, the OT redeemed, and a future set of 144k of Israel directly chosen by God?



Instead of telling God who is who, let God's Word speak all by Himself.

How about Scripture instead of nothing more than your opinions?

The last thing I'd want would be for you to feel good.

If you have Scripture disproving the Scripture that I've presented, then please present yours.

 

[Trekson]

Ron you have been shown "Several Times" that Jesus Christ returns in fire and final judgment (The End)

You as many others give complete disregard to the Lord's fire in Judgement at his return, you have a pre-determined bias to maintain your belief that a literal 1,000 year kingdom will take place, that's found no place in script

There are no future promises to a National Ethnic People "Israel" as you suggest

There are none so blind as they who will not see.

 

[Trekson]

Scripture teaches of one future final battle, one future second coming in the Lord's fire in Judgement

You and many others disregard scriptural truth, because you and others have a pre-determined bias in maintaining beliefs and teachings of a Millennial Kingdom on this earth found no place in scripture, it's that simple

Jesus returns in fire and final judgment (The End) there won't be a Millennial Kingdom on this earth following, it's a fabricated man made fairy tale

Jesus Is The Lord

or someone is being deceived by false teachings or worse yet teaching false doctrines.

 

[Trekson]

You are ignoring the obvious.
Once God went to work in creation week he concluded after every day that it was good.
When he had completed it, he saw all that he had made and said it was very good.
God has nothing good to say regarding sin, death and the curse.


Gen 1:2b-
The Spirit of God was moving (hovering, brooding) over the face of the waters. 3 And God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good (pleasing, useful) and He affirmed and sustained it; and God separated the light [distinguishing it] from the darkness. 5 And God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.

6 And God said, “Let there be an expanse [of the sky] in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters [below the expanse] from the waters [above the expanse].” 7 And God made the expanse [of sky] and separated the waters which were under the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so [just as He commanded]. 8 God called the expanse [of sky] heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.

9 Then God said, “Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place [of standing, pooling together], and let the dry land appear”; and it was so. 10 God called the dry land earth, and the gathering of the waters He called seas; and God saw that this was good (pleasing, useful) and He affirmed and sustained it. 11 So God said, “Let the earth sprout [tender] vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit according to (limited to, consistent with) their kind, whose seed is in them upon the earth”; and it was so. 12 The earth sprouted and abundantly produced vegetation, plants yielding seed according to their kind, and trees bearing fruit with seed in them, according to their kind; and God saw that it was good and He affirmed and sustained it. 13 And there was evening and there was morning, a third day.

14 Then God said, “Let there be light-bearers (sun, moon, stars) in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be useful for signs (tokens) [of God’s provident care], and for marking seasons, days, and years; 15 and let them be useful as lights in the expanse of the heavens to provide light on the earth”; and it was so, [just as He commanded]. 16 God made the two great lights—the greater light (the sun) to rule the day, and the lesser light (the moon) to rule the night; He made the [galaxies of] stars also [that is, all the amazing wonders in the heavens]. 17 God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to provide light upon the earth, 18 to rule over the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good and He affirmed and sustained it. 19 And there was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.

20 Then God said, “Let the waters swarm and abundantly produce living creatures, and let birds soar above the earth in the open expanse of the heavens.” 21 God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind; and God saw that it was good and He affirmed and sustained it. 22 And God blessed them, saying, “Be fruitful, multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.” 23 And there was evening and there was morning, a fifth day.

24 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to (limited to, consistent with) their kind: livestock, crawling things, and wild animals of the earth according to their kinds”; and it was so [because He had spoken them into creation]. 25 So God made the wild animals of the earth according to their kind, and the cattle according to their kind, and everything that creeps and crawls on the earth according to its kind; and God saw that it was good (pleasing, useful) and He affirmed and sustained it.

26 Then God said, “Let Us (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) make man in Our image, according to Our likeness [not physical, but a spiritual personality and moral likeness]; and let them have complete authority over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, the cattle, and over the entire earth, and over everything that creeps and crawls on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image, in the image and likeness of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 And God blessed them [granting them certain authority] and said to them, “Be fruitful, multiply, and fill the earth, and subjugate it [putting it under your power]; and rule over (dominate) the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and every living thing that moves upon the earth.” 29 So God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of the entire earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you; 30 and to all the animals on the earth and to every bird of the air and to everything that moves on the ground—to everything in which there is the breath of life—I have given every green plant for food”; and it was so [because He commanded it]. 31 God saw everything that He had made, and behold, it was very good and He validated it completely. And there was evening and there was morning, a sixth day.

The word we are speaking of is "foundation"...The foundation is the beginning...This was God's starting foundation, "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep." Everything was built upon that reality. It was in no way pristine.

 

[Trekson]

The promises to Abraham, David, et al, are promissory clauses of the Old Testament, not separate testaments themselves.

If the New Testament applied only to the law, then there would be multiple other New Testaments applying specifically to the Abrahamic, Davidic, et al, promises. But there are not.

There is one Old Testament, and one New Testament. There can be only one Testament in force and effect at any time. It is the New, as Hebrews makes plain. The jurisprudence which governs testaments/wills today is based on the ancient Biblical principles.

And under those principles, the New Testament and its better promises in their entirety, transcend and eclipse the Old Testament and its promises.

And all of the promises are fulfilled in Christ (2 Corinthians 1:20; Galatians 3:16).

I'm still waiting for you to substantiate, from historical orthodox Christianity between the 1st and 18th centuries, your claims that the New Covenant is incomplete, and that it applies only to the law.

I can wait for as long as it takes.

The covenants are separate from each other, they are NOT clauses...lol

 

[Trekson]

John 6
27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

It is the Son of man whom God has sealed.

Nothing to do with Jews.

There is no destiny for anyone, Israeli or otherwise, outside of Christ and His Church.

I never said the 144,000 were outside of Christ. Every single Israeli that enters the millennium will be blood bought born-again believers. The law will never return. And, imo, you are reading it wrong. You should understand it like this...he who eats the meat which endures unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give you, for him (who? He who eats the meat, not the one that gives it.) hath God the Father sealed. (Why are they sealed? Because the "meat is the gospel" in which they believed and has given them eternal life) Here's the plain, simple fact. Jews were sealed under the gospel first, then gentiles were added in. When the time of the gentiles are over and at the rapture/resurrection, it will go back to only Israeli's being sealed again but as believers in Christ who were destined for that time in God's plan.

 

[Trekson]

2Pet 3
7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly people.

Act 17
30 Therefore God overlooked and disregarded the former ages of ignorance; but now He commands all people everywhere to repent [that is, to change their old way of thinking, to regret their past sins, and to seek God’s purpose for their lives], 31 because He has set a day when He will judge the inhabited world in righteousness by a Man whom He has appointed and destined for that task, and He has provided credible proof to everyone by raising Him from the dead.”

2 Pet. post mill, Acts 17 the 70th week. The word "day" according to Strong's also means "age, a period of time, always, forever, while, years." There is space to be flexible according to what the rest of scripture teaches. If one's understanding of any particular verse seems contrary to what the rest of scripture says regarding that topic, then it is always one's understanding that is wrong and never the scripture.

 

[covenantee]

The covenants are separate from each other, they are NOT clauses...lol

Then why are they not in their own individual testaments rather than combined under a single Testament?

They are fully analogous to the testamentary/promissory statements and clauses, spelling out the bequests for heirs, which have characterized Wills and Testaments for millennia.

They get the last laugh.