Paul taught that revelation 20:4 is a present reality

[ewq1938]

You are the one calling it a failure in logic, if certain criteria are not met.

Jerusalem will be at peace at the Second Coming

No, it won't be. The greatest earthquake in human history will be shaking it badly and the marked people there will be terrified and will be screaming and crying etc. We see this in the 6th seal and the vials. There won't be peace there until the Millennium.

 

[Timtofly]

Maybe one day we'll put this Pre-Mil impostor-of-a-doctrine to rest for good.

At the Second Coming. Then you all get to sit in the corner waiting for the Millennium to end. Then you can exercise that imagination, with nothing else to do.

 

[Timtofly]

No, it won't be. The greatest earthquake in human history will be shaking it badly and the marked people there will be terrified and will be screaming and crying etc. We see this in the 6th seal and the vials. There won't be peace there until the Millennium.

That earthquake is not going to last years on end. That earthquake is going to bring healing to the desert after it stops.

 

[ewq1938]

That earthquake is not going to last years on end.

Has anyone said it would?

 

[Waiting on him]

I'll name them all. Every single event Christ spoke about while sitting on the mount of olives has not happened yet.

You believe Jesus was speaking too you in his discourse?

 

[Timtofly]

Has anyone said it would?

You claimed Jesus could not bring peace to Jerusalem because of an earthquake. No one states peace during the earthquake. The peace comes after the earthquake. Since I assume you think the earthquake should not last for more than an hour, why do you reject peace when that earthquake is over?

I said there would be peace after the Prince of peace is here, not necessarily peace only during an earthquake.

Obviously peace and earthquake are not synonymous. You are the one declaring a "not very long earthquake", instead of the lasting peace in Jerusalem after the earthquake. Unless your earthquake is going to last for years, why replace the peace with this earthquake?

 

[bbyrd009]

Revelation 20:4
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


In the verses below Paul spoke in current and past tense stating that we even though alive have been already seated with Christ spiritually thus we reign on thrones with Jesus now


Ephesians 2:4-6

4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

amen!
but as im sure you are discovering, you cant mix milk and meat, so to speak

 

[Marty fox]

The Little Horn, Beast of Rev. 13, the Man of Sin are all the same person, a man. I rendered your Rev. 20:4 point to be a non point. If you had read the verse more clearly you would have understood it could only be those living during the 70th week.

Now you do not understand the Anti-Christ is a CATCH ALL for his many (33 or so) names. Get it together man.

My point is that the man of sin and the sea beast are the same which is nothing like the biblical description of the antichrist. Read the four verses below which are the only verses in the entire Bible that mentions the antichrist and you will see they are nothing like the descriptions of the beast or the man of sin

1 John 2:18
18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.

1 John 2:22
22 Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—
denying the Father and the Son.

1 John 4:3
3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

2 John 1:7
I say this because many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.

The antichrist is much different from the sea beast in the book of Revelation. The sea beast purpose is to rule the earth to be worshipped as god, destroy Babylon the great and to try to wipeout the church.

The antichrist was already on the earth in Johns days and it’s purpose to deceive and to divert people away from the Messiah Jesus the Christ. The antichrist is more like the land beast from the book of Revelation also known as the false prophet. The antichrist is also not one but many a deceiving spirit inside people.

The perfect description of the antichrist at that time was apostate Israel. The Pharisees were supposed to point the Jews to their messiah but instead they turned the people from Jesus and directed them to Rome and had the Jews state “we have no king but Cesar” That is who John was describing in his epistles.

 

[Marty fox]

Paul was not wrong. Your use of his words, however, is most definitely wrong. Scripture doesn't contradict itself, but you are making scripture contradict what is written in Ecclesiastes and in other books about how no one has any awareness of anything when they die. Furthermore, both Testaments makes it clear that your theology has no biblical support:





If the patriarchs, the prophets, and the other followers of God in the OT have to wait until Jesus' return to receive their inheritance like everybody else, then common logic says Rev. 20:1-4 isn't a present reality.


The obvious problem with this argument is that you assume Jesus is the only possible contender because He is the most notable and significant descendant of David. The argument is extremely problematic for 2 huge reasons:

1. Jesus was born in the Perez line(Matt. 1:3, Luk. 3:33).

2. God prophesied in Eze. 21:25-26 that He would punish Zedekiah for his rejection of His laws by removing David's throne entirely from the Perez line and bestowing it onto the bloodline of Perez's brother Zerah(Gen. 38:27-30, Mat. 1:3). That was fulfilled back in Jeremiah's day.

The problem with people who contend that Jesus is on David's throne is that they fail to realize that God used Zedekiah's daughters(Jer. 41:10, 43:6) to create royal descendants for David through Zerah's line. It is those descendants who have been sitting on David's throne throughout the centuries, not Jesus. Ownership of David's throne will return to Perez's line when Jesus' returns to rule from Jerusalem.

This changed at the cross Jesus did say to the thief on the cross “today your will be with me in paradise”

See what Matthew said what happened at the cross and resurrection

Matthew 27:51-53
51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

That was the first resurrection

 

[Marty fox]

The antichrist is the false prophet not the ten kingdomed empire he rules.

Well he is more like the false prophet than the sea beast but it is a spirit and many

 

[Marty fox]

I have read what John said about the Antichrist and those of his day. The sons are the same now as thier fathers were then. The kingdom shall be taken from the little horn and given to a nation bringing forth the fruit thereof.

Daniel 7:18 But the saints of the Most High will receive the kingdom and possess it forever--yes, forever and ever.'

I believe that Antiochus Epehanies was the little horn there is a great case for this

 

[shilohsfoal]

I believe that Antiochus Epehanies was the little horn there is a great case for this

I know the Pharisees tryed to make a case but there were to many holes in thier case.
But if hidesite is 20/20 as they say you shouldn't have any problem answering a couple of questions concerning the case you are attempting to make.

According to Daniel, God comes and gives the kingdom to the saints who the little horn oppressed.
#1-What year were the saints given the kingdom?

Daniel 7:22 KJV: Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

#2-what 3 1/2 year period were the saints oppressed?
Daniel 7:25 KJV: And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

 

[Timtofly]

amen!
but as im sure you are discovering, you cant mix milk and meat, so to speak

If a soul comes to life, is that the body that was dead or the soul? If a soul never dies but the physical body is dead yet physically active, what is actually dead?

 

[Timtofly]

This changed at the cross Jesus did say to the thief on the cross “today your will be with me in paradise”

See what Matthew said what happened at the cross and resurrection

Matthew 27:51-53
51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

That was the first resurrection

Lazarus was the first first resurrection. The Cross was the second instance of a first resurrection. All who enter Paradise as an ongoing phenomenon experience a first resurrection. The first resurrection is changing from Adam's dead corruptible physical body to God's permanent incorruptible physical body. 2 Corinthians 5:1 should make that perfectly clear. When the soul of a redeemed human leaves Adam's flesh it immediately enters God's permanent incorruptible physical body. All firsts are physical. The first birth is physical. The first death is physical. The first resurrection is physical. That is what the Cross was all about. Those OT redeemed were waiting in Abraham's bosom as souls. They were waiting for that first physical resurrection. Except Lazarus. Lazarus was called out of the grave days before the Cross as proof, the Cross would do the same for all in Abraham's bosom. And to prove to the Jews, it was a literal physical resurrection, Jesus waited until the 4th day. Lazarus was not a zombie in a dead physical body. Lazarus had the complete first resurrection. A permanent incorruptible physical body. Lazarus went to Paradise when all the OT ascended with Jesus on Sunday after Jesus talked to Mary. John 20:14-18

"And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away. Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had spoken these things unto her."

Jesus was about to ascend at that moment to present the firstfruits, the OT redeemed to God. This was when they physically entered Paradise. Lazarus would not stay on earth after experiencing the first resurrection. Neither would any coming out of their graves that week.

Yes, the thief on the Cross was the first NT redeemed soul. Dying hours after the Cross and the resurrection from Abraham's bosom, the thief went immediately to Paradise. The exact same thing happened to Stephen when he was stoned to death. And all who peacefully pass over experience the same first resurrection. The thief literally entered Paradise days before the OT redeemed. He entered that day, while the rest waited until Sunday.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Revelation 20:4
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


In the verses below Paul spoke in current and past tense stating that we even though alive have been already seated with Christ spiritually thus we reign on thrones with Jesus now


Ephesians 2:4-6

4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

Not even close!

Read carefully. teh beast has not even taken control yet and his mark has not been commanded yet! And the church is now close to 2,000 years old!

 

[Truth7t7]

I believe that Antiochus Epehanies was the little horn there is a great case for this

I disagree, as has been shown several times the (Little Horn) will be on earth to witness the "Future" second coming and final judgement

Antioch Epiphanies in 167BC don't fit the ticket of the human man seen below

Daniel 7:8-11KJV
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

 

[Truth7t7]

I

You believe Jesus was speaking too you in his discourse?

Jesus was speaking prophetically to the future church that would be eyewitnesses of his future second coming

1.) What is near, even at the doors "future" second coming

2.) What is the day and hour no man knows, "future" second coming

(The Future Second Coming)

Matthew 24:33-37KJV
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

 

[ewq1938]

Well he is more like the false prophet than the sea beast but it is a spirit and many

The false prophet will be a person that has a spirit.

 

[ewq1938]

You believe Jesus was speaking too you in his discourse?

He was speaking about the last generation who would witness his return.

 

[ewq1938]

You claimed Jesus could not bring peace to Jerusalem because of an earthquake. No one states peace during the earthquake. The peace comes after the earthquake. Since I assume you think the earthquake should not last for more than an hour, why do you reject peace when that earthquake is over?

I didn't. You don't read very well. I literally said peace would come to Jerusalem in the Millennium.