Perpetual virginity of Mary!

[BreadOfLife]

The purpose of good art is to inspire and stimulate deep thinking on the subject in question.
Which is why portraying Christ and Mary realistically would be an excellent evangelism tool.
But as long as we keep them in the stained glass other worldly types of images, they will remain only stories to most people, not much different than looking at pictures of the Greek gods.

And which images brought more people to Christ? The true ones or the fake looking ones?
The reason The Passion of the Christ shook people to the core is that it didn't sanitize what really happened.

And once again - you fail to understand the historical purpose of most art - especially religious art.

As I educated you in my last post - the BULK of the population was functionally illiterate. Art was used an an educational tool.
It wasn't meant to terrify people or disgust them with depictions placenta spilling out of a mother's womb as YOU would like to see.

Using YOUR logic - there would be no poetry or Shakespearean literature either because it's just "not realistic". Artists painting in Impressionist or Cubist styles would also be banned in your bizarre world.

What an asinine view of the arts . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

And which images brought more people to Christ? The true ones or the fake looking ones?
The reason The Passion of the Christ shook people to the core is that it didn't sanitize what really happened.

Funny how this entire conversation about Biblical art came about because of your complete failure to provide a Scriptural refutation of MY Scriptural defense of Mary's Perpetual Virginity.

Good job . . .

 

[Renniks]

And once again - you fail to understand the historical purpose of most art - especially religious art.

As I educated you in my last post - the BULK of the population was functionally illiterate. Art was used an an educational tool.
It wasn't meant to terrify people or disgust them with depictions placenta spilling out of a mother's womb as YOU would like to see.

Using YOUR logic - there would be no poetry or Shakespearean literature either because it's just "not realistic". Artists painting in Impressionist or Cubist styles would also be banned in your bizarre world.

What an asinine view of the arts . . .

I would think you could have a civil discussion without all the pointless insulting, if you really tried.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I would think you could have a civil discussion without all the pointless insulting, if you really tried.

Soooooo - let me get this straight . . .

I should be the one having a "civil" conversation and let people like YOU attack my Church and our beliefs with impunity?
Not on MY watch, pal.

As I've said on MANY occasions - I'm here for ONE reason and ONE reason only: To seek out lies, myths and falsehoods about the Catholic Church - expose them - and set the record straight.
This place keeps me PLENTY busy.

 

[Renniks]

[

Soooooo - let me get this straight . . .

I should be the one having a "civil" conversation and let people like YOU attack my Church and our beliefs with impunity?
Not on MY watch, pal.

As I've said on MANY occasions - I'm here for ONE reason and ONE reason only: To seek out lies, myths and falsehoods about the Catholic Church - expose them - and set the record straight.
This place keeps me PLENTY busy.

Yes, you could certainly try not to be extremely nasty to people you disagree with. As they are presumably your brothers and sisters in Christ. These are not major issues. They're merely points of disagreement about scripture interpretation.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yes, you could certainly try not to be extremely nasty to people you disagree with. As they are presumably your brothers and sisters in Christ. These are not major issues. They're merely points of disagreement about scripture interpretation.

You want me to b nice to you?
You get wat you give .

That's to ALL of the Anti Catholics here who think they've been treated "unfairly" by me . . .

 

[Renniks]

You want me to b nice to you?
You get wat you give .

That's to ALL of the Anti Catholics here who think they've been treated "unfairly" by me . . .

There's a difference between disagreement and just being plain nasty.
Really doesn't make anyone aspire to be a Catholic, that's for sure.

 

[BreadOfLife]

There's a difference between disagreement and just being plain nasty.
Really doesn't make anyone aspire to be a Catholic, that's for sure.

Having your lies repeatedly exposed in public shouldn't make you aspire to be a ANTI-Catholic . . .

 

[Renniks]

Having your lies repeatedly exposed in public shouldn't make you aspire to be a ANTI-Catholic . . .

I told no lies.

 

[Illuminator]

There's a difference between disagreement and just being plain nasty.
Really doesn't make anyone aspire to be a Catholic, that's for sure.

You can't refute BoL content, so you resort to attacking his style. That's all you've got. And you do post dogmatic, unbiblical Calvinoid LIES. "being plain nasty" is asserted, but not backed by quotes.

 

[Illuminator]

Shrug. You can believe a falsehood if you choose.
Mary was blessed by God. Not because she was somehow more holy than anyone else.

A Calvinoid contradiction of biblical evidence. Mary was MADE HOLY solely by God's grace, a concept you distort.

In the same way we are all more blessed than we deserve, due to nothing in us, but due to God's grace.

The argument is a matter of degree, which you deny. FULL of grace does not mean 99.999% full with a little sin on the side.

I get the impression that Catholics have this image of Mary that you see in the nativity scenes...

Therefore all nativity scenes found in thousands of Protestant homes at Christmas time should be banned??? Your "impressions" stink.

Kneeling by a manger without a hair out of place with a halo around her head, sweetly smiling right after giving birth. I suspect the reality was slightly more messy and I'm quite sure Mary had the same doubts and fears we all do.

Yea, right. Mary had a chat with an archangel and Zacharias was struck dumb for his doubt. You make no sense.

She was commended for her obedience, and that should give us hope that an ordinary person can be chosen and used by God... Not some creature that we need to put on a pedestal.

Catholics put Mary on a pedestal because God did so first. Your anti-Mary animosities are not biblical.

I guess you never were present at a birth. It's a miracle, but a very messy miracle.

Chapter and verse numbers for inferences of "messy". There are none. You make that up because it fits your man made traditions.

And which images brought more people to Christ? The true ones or the fake looking ones?

Images don't bring people to Christ, they are expressions by those who are already brought to Christ.

Title: First Known Image of Mary
Artist: Unknown
Location: Catacombs of Priscilla (Rome, Italy)
Medium: Fresco
Time: 170 BC
You have NOTHING to do with the authentic beliefs and practices of the church of 170 A.D. You show NO CONTINUITY but complain about the BIBLICAL use of religious images.

The reason The Passion of the Christ shook people to the core is that it didn't sanitize what really happened.

Yet anti-Mary Christians sanitize Simeon's prophecy because they refuse to acknowledge who "the many hearts" are. Luke 2:33-35

I would think you could have a civil discussion without all the pointless insulting, if you really tried.

This is, in itself, a pointless insult.

Yes, you could certainly try not to be extremely nasty to people you disagree with. As they are presumably your brothers and sisters in Christ. These are not major issues. They're merely points of disagreement about scripture interpretation.

No, insults to the true BIBLICAL role of Mary in God's plan of salvation is not "merely points of disagreement". They are diabolical 18th century man made traditions not even thought of by the early reformers.

 

[101G]

Mary was MADE HOLY solely by God's grace, a concept you distort

How was Mary made "HOLY?". are not we holy also?... what's so special about Mary? is she not a human as we all are? and was she not in need of a saviour just as we are?

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[BreadOfLife]

How was Mary made "HOLY?". are not we holy also?... what's so special about Mary? is she not a human as we all are? and was she not in need of a saviour just as we are?

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

HOW?? By God.
First of all - you need to realize that the NT WASN'T written in English. It was written in GREEK.

In Luke 1:28, the Angel's greeting reveals this. The Greek word is Kecharitomene that Luke used in his Gospel (v.1:28), which is the perfect passive participle, indicates a COMPLETED action with a PERMANENT result. it translates, “completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace.”
The Angel didn’t say, “Hail Mary, full of grace.” He said, "Hail, Kecharitomene.”

Jerome translated this title as “Gratia plena” (full of grace). He could HARDLY write:
“Hail, completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace, which is a perfect passive participle, indicating a completed action with a PERMANENT result.”
"Full of Grace" and the later Protestant version of "Highly favoured" were simply ways of expressing "Kecharitomene" in a way that makes literary sense.

So, Mary was MADE Holy BY God, having been completely and enduringly perfected in grace PERMANENTLY (Kecharitomene). Fully sanctified while still a young girl.
YOU and I are being DAILY sanctified until we die.

As for Mary needing a Savior - of COURSE she did. WHO do you think sanctified her and bestowed perfect and enduring grace upon her??
She didn't do this on her own.

Finally, as to your moronic question about "what's so special about Mary" - you have GOT to be kidding.

First of all - she is the ONLY person in ALL of history that was chosen to bring forth the Savior of the world. She carried GOD Himself in her womb.
She is ALSO the ONLY person in ALL of Scripture to be called "Kecharitomene."

I'd say that makes her VERY special . . .

 

[101G]

HOW?? By God.
First of all - you need to realize that the NT WASN'T written in English. It was written in GREEK.

careless, so Mary was the Only One made holy by God?

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[BreadOfLife]

careless, so Mary was the Only One made holy by God?

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

FULLY sanctified while still alive.

The Bible says that YOU are being worked on - daily sanctified (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, 7:1, Phil. 2:12, Heb 12:14).
God completed this in Mary by the time the Angel got there.

BIG difference.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I told no lies.

You told nothing BUT lies and denials and rejections of the truth.,
I gave you Biblical argument after Biblical argument - and all YOU did was call them "Lies".
Don't agree with them? Fine - then give me an alternate Biblical argument.

Calling the Word of God a "Lie" is a lie in itself - not to mention blasphemy.

 

[101G]

FULLY sanctified while still alive.

The Bible says that YOU are being worked on - daily sanctified (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, 7:1, Phil. 2:12, Heb 12:14).
God completed this in Mary by the time the Angel got there.

BIG difference.

and Mary was no different,
understand being holy is not a special privelage of nothing that YOU did, no. Luke 1:28 "And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women."

among women... not "ABOVE" women.

God can give anyone he desire the Holy Ghost.

and nope she's in the grave, or whats left of her... awaiting our saviour return, as with everyone else "DEAD" or alive.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[BreadOfLife]

and Mary was no different,
understand being holy is not a special privelage of nothing that YOU did, no. Luke 1:28 "And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women."

among women... not "ABOVE" women.

God can give anyone he desire the Holy Ghost.

and nope she's in the grave, or whats left of her... awaiting our saviour return, as with everyone else "DEAD" or alive.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

And this pathetic reply id typical of a person who cannot refute Mary's title of "Kecharitomene".
This is nothing but opinion, whereas I presented Biblical and linguistic FACT.

Come back where you're prepared to intelligently debate this issue - and leave your uneducated opinions at the door . . .

 

[101G]

And this pathetic reply id typical of a person who cannot refute Mary's title of "Kecharitomene".
This is nothing but opinion, whereas I presented Biblical and linguistic FACT.

Come back where you're prepared to intelligently debate this issue - and leave your uneducated opinions at the door . . .

well don't let the door hit you in the backside when you leave.

Mary is no more than any other woman. she was just only, as the scriptured stated, "highly favoured", or ACCEPTED.
G5487 χαριτόω charitoo (cha-riy-to'-ō) v.
1. to grace (i.e. indue with special honor).
2. to graciously favor (influentially).
[from G5485]
KJV: make accepted, be highly favoured

and she is just like any other woman who is Married, and some not, is no longer a virgin. as much as my wife could say.... "highly favoured", or ACCEPTED.... well I can guarantee you this... SHE IS NOT A VIRGIN ANYMORE, NOT NOW, MAYBE ONCE BEFORE, BUT NOT NOW. as said I can assure you of this...... YIKES!. and as we see in the bible, nor was mary a virgin any longer either... lol... pop goes the weasel , as well as her viriginty.... (smile), lol.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[BreadOfLife]

well don't let the door hit you in the backside when you leave.

Mary is no more than any other woman. she was just only, as the scriptured stated, "highly favoured", or ACCEPTED.
G5487 χαριτόω charitoo (cha-riy-to'-ō) v.
1. to grace (i.e. indue with special honor).
2. to graciously favor (influentially).
[from G5485]
KJV: make accepted, be highly favoured

and she is just like any other woman who is Married, and some not, is no longer a virgin. as much as my wife could say.... "highly favoured", or ACCEPTED.... well I can guarantee you this... SHE IS NOT A VIRGIN ANYMORE, NOT NOW, MAYBE ONCE BEFORE, BUT NOT NOW. as said I can assure you of this...... YIKES!. and as we see in the bible, nor was mary a virgin any longer either... lol... pop goes the weasel , as well as her viriginty.... (smile), lol.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

Another pathetic opinion-laden attempt to disprove Scriptural truth.
YOU lose - and God WINS again.

"It is permissible, on Greek grammatical and linguistic grounds, to paraphrase kecharitomene as completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace."
(Blass and DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament)

There is no question of a "secondary" reality, one that would have touched her only ulteriorly. Rather, it pertains to the very identity of Mary. Moreover, the appellation κεχαριτωμένη, in all of Scripture, is reserved to Mary, as if it were her special mark. In fact, some have tried to see in the parallel with Gideon, a demonstration that the κεχαριτωμένη would refer only to a grace that is to come, one to follow immediately. For Gideon is called "valiant warrior" at a time when he is not yet such; therefore κεχαριτωμένη would signify a grace that is not present before the angel's greeting. However, as contrasted with what concerns Gideon, the angel does not apply to Mary a noun bracketed with an adjective, but a perfect participle, a verbal form that refers to a past that is prolonged in the present. Therefore, it is before the angel's greeting, before the Incarnation, that Mary is κεχαριτωμένη.
(Kecharitomene (Lk. 1:28) in the Light of Gen. 18:16-33: A Matter of Quantity François Rossier University of Dayton)

Kecharitōmĕnē is the perfect passive participle of charitŏō. It denotes one who has been and still is the object of divine benevolence, one who has been favored and continues to be favored by God, one who has been granted supernatural grace and remains in this state.[1] Verbs ending in ŏō, such as haimatŏō (turn into blood), thaumatŏō (fill with wonder), spodŏōmai (burn to ashes) frequently express the full intensity of the action. Kecharitomene denotes continuance of a completed action.
(H. W. Smyth, Greek Grammar [Harvard University Press, 1968], p. 108-109, sec 1852:b.)

KE – perfect tense (prior event/occurrence/happening that is still existing/occurring or happening now)
CHARITO – a gift, something that is free or unmerited
MENE – a female receiver not giver.
(From hermeneutics.com)