Paul was a wolf in sheeps clothing

[Barrd]

Okay....think about this.
Jesus spent something like three and a half years, teaching His disciples. And when He left them, He gave them specific directions to go into all the nations of the world and teach the things He had commanded them.

Now, does it make sense that, a few years later, He would send Paul with an entirely different message? Of course not.

The problem is not whether Paul is an authentic Apostle...the problem is that He has been woefully misunderstood and misinterpreted.

 

[heretoeternity]

Peter confirmed Paul's writings are sometimes hard to understand and are, in fact, misunderstood, to the detriment of the reader 2nd Peter 3..but one should remember Paul followed and taught the scriptures to the end of his life, and paid the price with his life....One can only pray that we will be that loyal to the word of God, under these circumstances...

 

[Barrd]

Peter confirmed Paul's writings are sometimes hard to understand and are, in fact, misunderstood, to the detriment of the reader 2nd Peter 3..but one should remember Paul followed and taught the scriptures to the end of his life, and paid the price with his life....One can only pray that we will be that loyal to the word of God, under these circumstances...

Paul lived and taught the exact same message that Jesus taught.
In other words, Paul obeyed the Law, and taught others to obey the Law.
Yes, Paul taught that we are "not under the law, but under grace"...but what does that mean?

Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

 

[heretoeternity]

What is sin? Apostle John says in 1st John, "sin is transgression of the law"..and Apostle John also said in 1st John.."those that say they know Him and keep not His commandments are liars, and the truth is not in them", and "by this we know we love the children of God, that we keep His commandments and they are not grievous"...

 

[Barrd]

Jesus also says:

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Paul does not contradict Him. Paul teaches respect for the Law.

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Paul himself kept the Law, and also taught others to keep the Law.
Act 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
Act 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
Act 24:16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offence toward God, and toward men.

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

As I have said, he has been grossly misunderstood.

 

[Barrd]

But God did promise a New Covenant, and what we call "grace" is a part of that Covenant:

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

And again:

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

 

[heretoeternity]

The key here is He will write His laws on the hearts and minds of His people...which means His law/commandments are in full force, but instead of just being written on the stone tablets, they are written in spirit in His people as well as the tablets of stone.

 

[StanJ]

Okay....think about this.
Jesus spent something like three and a half years, teaching His disciples. And when He left them, He gave them specific directions to go into all the nations of the world and teach the things He had commanded them.

Now, does it make sense that, a few years later, He would send Paul with an entirely different message? Of course not.

The problem is not whether Paul is an authentic Apostle...the problem is that He has been woefully misunderstood and misinterpreted.

Paul was called to be the Apostle to the Gentiles. The Apostles ministered to the Jews who believed. They were not exclusive to those people, but it was their primary ministry. Jesus personally appointed ALL the Apostles except one, the one that the 11 drew lots on to replace Judas.

 

[heretoeternity]

One of the keys to why many misinterpret and erroneously apply Paul's messages is he appeared to have a communication issue, due to either by interpretation or by actual fact...Peter in 2nd Peter 16 clears this up by noting Paul's shortcomings in the communications department and Peter warns about those who are weak in the scriptures about misinterpreting Paul's writings to "their own destruction"......

 

[Barrd]

Paul was called to be the Apostle to the Gentiles. The Apostles ministered to the Jews who believed. They were not exclusive to those people, but it was their primary ministry. Jesus personally appointed ALL the Apostles except one, the one that the 11 drew lots on to replace Judas.

So, you think Paul had a different message for the Gentiles than the message Jesus had sent His Apostles to "all nations" with?

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world.

Paul was not the one and only Apostle to the Gentiles. All of them witnessed to Gentiles.
Think about it.

 

[Barrd]

One of the keys to why many misinterpret and erroneously apply Paul's messages is he appeared to have a communication issue, due to either by interpretation or by actual fact...Peter in 2nd Peter 16 clears this up by noting Paul's shortcomings in the communications department and Peter warns about those who are weak in the scriptures about misinterpreting Paul's writings to "their own destruction"......

I would say that most people just kinda like the idea of not having to follow any rules. They like to think that Paul's "not under the law, but under grace" means that they don't have to keep the law any more...but that is not what Paul was saying at all.

You are quite right about one thing, though. They wrest the scriptures to their own destruction...

 

[heretoeternity]

It is not me saying it, it is Peter who made the statement, he knew Paul very well, obviously!

 

[Barrd]

2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Thanks for the heads-up, Peter!

 

[FHII]

Alright. Look, I'm not putting words in anyone's mouth or accusing anyone of anything. But let's keeps some things in mind:

1. Peter isn't saying Paul is wrong. In fact, just the opposite.
2. Peter is speaking unlearned and unstable people.
3. Its not a "Paul" problem. These folks do it with all scripture according to Peter.
4. Personal opinion, but Paul is one of the clearest writers of the bible. Its the message of grace thats hard to swallow. He descibed it perfectly and clearly.
5 . The issue Peter is speaking of isn't even directly about grace. Its about preparation for the coming of the Lord.

 

[heretoeternity]

Alright. Look, I'm not putting words in anyone's mouth or accusing anyone of anything. But let's keeps some things in mind:

1. Peter isn't saying Paul is wrong. In fact, just the opposite.
2. Peter is speaking unlearned and unstable people.
3. Its not a "Paul" problem. These folks do it with all scripture according to Peter.
4. Personal opinion, but Paul is one of the clearest writers of the bible. Its the message of grace thats hard to swallow. He descibed it perfectly and clearly.
5 . The issue Peter is speaking of isn't even directly about grace. Its about preparation for the coming of the Lord.









I think you got it figured out rather well....and Peter confirms it....

 

[Barrd]

Alright. Look, I'm not putting words in anyone's mouth or accusing anyone of anything. But let's keeps some things in mind:

1. Peter isn't saying Paul is wrong. In fact, just the opposite.
2. Peter is speaking unlearned and unstable people.
3. Its not a "Paul" problem. These folks do it with all scripture according to Peter.
4. Personal opinion, but Paul is one of the clearest writers of the bible. Its the message of grace thats hard to swallow. He descibed it perfectly and clearly.
5 . The issue Peter is speaking of isn't even directly about grace. Its about preparation for the coming of the Lord.

I don't think the message of grace is "hard to swallow"...I just think it's been misunderstood to mean that the law has been "done away".
Which would mean that Jesus spent three and a half years teaching His Apostles to obey the law, giving them "final instructions" to go and teach others to obey the law, only to go and deputize Paul a few years later, and send him off with an entirely different message.
Grace doesn't mean that we can throw the rules away...

 

[FHII]

Yea... umm, barrd. I still disagree. Jesus had a different curriculum. It was first and foremost about him. It was about truth, forgiveness and love. He forgave transgression of the law. In one private convesation he told the rich young man to obey the law, only for the purpose of making a bigger point.

No, Paul didn't teach others to obey tge law. He preached jesus, truth and grace through faith. Different curriculum than the teaching of t hth e law.

Did he preach abstain from certain meats? No. Did he preach keep the Sabbath? No. Did he preach circumision? No. He preached what James called the royal law, which was what Jesus preached.

Yea, he did preach the law of moses (which includes the 10 comnandments) is good. He also like Peter preached no one could keep it.

I say keep the law as much as you can. But unless you can keep it all, don't ever think you can hold it up ad evidence that you are righteous. Grace through faith us the only way.

 

[StanJ]

So, you think Paul had a different message for the Gentiles than the message Jesus had sent His Apostles to "all nations" with?

No, in fact I said so, if you would have read my post slowly and not jumped to conclusions.

Paul was not the one and only Apostle to the Gentiles. All of them witnessed to Gentiles.
Think about it.

Paul said himself, that he was, but Acts 10 shows Peter ministering to Gentiles also. The fact is Peter did defer to Paul when it came to the Gentiles.

 

[StanJ]

I don't think the message of grace is "hard to swallow"...I just think it's been misunderstood to mean that the law has been "done away".
Which would mean that Jesus spent three and a half years teaching His Apostles to obey the law, giving them "final instructions" to go and teach others to obey the law, only to go and deputize Paul a few years later, and send him off with an entirely different message.
Grace doesn't mean that we can throw the rules away...

Your conclusion is obviously wrong, so maybe you should look at it from a different perspective. Jesus did not waste his time, and did not teach His Apostles to obey the law.

 

[heretoeternity]

It was a given that they would obey the law...it is ridiculous and irresponsible to say the disciples and Jesus did not obey the law...as Paul said in Romans "do we make void the law through faith? God forbid. We establish the law"....as previously mentioned the law is written on the hearts and minds of God's people (Hebrews 8,10).