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Paul

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Bob Estey, Oct 11, 2021.

  1. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    It may be healthy, but some people do not want to converse or discuss. They want to teach or make statements or declarations and have all listeners or readers agree with them absolutely.

    I was not so assertive or insistent or bold when I was young in the Lord. It took a while before I believed I knew enough to open my mouth. It was long time before I was shown that Solomon's words in Ecclesiastes 3 applied also to me. If Jesus who knew the answers refrained from speaking when the right words may have saved him from crucifixion, who am I to presume I know better... Sometime we need to talk. Sometimes we need to be silent.

    Contents and context are OK but perhaps more important is the message God actually wants to deliver to the reader or hearer. Do not presume there is not difference.

    The people who at times do not really want to receive and hear His message with understanding can include you or me. Where from do get the "ears to hear" of which Jesus speaks so that we can also understand?


    Rather than a suggestion, make it a necessity. Without the Spirit of God leading and directing us we are the ones who will end up in a ditch instead of abiding always with the Lord.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2021
  2. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Scripture is given for what purpose?
    What is every good work?

    Hugs
     
  3. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    I'm thinking that if you read them like you are reading God's Word, the same thing applies, but much more so.

    Much love!
     
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  4. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    I thought about that.
    Paul may not have written the Gospels but those that were with him did.
    I believe all of them, Matthew, Mark whose surname is Luke, and John were all companions of Paul's at some point
    No?
    I could be wrong..
    It could be that Paul/Saul had a lot of first hand accounts having been under the authority of Rome at the time of Herod.
    Who beheaded John the Baptist?
    I'm not saying Paul did, but he was standing in authority while Steven was getting stoned.
    Why do the 4 Gospels correlate so well?
    It could be that all 4 writers got the same narrative from Paul himself.

    Doesn't make it any less true or verifiable. It's just the translation or interpretation of what was transpiring at the time.
    I believe the Gospel, but whose Gospel is it?

    Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
    Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
    2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

    So basically Paul having been trained and brought up in the Torah, was given an inside spiritual understanding and expounded on the meanings in the OT. That's why you can check everything for reproof and correction.
    Because if it's not in the OT (by the law and the testimony) then it should be studied closely to make sure that the New lines up with the Old.

    Paul wasn't trying to create a new religion. He was turning the OT inside out so we could see the deeper meaning hidden like treasure.
    There were some things that Paul hadn't fully grasped yet, like looking through a glass darkly. There is still much more learning to do.
    That's why we have forums and questions to get to the roots and finish the work that Paul began that Jesus gave for him to do.

    I believe everything we need to know is in the bible.
    I don't think we've figured it all out yet though.
    And instead of arguing, we should put our heads together and find places of agreement.
    It's that thing called edifying, that builds us up instead of knocking each other down.

    Time is short and there's still a lot of work to do.

    :)
    HUGS
     
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  5. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    Agreed.

    For this reason we also thank God without ceasing, in that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God. (1 Thessalonians 2:13).

    I recall reading a few things that made me wonder if Paul might have missed it a little, but comparing NT scripture to a typical sermon is not something I find palatable. Paul rightly divided. I've heard so much bad teaching in sermons that I fear for the future of Christianity.
     
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  6. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    ha ya, me too lol

    ok, ya, not those

    ya, those
    so then, arent we freed from the law of sin and death, and also judged by our works?
     
  7. Bob Estey

    Bob Estey Active Member

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    God is not a book.
     
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  8. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Sin is the transgression of the law. Lawlessness.
    Even sin is ruled by law. Lawlessness leads to death.
    This is the law of sin which leads to death.

    When we repent and turn towards God we begin to walk in his law of life.
    Life is also ruled by law. And we must walk in life. That is God's law.

    Whether we live in sin or live in life, we are judged by the works we do in either instance.
    One law is fruitless, and eventually withers and dies.
    The other law is fruitful, and in it we grow and prosper.

    I'm thinking of the basket of very bad figs...


    just thinking..
    hugs
     
  9. Bruce Atkinson

    Bruce Atkinson Member

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    I just went back and reread your question. Now I understand it. Sometimes it takes a while for things to sink in for this 73 year old geezer.

    We will all be judged one day as Paul wrote:

    Romans 14:10-12 (KJV)
    10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
    11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
    12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

    2 Corinthians 5:10 (KJV)
    10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

    But we who are saved, eg, believers, will not be judged (condemned) by our sins.

    Romans 8:1 (KJV)
    1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    Remember that Paul writes to believers, not unbelievers. So the above references to the judgement seat of Christ isn't where we are judged for the sins of our life - they were all forgiven at the cross. Instead, we are being rewarded for what we've done for Christ, our faithfulness to Him, how has our faith been shown to others, etc. What we have done for Him (yes, works) will be the basis for receiving crowns. I'll leave it to each reader to look up what crowns we get in Pauls' epistles.

    Paul wrote that we are the bride of Christ -

    2 Corinthians 11:2 (KJV)
    2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

    Ephesians 5:23-27 (KJV)
    27 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
    24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
    25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
    26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
    27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

    We are presented to Jesus as his blemish-free bride at the heavenly wedding at the rapture of the church. It will be the marriage supper of the Lamb -

    Revelation 19:6-10 (KJV)
    6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
    7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
    8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
    9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
    10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

    Instead of going to a marriage supper, the unbelievers (unsaved) will be judged by their works, both good and bad:

    Revelation 20:11-15 (KJV)
    11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
    12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
    14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    Perhaps the only 'good news' about being cast into the lake of fire is that it's likely that parts of it are hotter than others. Hitler, for example, will get the super-hot spot in the lake.

    So, how would you like to be judged for your works? Rewards and marriage or somewhere in the lake of fire?
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2021
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  10. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member

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    Hello Bruce Atkinson, welcome to C.B.! I hope you will enjoy it here. Your posts are very interesting.

    "I'm a senior citizen with some cognitive decline..."


    Could have fooled me :)
     
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  11. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    According to Jesus, if you are facing eternal damnation, those are the better alternatives. When some people are facing criminal prosecution and what follows, they commit suicide. So that is very similar.
     
  12. MatthewG

    MatthewG Well-Known Member

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    Hello ziggy,

    These are some of my thoughts on that question, (doesn’t make me right).

    To have hope in and trust in God and the Gospel of Christ: Jesus, his life burial and resurrection.

    Good work is love. Which caused by abiding in Christ Jesus. Faith and love are the objective truth of faith in the Lord Jesus. The work of love is produced by God in the heart of a believer. He does the work; all we need to do is seek and trust in them.

    God is powerful enough to correct people by the spirit. ( meaning if an individual continues to seek for God - they will be rewarded ) which a new resurrected spiritual lead life to have love for God and others: after this life one goes on to be with God.

    Everything else for the most part is subjective.

    Thank you,
    Matthew G
     
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  13. Rita

    Rita Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    I always approach Paul’s ‘ letters ‘ as just that, and in context of the fact that he was responding to information received about the Churches that he needed to address. I believe he had a heart for those churches and was inspired to write back responses that would help them to deal with the issues at hand, and in context of the cultures that each of the churches existed. I read the in context of the culture and concern and the issues they had are very much in line with dealing with all the changes that were taking place as these converts were transitioning from there old way of life to a new one.
    The Gospels were written accounts of the experiences of knowing Jesus , and all written after he had spent 40 days with them after his resurrection, we know very little about what they were learning at that time……each gospel for me shows a different aspect of Jesus, king, servant, humanity, son of God …….These were more like diaries , not letters……….
    Rita
     
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  14. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Moses wrote the first 5 books of the Torah. I don't know who wrote Joshua or the Kings or Chronicles or Numbers or Ruth, etc.
    Then you have the Psalms mostly written by David, Proverbs I believe written by Solomon and Ecclesiastes and Lamentations...
    Then we have the Prophets Daniel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Hosea, Micah....
    The theme of the OT are all in line from Genesis to the end of that age.
    We see God's character moving throughout all the pages and how people's moved and lived within that time.
    Some were good figs and some were naughty figs.
    And by these examples we learn morals.
    The scriptures are for growing into the character of God while avoiding becoming naughty.

    At the end of that age the world had lost it's way, twisted God's words, created it's own laws, and lived under oppression.

    We are Here.

    Jesus was sent to set the world back on the right course.
    In the OT we see the world according to the flesh with a sprinkle of Spirit mixed in.. like a little dash of salt.
    In the NT we see the world according to the Spirit but it is mingled with the flesh. Kind of like the iron and the clay of the toes in Daniels vision.

    The OT is like the cover of a book. The NT is the pages within the book.
    It is the revealing of the spirit within us and how we relate to God.
    But we need to see God operate in the worst of times (Noah, Sodom, Babylon, Nineveh, etc.. ) so we know what is expected of us and how we are to operate in the worst of times. There are many examples of good figs in the OT. Ruth stands out for me as a good fig.

    Everything works by law. Some call it the ying and yang, karma, the law of attraction. whatever you call it, it's still law.
    The Universe works by law, the trees and plants and seasons all work by law.
    Everything has a course until man decides to change it and interrupt the flow.

    Man's law should be in alignment with God's law.
    And what is God's law?
    To love Him as he loves us. And to love our neighbor as ourselves.

    This is the the entire Bible in a nutshell.
    Paul exposed the underbelly of leviathan. He exposed the human nature of man as opposed to the spiritual nature of man.
    And how far we had fallen as a human race in regards to brotherly love and Love of our Father.

    The bible exposes you. You read it, eat it, digest it, meditate on it, and decide and reason within yourself.
    There are parts in the bible that when you see they don't fit the mold of perfection, you can remove those characteristics from yourself.
    Let him who stole, steal no more.. etc.
    Because you see the end results of those who do such things.
    The bible is the Trumpet. It is the final warning of where we are, and where we need to be headed, to become perfect as God is.

    To me, that is the purpose of scripture.

    Every good work, is everything done through love and a willing heart to raise up and help our fellow man.
    There are still plenty of very naughty figs. And we see them increasing daily.
    At the same time there are good figs growing some here and some there.
    Good works is teaching our children how to avoid becoming very naughty figs.
    Or if you see a brother or sister turning sour, to remind them and show them that they are wandering from the path.

    Prophecy is going to do what it's going to do. We can't change that because it's already been set in motion.
    But by our words and actions we may be able to change the head on collision that those who don't know God or don't know love,
    is on with destruction.
    We are here to pull as many out of the fire instead of pushing them into it.

    A good work, is laying your life on the line for another.
    Preaching, teaching, feeding, clothing, housing, supporting.. even if you get slapped across the face or tread on.
    The NT is the armour of God. It is the moral foundation of which we need to grow upon.
    Arguing about this doctrine or that doctrine is a means of seperation. And the devil knows it.

    What does the Bible mean to you?

    This is how I read it.
    Hugs
     
  15. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    I see Jesus, the embodiment, the character, the Ambassador, of God himself.
    We really don't know the early life of Jesus. It's like he is silent and perhaps watching to see where the world is heading.
    Like the intermission between the OT and the NT. God is watching. But sin has become so rooted that he knows we can't fix ourselves and He needs to make an appearance before all rememberance of Him is forgotten.
    This forgetting is death itself.
    I believe mankind was on the brink of forgetfulness. And when Jesus came he found a little faith on earth.
    And as he moved among the people he brought their remembrance back.
    But there are those who want to keep God forgotten, so they try to wipe him from our memories, through man's laws and man's ways.
    And so they tried to kill God. This is the life and burial of God.
    We see they are trying to do the same thing today. Removing prayer from schools, shutting down churches, denying assemblies, etc..
    The ressurection then, is God being brought back to life by the rememberance and the abiding in Him.
    Not allowing the curtain to close. Not allowing the world to fall into forgetfulness.

    I believe that's what happened in the vision of Jeremiah when he saw the world had become void.
    The same void that occured in the book of Genesis which only darkness/forgetfulness reigned.
    And the spirit of God moved upon the waters, is the same as Jesus moving among the peoples in the NT.

    God will never allow us to wholly forget. There will always be a remnant that is pre-ordained to carry the torch of life.

    Jer 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
    Jer 4:27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

    God was ressurected through Jesus by keeping the memory of him alive.
    The life, burial, and ressurection of Jesus means so much more to me than an act of one good man dying for the sake of many.
    He died to keep his Father's memory from going down into a wormhole.
    Without God, there is no life.

    And the farther we get away from God the more chaos rules. Until there is only a void and darkness upon the face of the earth.

    He will never leave us or forsake us. Do unto other's as you would have done unto you.
    If you don't want to be forsaken, then don't forget.

    So many levels, so many peels of an onion..
    This is one rabbit hole I don't mind falling into
    :)

    HUGS
     
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  16. MatthewG

    MatthewG Well-Known Member

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    How profound. Thank you for sharing your insights with me, sister.
     
  17. Mantis

    Mantis Well-Known Member

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    Don’t be deceived. That is a tall order. If it were not for a supernatural experience, I wouldn’t be a Christian. Satan can appear as an angel of light, but can Satan speak in Jesus’ voice? I doubt it. When I was called I recognized his voice and realized I knew him. I think we all know him from our mother’s womb. Even if Paul was deceived(which he was not IMO) God used it to further his agenda.
     
  18. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Something Pastor Chuck used to talk about, "reading the Bible without filters". Just to take it in, like you've quoted there, receiving it as the Word of God.

    I know some of the passages people question about Paul's writings. I don't have problems with them myself.

    Speaking of rightly dividing, I've been listening to this guy, he's got some good perspectives. I haven't heard a lot, so, just saying,

    Living God Ministries - Aaron Budjen's Official Website

    Much love!
     
  19. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Well, yes, where did that come from?

    Yet God gave me a book, which I treasure very highly! More than any other possession. And as it's Words are retained in my heart, these too become my most treasured thoughts.

    Much love!
     
  20. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    I watched the early minutes of it. I agree that people make excuses for their own unwillingness to accept God as He is, on the terms set forth in scripture. I think God set things up this way on purpose. You have to want to believe in a good God; a God of hope and of love. Many don't. It's why there are so many Satanists in this world. The enemy convinces them that the God of the scripture is not truly God, but in allowing themselves to be so convinced they reveal what it is they truly want to believe instead, not that it is or has ever been the truth (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12).
     
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