The Bible is about how God the Father brought forth a nation and a people from whom the savior of the world would come.
Paul: The Law is a Ministration of Death, 2 Cor. 3:7.
- Thread starter Robert Pate
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Bob Estey
Well-Known Member
God chose to reveal himself in that way to those of us that are Christians. Does God have other ways of revealing himself, or does everyone else go to hell?
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
So, you changed your mind?
Here's what you said originally.
Now what?
Both statements are correct. Jesus is the end and the fulfillment of all things.
God has revealed himself through creation so that everyone is without an excuse, Romans 1:18-22.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Are you claiming that there is salvation in recognizing a creator in creation? Is that all there is to it?
If you read the scripture Romans 1:18-32. It implies that man is without an excuse. If a person has remorse for sins they will eventually call on Christ to save them. Remorse is the first step to salvation. A lot of people have no remorse for their evil deeds and continue to do evil.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
That's putting it mildly. Verse 20 ends by saying: "... people are without excuse."
And unfortunately the whole passage falls apart in a logical sense. My question to you
indicated why the conclusion doesn't work. Yet, Christians still love to grab that
apologetic statement, "... people are without excuse.", to make their point.
Typically in response to the "What about those who haven't heard?" question.
So, you can see that this is totally outside the apologetic "proof-text" that Christians depend on.
And even this departure doesn't satisfy the "What about those who haven't heard?" question.
Because you are depending on those with "remorse" to to call on a Christ they have never even heard of.
Can you see why the "... people are without excuse." apologetic statement really doesn't work?
Now what?
According to Scripture, Jesus is the light that "enlightens every man". Paul, writing to Titus, was specific,
Titus 2:11 KJV
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
So then God provides for every person to come to Him, to know Him. Testimonies abound of those who came to know the True God though no one had come to them. Paul asks a question, How can they hear unless someone is sent? This is to proclaim the beauty of those who are sent. But there is another answer, that God may speak to them, and so it is reported.
We are all instructed to seek Him y what we learn of Him from His creation. That He is eternal, that He is all-powerful, that He is God.
And so people are without excuse.
Much love!
Even the one who has never heard Christ named can look at creation, including themself, and come to realize that obviously Someone created all this, and given our knowledge of good and evil, can know they are in the wrong. When we come to that knowledge, we can either try to hide, or know that we are revealed, and hope for mercy. I think it begins there.
Much love!
Even savages know when they have done evil, some are remorseful, some are not. It is the remorseful ones that accept Christ as their savior.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
How does a remorseful "savage" accept Christ as their savior?
There was a time when terms like savage, heathen, pagan, and such were reason enough to for "Christians" to slaughter whole communities.
Just cheers. Keep calm and carry on. You are on the right straight and narrow path. Their eisegesis will lead you to down a strong delusion.
Matthew 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
When Jesus fulfilled the law all of the law was fulfilled. This is why the scripture says, "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness for those that believe" Romans 10:4. If there is no law, there is no sin, Romans 4:15. We establish the law by being "In Christ". God sees his people as perfect and complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10.
Everyone has a conscience, even savages. They know when they have sinned. If they have remorse for their sin and repent, they can be saved.
Missionaries report that savages in remote places on the earth know about Jesus. When asked how they know about Jesus the answer is it is written in the stars.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
On that we agree.
Our conscience is God-given, not church-given. (sorry Bob)
Without the written law there is no understanding of sin.
I've heard of that happening. More the exception than the rule.
You are contradicting yourself. The conscience lets us know when we have sinned. The law confirms it. Some are spiritually dead so they are not convicted of wrong doing. These people are very dangerous.
You are contradicting yourself. The conscience lets us know when we have sinned. The law confirms it. Some are spiritually dead so they are not convicted of wrong doing. These people are very dangerous.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
St. SteVen said:
On that we agree.
Our conscience is God-given, not church-given. (sorry Bob)
Without the written law there is no understanding of sin.
Romans 3:20 NIV
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law;
rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
On that we agree.
Our conscience is God-given, not church-given. (sorry Bob)
Without the written law there is no understanding of sin.
On the contrary, my good fellow.
Romans 3:20 NIV
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law;
rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
I understand your point, but let's focus on the topic at hand - @Robert Pate's statement about the purpose of the Bible. It's important to note that Robert is using the Bible to support his argument, indicating that he views it as a trustworthy source of information about God's will and plan for salvation through Jesus Christ. Whether or not someone has access to the Bible is not relevant to this discussion.
Yes, as Robert pointed out, God has other ways to reveal himself to everyone else. Robert cited Romans chapter one, wherein Paul indicates that creation itself proves the existence of God and his glory. They are without excuse who invent gods of their own.
I would also point out Paul's word in Hebrews chapter 11, wherein Paul asserts that God is granting justification to those who know that God exists and that he is a rewarder of those who seek him. That's it. 1) know God exists, and 2) know him as one who rewards those who seek him.
In other words, though Jesus Christ is the basis of salvation, knowing his name and his story is NOT essential. After all, the Patriarchs didn't know the name of the savior and had no knowledge of his ministry or his death on the cross. And yet God will save them. Why? Because had they known his name and heard the gospel story they would have believed it since they have a heart for God and the truth. In my view, the same is true of those living in remote places on earth who know God exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
You know why Jesus gave the Holy Spirit to the Apostles to help them. The Holy Spirit can get to places where evangelists can't reach.
