PAUL WROTE DO NOT LISTEN TO THE PRETRIB RAPTURE TEACHERS

[David in NJ]

The born again, are already born again.
We are ALREADY saved.
We are not waiting for our Salvation, as Christ on the CROSS is our Salvation.

Only our spirits are Born-Again - not our physical temporal bodies

Hebrews 9:28 - Just as man is appointed to die once, and after that to face judgment, so also Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many;
and He will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await Him.

 

[Behold]

Only our spirits are Born-Again - not our physical temporal bodies

Yes David.

"the body is dead because of sin", and all the born again are going to get a new body.

Now let me ask you a question.

You keep posting that Salvation is coming later.

Yet, Jesus when on EARTH told us ".. ""You must. be born again".

And Paul wrote..>"NOW, is the day of Salvation".


So, lets say your cult is wrong, and Jesus and Paul are true.

In that Case, if you die before The Trib starts, then you missed Salvation, if your Cult is right.

Just a thought.

 

[dad]

The main scripture used by supporters of the (Pre-Trib Rapture) is 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, this is nothing more than the (Second Coming) (Last Day) resurrection, not a (Pre-Trib Rapture), don't be deceived

1. Is a resurrection of the believer seen in 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, 100% Yes!

2. Does this resurrection take place on the (Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 100% Yes!

3. Is the (Last Day) the time of final judgement as Jesus Christ taught in John 12:48 below, 100% Yes!

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

Try to get a grip. People that may not share your opinions are not going to be convinced by you imagining that they must be deceived. The case you have offered to support your position so far is pathetically weak.
Lots of things happen in the last day. That period starts with the Rapture and includes the return of Jesus and us, as well as the 1000 year reign. To say that a resurrection happens in that time, so it must all be when He returns is ludicrous. Not rightly dividing Scripture at all. The folks at the end of the 1000 years are saved from the wicked. We might call that another resurrection. The Rapture is another one. When we return with Jesus, there is more! Your myopic tunnel vision, narrow minded little attempted ramming of a large portion of time and events of the end into a few hours is simply unsound.

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

You seem to have a problem with Jesus coming here to get His bride being refereed to as a coming. In this case He comes to get us in the air, and that is very much a coming! Your compulsion to want to call this the only coming is not my problem! By the way, how else coulld we return with Him when He comes to the earth again if we did not first go to be where He is?

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

So we know not all the dead live again when He comes to get us in the air. Neither do they all live again when He returns to rule here for 1000 years. Guess when that leaves? Elementary.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Now we are talking about, not all dead folks, but believers. Is that not obvious?

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Obviously the judment of all people is not when we go to meet Him in the air and so be with Him always. You seem to specialize in conflating events and times. One could not call that understanding. It is muddled confused blather

 

[David in NJ]

Yes David.

"the body is dead because of sin", and all the born again are going to get a new body.

Now let me ask you a question.

You keep posting that Salvation is coming later.

Yet, Jesus when on EARTH told us ".. ""You must. be born again".

And Paul wrote..>"NOW, is the day of Salvation".


So, lets say your cult is wrong, and Jesus and Paul are true.

In that Case, if you die before The Trib starts, then you missed Salvation, if your Cult is right.

Just a thought.

You said: "You keep posting that Salvation is coming later."

This is complete nonsense and adding to my words that which i never said.

Our spiritual Salvation always comes first = No one gets 'raptured' unless they have been first been Born-Again by the Spirit of God.

Stop sidestepping and falsely accusing.

Salvation begins with the First Advent/Coming of Christ whereby HE died and Rose again and Ascended back to the FATHER.

Salvation is COMPLETED with His Second Coming and the Resurrection = 1 Thess 4:13-18 , 1 John 3:1-3 and Hebrews 9:28

Titus ch2
"For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

 

[dad]

No such thing as a pre-tribulation rapture found in scripture, it's a fabricated fairy tale of John N. Darby 1830's and supported by Adulterer C.I. Scofield in his 1909 reference Bible

Jesus returns in fire and final judgement (The End)

It is as simple as realizing that the wrath is not something we go through. We know there are those last several years. We know the days, and years and months that they will last. We know the saints return with Jesus after that period. So if we are not here in that period, and return with Him at the end of the Tribulation, when is it you think we left? The final judment is after Jesus returns on that you are right, only 1000 years later! You simply try to stuff everything into afternoon tea time.

 

[David in NJ]

Try to get a grip. People that may not share your opinions are not going to be convinced by you imagining that they must be deceived. The case you have offered to support your position so far is pathetically weak.
Lots of things happen in the last day. That period starts with the Rapture and includes the return of Jesus and us, as well as the 1000 year reign. To say that a resurrection happens in that time, so it must all be when He returns is ludicrous. Not rightly dividing Scripture at all. The folks at the end of the 1000 years are saved from the wicked. We might call that another resurrection. The Rapture is another one. When we return with Jesus, there is more! Your myopic tunnel vision, narrow minded little attempted ramming of a large portion of time and events of the end into a few hours is simply unsound.



You seem to have a problem with Jesus coming here to get His bride being refereed to as a coming. In this case He comes to get us in the air, and that is very much a coming! Your compulsion to want to call this the only coming is not my problem! By the way, how else coulld we return with Him when He comes to the earth again if we did not first go to be where He is?

So we know not all the dead live again when He comes to get us in the air. Neither do they all live again when He returns to rule here for 1000 years. Guess when that leaves? Elementary.


Now we are talking about, not all dead folks, but believers. Is that not obvious?

Obviously the judment of all people is not when we go to meet Him in the air and so be with Him always. You seem to specialize in conflating events and times. One could not call that understanding. It is muddled confused blather

You said: "That period starts with the Rapture and includes the return of Jesus and us,"

This is a false statement and cannot be found in scripture.

 

[dad]

You said: "That period starts with the Rapture and includes the return of Jesus and us,"

This is a false statement and cannot be found in scripture.

Except you are making stuff up and I showed it was. Let's start with something easy here. Do you realize we return with Him when He comes back to the earth?

 

[David in NJ]

Except you are making stuff up and I showed it was. Let's start with something easy here. Do you realize we return with Him when He comes back to the earth?

There are no scriptures that say JESUS comes down, raptures His the Saints and then comes a 3rd time with His Saints.

1 Thess 3:11-13
Now may our God and Father Himself, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way to you. And may the Lord make you increase and abound in love to one another and to all, just as we do to you, so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father
at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.

1 Thess 4:13-18
But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

A.) For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.

B.) And the dead in Christ will rise first.

C.) After that, we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Follow the simple ABC's of Scripture that were written for God's Children and are easily understood.

 

[Behold]

You said: "You keep posting that Salvation is coming later."

This is complete nonsense and adding to my words that which i never said.

You posted this to prove you are still waiting.

Hebrews 9:28 - Just as man is appointed to die once, and after that to face judgment, so also Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many;
and He will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await Him.


Post it again, and I'll quote you again.

NP.

 

[David in NJ]

You posted this to prove you are still waiting.

Hebrews 9:28 - Just as man is appointed to die once, and after that to face judgment, so also Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many;
and He will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await Him.


Post it again, and I'll quote you again.

NP.

Stop being willfully ignorant of the Holy Scriptures!

Hebrews 9:28 is TRUTH and the COMPLETED Salvation of Christ we are waiting for which is the RESURRECTION and rapture.

Ephesians 1:11-13
In Him we were also chosen as God’s own, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything by the counsel of His will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, would be for the praise of His glory.

And in Him, having heard and believed the word of truth—the gospel of your salvation—you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the pledge of our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession, to the praise of His glory.

 

[dad]

There are no scriptures that say JESUS comes down, raptures His the Saints and then comes a 3rd time with His Saints.

You did not answer the question. Does He return to earth with His saints or not?
(lurkers, that is a trick question, of course He does)
Jude - 14.. “Listen! The Lord is coming with countless thousands of his holy ones 15 to execute judgment on the people of the world

1 Thess 3:11-13
Now may our God and Father Himself, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way to you. And may the Lord make you increase and abound in love to one another and to all, just as we do to you, so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father
at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.

Bingo. That is when He executes judgment and starts to rule here. Not when He comes to take His bride home. You need to learn the difference between coming and going!

1 Thess 4:13-18
But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

Yes so when is that, Rapture or second coming? Ha

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

A.) For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.

B.) And the dead in Christ will rise first.

C.) After that, we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Not sure what you think you see there. In other words, He comes for all believers, the bride, the church, and in a micro second raises the dead believers first, and in the same second so th speak, also raises those that remain alive on earth to all be together in the air! Simple.

Hebrews 9:28 is TRUTH and the COMPLETED Salvation of Christ we are waiting for which is the RESURRECTION and rapture.

Of course we are waiting. That is no excuse to conflate times and events in a fanatical way!

Ephesians 1:11-13
In Him we were also chosen as God’s own, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything by the counsel of His will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, would be for the praise of His glory.

And in Him, having heard and believed the word of truth—the gospel of your salvation—you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the pledge of our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession, to the praise of His glory.

Getting our eternal bodies and meeting Him in the air to be where He is certainly qualifies!

 

[David in NJ]

You did not answer the question. Does He return to earth with His saints or not?
(lurkers, that is a trick question, of course He does)
Jude - 14.. “Listen! The Lord is coming with countless thousands of his holy ones 15 to execute judgment on the people of the world




Bingo. That is when He executes judgment and starts to rule here. Not when He comes to take His bride home. You need to learn the difference between coming and going!

Yes so when is that, Rapture or second coming? Ha


Not sure what you think you see there. In other words, He comes for all believers, the bride, the church, and in a micro second raises the dead believers first, and in the same second so th speak, also raises those that remain alive on earth to all be together in the air! Simple.




Of course we are waiting. That is no excuse to conflate times and events in a fanatical way!


Getting our eternal bodies and meeting Him in the air to be where He is certainly qualifies!

Your question has been answered every time = 1 Thessalonians, Matthew ch24, 2 Thessalonians ch2 , 1 John

HE comes with His Saints/Bride to gather together in One, from Heaven and earth = at His Second Coming

What you, and every pre-fibber, does is add to 1 Thess and other scripture what God never said = a 3rd Coming

God never said that JESUS drops down from Heaven and raptures His Bride back to Heaven and then Returns again.

That is adding to God's words from the mouths of men = very bad. thing to do which only causes division and false teaching.

The Bride of JESUS is already in Heaven now/today and SHE will grow in number as we on earth wait for His Second Coming with HER.

 

[dad]

HE comes for with His Saints/Bride to gather together in One, from Heaven and earth = at His Second Coming

Except you made that up. The yo yo theory is baseless and silly. It also places His bride in the wrath of God.

What you, and every pre-fibber, does is add to 1 Thess and other scripture what God never said = a 3rd Coming

Don't get hung up on numbers just because they don't fit your conflation attempts. It does not say when Jesus returns TO the earth, that this is a "second" coming. Ha. We also have another group of believers after the 1000 years who are saved from the earth as it gets burned! You lose the numbers game, sorry.

God never said that JESUS drops down from Heaven and raptures His Bride back to Heaven and then Returns again.

Yes, Guess where He is? Not in the atmosphere of earth! We will be where He is after we are called to meet Him in the air.

That is adding to God's words from the mouths of men = very bad.

Your weird highly conflated unhealthy fixation with ignoring the events and promises of God has no merit at all.

 

[David in NJ]

Except you made that up. The yo yo theory is baseless and silly. It also places His bride in the wrath of God.

Don't get hung up on numbers just because they don't fit your conflation attempts. It does not say when Jesus returns TO the earth, that this is a "second" coming. Ha. We also have another group of believers after the 1000 years who are saved from the earth as it gets burned! You lose the numbers game, sorry.


Yes, Guess where He is? Not in the atmosphere of earth! We will be where He is after we are called to meet Him in the air.

Your weird highly conflated unhealthy fixation with ignoring the events and promises of God has no merit at all.

OK, it's time to roll up the sleeves and arm wrestle = Godly sword sharpening

So you never posted a single scripture to support you error!

1 Thessalonians ch4 = Acts 1

Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven?
This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

1 Thess ch4 states, by the Word of the LORD, that JESUS descends from Heaven = HELLO Dad! time to wake Up

and SURPRISE, Jesus brings the Saints with Him/His Bride, who are currently in Heaven now as we speak and growing = Rev ch6

When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

and Rev ch14

12Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

13Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’ ”

 

[Behold]

Stop being willfully ignorant of the Holy Scriptures!

In John 3, (Jesus is alive) He told us that """ YOU must be born again."""

After Jesus died, .. He called Paul to be the "apostle to the Gentiles", in the "time of the Gentiles".
This happens before the Trib.

So, Jesus gave to Paul = the "Gospel".. .which Paul preached, based on Jesus dying on the Cross.
Paul says this Gospel is '"" My Gospel""..... = that he didnt learn from man, but from the Son of God, personally.

The born again now preach it.....

2 Corinthians 5:19

For the last 2000 yrs, "all that believe" = all that call on the name of Jesus""........ "shall be SAVED"

And Jesus said..>"if you BELIEVE IN ME, i give unto you ETERNAL LIFE, and you shall never go to Hell (Perish).


So, DAVID, you are teaching that all of this is False, and that no person is born again for the last 2000 yrs, and has become "in Christ" "one with God"..... "the Temple of the Holy Spirit"..... ?

 

[David in NJ]

In John 3, (Jesus is alive) He told us that """ YOU must be born again."""

After Jesus died, .. He called Paul to be the "apostle to the Gentiles", in the "time of the Gentiles".
This happens before the Trib.

So, Jesus gave to Paul = the "Gospel".. .which Paul preached, based on Jesus dying on the Cross.
Paul says this Gospel is '"" My Gospel""..... = that he didnt learn from man, but from the Son of God, personally.

The born again now preach it.....

2 Corinthians 5:19

For the last 2000 yrs, "all that believe" = all that call on the name of Jesus""........ "shall be SAVED"

And Jesus said..>"if you BELIEVE IN ME, i give unto you ETERNAL LIFE, and you shall never go to Hell (Perish).

So, DAVID, you are teaching that all of this is False, and that no person is born again for the last 2000 yrs, and has become "in Christ" "one with God"..... "the Temple of the Holy Spirit"..... ?

FALSE REPORTING = "So, DAVID, you are teaching that all of this is False, and that no person is born again for the last 2000 yrs, and has become "in Christ" "one with God"..... "the Temple of the Holy Spirit"..... ?"

God says: "You shall not bear false witness"

Time for you to Repent and speak that which is Truth

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Try to get a grip. People that may not share your opinions are not going to be convinced by you imagining that they must be deceived. The case you have offered to support your position so far is pathetically weak.
Lots of things happen in the last day. That period starts with the Rapture and includes the return of Jesus and us, as well as the 1000 year reign. To say that a resurrection happens in that time, so it must all be when He returns is ludicrous. Not rightly dividing Scripture at all. The folks at the end of the 1000 years are saved from the wicked. We might call that another resurrection. The Rapture is another one. When we return with Jesus, there is more! Your myopic tunnel vision, narrow minded little attempted ramming of a large portion of time and events of the end into a few hours is simply unsound.

Scripture does not teach multiple future mass resurrection events as you believe. Jesus taught that all of the dead will be resurrected at generally the same time:

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

If you want to just talk in terms of the resurrection of believers, the above passage confirms that all dead believers will be resurrected at the same time as do passages like this:

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Paul gave the order of bodily resurrections unto bodily immortality here and indicated that Christ's was the first and next in order are those who belong to Him at His second coming. That's it. There's no mention of any believers being resurrected at any other time because that will not happen.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, Guess where He is? Not in the atmosphere of earth! We will be where He is after we are called to meet Him in the air.

You are badly misinterpreting the scripture in question. It's not talking about us being wherever He is now (heaven), it's talking about us being where He is at the time that we meet Him and that will be "in the air" and then wherever He takes us from there, which does not have to be to heaven.

 

[marks]

Paul addressed the Pretribulation Rapture teachers in 2Th 2:1-5. When someone told the Thessalonians the rapture was at hand or could happen at any moment, the Thessalonians became confused about what Paul taught them.

Not the Rapture, but the Day of Christ, AKA Day of the Lord.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-5 KJV
1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5) Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

Don't be troubled about our being gathered to the Lord Jesus Christ, because someone is telling you the Day of Christ is here.

So let me ask you . . . if this Day of Christ is referring to the rapture, why would they be troubled by someone saying that day is here?

And if you aren't expecting the rapture until after these other things, then it's just saying, that day is getting closer, so again, why would they be troubled over that concerning the rapture?

But if they were expecting the rapture to be before the Day of the LORD, and someone is telling them that day, the Day of the LORD is here, then they would be troubled.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Not the Rapture, but the Day of Christ, AKA Day of the Lord.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-5 KJV
1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5) Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

Don't be troubled about our being gathered to the Lord Jesus Christ, because someone is telling you the Day of Christ is here.

So let me ask you . . . if this Day of Christ is referring to the rapture,

First of all, it clearly is referring to the rapture because it's referring back one verse to the day that the Lord Jesus Christ comes and we're gathered together unto Him.

why would they be troubled by someone saying that day is here?

Because that would mean they missed the rapture and that the trouble they were facing was because of God's wrath against them. That would obviously be troubling, right?

And if you aren't expecting the rapture until after these other things, then it's just saying, that day is getting closer, so again, why would they be troubled over that concerning the rapture?

They would be troubled if they didn't realize that those other things had to happen first. That's why Paul had to clarify to them that certain things had to happen first, so that they would know they couldn't possibly miss the rapture if those things had not occurred yet.

But if they were expecting the rapture to be before the Day of the LORD, and someone is telling them that day, the Day of the LORD is here, then they would be troubled.

They were rightly expecting that the rapture would occur ON the day of the Lord (the day Christ returns) since that is what Paul had taught them (see 1 Thess 4:14-5:3), but any of them who were not aware that certain things had to occur first may have thought that they missed it and they may have thought that the trouble they were facing was because of God's wrath against them. Paul wanted to make sure that no one would be mistaken like that if anyone tried to tell them that the day of the Lord had already arrived.