Please explain this.

[Lady Crosstalk]

Dear Scott.
I AM FREE.
Do you realize that by your above reply to me what you're saying is that it is not necessary to obey God?

You said obeying God IS NOT BIBLICAL. !!

I said this:
But, you know, I'd like to REMAIN saved all my life...
and that requires obedience to God...so the answer then would be
YES

YOUR reply is that I said something that IS NOT BIBLICAL.

Please post some scripture to back up your belief that it is not necessary to obey God.

I suppose all we silly Christians that are obeying God are not being biblical...I'd like you to please show us where it's stated that God does NOT require obedience.

Thanks.

Your tone does not indicate love for the brethren--which is one of the first things that Jesus asked us to do.

 

[ScottA]

This is an error to think like that.

It's the "lover's" mistake of putting intimacy above purity. Putting shalem above tamim.

God will not go easier on someone if they have an intimate relationship with Him. That's a wrong view. God is righteous...and we reap as we have sown.

So then WE ourselves do leave His hand...as sheep that go astray. We can easily misuse our freedom at any point along the way.
Scott....you have an intimate knowledge of God...but that makes your position assailable by the enemy. We must be careful to not leave an opening for him to attack.

Isaiah 53:6
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

When we start thinking we are special or ..."that would never happen to me" that's precisely the thing the enemy is waiting for to cause us to fall.

The fear of the Lord continues to be the foundation of wisdom..and when we let that go, foolishness then raises itself up.

We are not to test the Lord.

No, sorry, that does not describe salvation nor marriage, but captivity and slavery.

What we have gained in Christ, cannot be lost. For it is not we who can loose, but Christ in us, who has won His victory, which is forever.

Salvation is not a "process" as some believe, but is a gift that has come in one hour--His hour, and ours. We "were" crucified and we "were" raised up with Him. "It is finished." "Today is the day of salvation"...which day has come already, and does come in that very hour of our decision. Those who enter into the righteousness of Christ "have passed from death to life" and there is no going back. Shall one go back to the dust? Heaven forbid--NO, you do not even know what you have been given--nor do you speak the words of eternal life.

Receive it in full and live!

 

[justbyfaith]

From Commentary on Romans.

Romans 2:6-11, 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well-doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile: But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile. For there is no respect of persons with God.

We must be certain in our understanding of this passage to know that, while our deeds will be judged by the Lord, even that we will be judged by our deeds, that our salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ; and that not of ourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9.

It is that, if anyone is saved by grace through faith, they are made into a new creature in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17); and that the attitude of a new creature in Christ is that he, through patient continuance in well-doing, seeks for glory and honour and immortality. The born again believer is not the kind to be contentious and/or disobedient to the truth. Eternal life belongs to those who have an eternal perspective and who fear the possibility of an eternity without Christ. Indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, belong to those who obey unrighteousness. To those who work good there will be glory and honour and peace.

The question arises, where is there anyone that it can be said that he works good? is it not written that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God? Apart from Christ, there is no one who does good: however, those who are in Christ are not under the law; and therefore what the law says to those who are under the law does not apply; because they are not under the law. Sin shall not have dominion over them because they are not under the law but under grace.

There is no respect of persons with God. This indicates that every man shall be judged on the basis of his works. If the works that he has done in life indicate the inner transformation that amounts to being born again (through faith alone in Jesus Christ), then he will enter in.

Now everyone has done evil; for we were all conceived in sin. Therefore will not all be raised unto the resurrection of damnation (John 5:29)? No; because for those who are in Christ, not only has their sin been forgiven/washed away, but they have been given a new heart and a new spirit (Ezekiel 36:25-27) so that from the point of being born again on, their inclination is towards good instead of their former evil practice. Note that God looks on the heart; so He considers mere anger without a cause to be as murder; and lusting after a woman to be as adultery. If you lack integrity, so that your yea is nay and/or your nay is yea; then you fall short in the area of being truthful; and God might consider you to be a liar. There are exceptions to this, as with the psychiatric system of this world, where a man is forced into med compliance so that his nay becomes yea whether he wants it to be or not. And he does not have the right to refuse it in the long run, because they will simply wait for a period of time and then come after him again.

But if we seek for glory, honour, and immortality, the result will be eternal life; because anyone who seeks immortality will eventually find the way into it; and that way is through the door, which door is Jesus Christ of Nazareth, even calling on His name in surrender and faith.

 

[marks]

I guess @ScottA believes that the only way to be free is to not obey God.

I wonder if that's what Jesus meant when He said He would set us free?
I thought He meant from satan and his effects.
Silly me.

Do you truly think that was what @ScottA meant? That we are to not obey God? I don't get that from him myself.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Salvation is not a "process" as some believe, but is a gift that has come in one hour--His hour, and ours. We "were" crucified and we "were" raised up with Him. "It is finished." "Today is the day of salvation"...which day has come already, and does come in that very hour of our decision. Those who enter into the righteousness of Christ "have passed from death to life" and there is no going back.

Amen!

 

[ScottA]

Dear Scott.
I AM FREE.
Do you realize that by your above reply to me what you're saying is that it is not necessary to obey God?

You said obeying God IS NOT BIBLICAL. !!

I said this:
But, you know, I'd like to REMAIN saved all my life...
and that requires obedience to God...so the answer then would be
YES

YOUR reply is that I said something that IS NOT BIBLICAL.

Please post some scripture to back up your belief that it is not necessary to obey God.

I suppose all we silly Christians that are obeying God are not being biblical...I'd like you to please show us where it's stated that God does NOT require obedience.

Thanks.

That is not what I am saying at all, and you think wrongly of me because you misunderstand.

You say of salvation "that [it] requires obedience to God." But what is true, and what is biblical, is that of ourselves we "can do nothing." Therefore salvation does not "require" anything of us, but rather of God. Thus, the correct and biblical thing to say, is that salvation does not require anything of us, but does acquire us obedience to God. Not "require", but acquire. This is the power of God in Christ, in us.

 

[justbyfaith]

Gal 3:22, But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23, But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Gal 3:24, Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25, But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

 

[atpollard]

Could you PLEASE show me where in Genesis Abraham was righteous with God WITHOUT works?

[Genesis 15:1-6 NASB] 1 After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision, saying, "Do not fear, Abram, I am a shield to you; Your reward shall be very great." 2 Abram said, "O Lord GOD, what will You give me, since I am childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?" 3 And Abram said, "Since You have given no offspring to me, one born in my house is my heir." 4 Then behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This man will not be your heir; but one who will come forth from your own body, he shall be your heir." 5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." 6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

Which is not to say that Abraham was without works, or that there is not a greater blessing to be gained from obedience ...

[Genesis 22:15-18 NASB] 15 Then the angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time from heaven, 16 and said, "By Myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, because you have done this thing and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies. 18 "In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice."

 

[justbyfaith]

Abraham's action of being willing to offer up his son Isaac reflected the reality of what he believed in his heart...that God's promise was true when He told him that his seed (through Isaac) would be as innumerable as the stars in heaven.

At the time that Abraham "offered Isaac", Isaac hadn't even yet met Rebecca. So, there were no children through Isaac.

So, in Abraham's thinking, God was able to even raise Isaac from the dead in order to keep His promise.

So Abraham's action not only reflected his faith...it reflected the content of his faith.

In offering up Isaac, it became evident that Abraham believed that his seed through Isaac, would indeed, be as the stars in the sky innumerable...no matter what.

Thus the faith that was invisibly present in Genesis 15:6 was made visible by Abraham's behaviour at the offering up of Isaac.

Therefore Romans 4:2 is most assuredly substantiated, that if Abraham were justified by works, he had whereof to glory in his behaviour, but not before God.

Before God, he had whereof to glory in that his faith was present in his heart in Genesis 15:6 (he was not justified by works).

Before man, he has whereof to glory in that to the visible eyes of man, his faith was evident by his behaviour in being willing to offer up his only begotten son.

 

[atpollard]

You are new to the forum so you are not aware of what I believe.

As a strong monergist and a 5 point Calvinist, I can agree with salvation by grace through faith ... not of works and not of ourselves ... foreknown, predestined, called, justified, sanctified and glorified by the power of God ... for the glory of God ... an act of unmerited favor from first to last.

So my only question, for future reference, is: Are all of your questions rhetorical?

Your OP asked a question. I answered that question. Now it seems that you were not looking for answers to the question, but simple agreement with you or an open challenge to your answer. I just want clarification on what your expectations are, so I can adjust my expectations.

 

[GodsGrace]

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 "Now if any man build upon this foundation [the foundation of Jesus Christ because of God's grace to him--see verse 10] gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

For goodness sake.
It's speaking about OUR WORKS.
It's speaking about the foundation that Paul and Apollos laid..
and the workers that will come after them.
Read it again please from verse 1.

 

[GodsGrace]

I was indicating that I agreed with everything Brakelite said in that post.



That was God's call to Abraham and it was followed by God's promise to him. But the Covenant which God made with Abraham was not the New Covenant which we have in Christ.

NO!
I've taught the covenants Lady C.
We were NOT DISCUSSING the covenants...

We were discussing whether or not it's NECESSARY TO OBEY GOD.

Abraham OBEYED GOD when God told him to leave his home.
He was right with God at this point.
Read it again...
Genesis 12:1

 

[GodsGrace]

Your tone does not indicate love for the brethren--which is one of the first things that Jesus asked us to do.

You mean:
1. You want me to obey God?
2. You want me to WORK!

 

[GodsGrace]

Do you truly think that was what @ScottA meant? That we are to not obey God? I don't get that from him myself.

Much love!

That's how a new Christian would understand it.
I think we should be careful what comes out of our mouth...
Mathew 15:11

And also what we teach...
James 3:1

 

[ScottA]

That's how a new Christian would understand it.
I think we should be careful what comes out of our mouth...
Mathew 15:11

And also what we teach...
James 3:1

I agree.

That is why I am speaking out regarding the greater truth of the gospel of Christ, rather than suggesting that a person can and must do works in order to be saved. That is not the truth of salvation at all, and to carelessly and forcefully campaign against the actual truth, should indeed not be spoken or taught.

 

[GodsGrace]

That is not what I am saying at all, and you think wrongly of me because you misunderstand.

You say of salvation "that [it] requires obedience to God." But what is true, and what is biblical, is that of ourselves we "can do nothing." Therefore salvation does not "require" anything of us, but rather of God. Thus, the correct and biblical thing to say, is that salvation does not require anything of us, but does acquire us obedience to God. Not "require", but acquire. This is the power of God in Christ, in us.

Yes. Jesus said we can do nothing with our own strength.
This is why He went away and sent the Holy Spirit.

The biblical thing to say is this:

1. God has always expected obedience from man...from Adam and on.
2. Salvation is free of charge. Sanctification is not. It requires our DOING what God wants us to do. HE is not going to do it for us. WE must DO,,,not only have faith. FAITH ONLY does not work and is not biblical.

If you do not agree with the above, please post some scripture.

2 Timothy 2:21
Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.

Sanctification is on-going.
It means to be set apart to do God's work WITH the help of the Holy Spirit. It's a work of the Holy Spirit within us,,but we MUST cooperate.
The Holy Spirit is not going to move our hands and feet.. WE have to do that of our own free will.


Hebrews 9:14
14how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

We are to serve the living God.
NOT do dead works...which are works of THE LAW....of Moses.


John 14:23
Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.”

We should ask ourselves...WHAT did Jesus teach?

Just reading Mathew will tell you a lot of what Jesus taught.

Please reply with verses.

 

[GodsGrace]

I agree.

That is why I am speaking out regarding the greater truth of the gospel of Christ, rather than suggesting that a person can and must do works in order to be saved. That is not the truth of salvation at all, and to carelessly and forcefully campaign against the actual truth, should indeed not be spoken or taught.

NO ONE that I know on ANY FORUM believes works save us.

Apparently there's a problem here :

1. What is the difference between Justification and Sanctification?

2. What are the Works of the Law and what are Works of Obedience of Faith?

All Christians should know the difference.

I've said is so many times.
One must come to understand this on their own.

 

[GodsGrace]

[Genesis 15:1-6 NASB] 1 After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision, saying, "Do not fear, Abram, I am a shield to you; Your reward shall be very great." 2 Abram said, "O Lord GOD, what will You give me, since I am childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?" 3 And Abram said, "Since You have given no offspring to me, one born in my house is my heir." 4 Then behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This man will not be your heir; but one who will come forth from your own body, he shall be your heir." 5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." 6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

Which is not to say that Abraham was without works, or that there is not a greater blessing to be gained from obedience ...

[Genesis 22:15-18 NASB] 15 Then the angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time from heaven, 16 and said, "By Myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, because you have done this thing and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies. 18 "In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice."

The way I see it A,,,is like this.
Abraham obeyed God and did what God told him to do from the get go.
Genesis 12:1

Obeying God and doing what He says makes us right with God.
Righteous.

It's rather shocking to me that some of us have to battle to state that God Almighty, who created the heavens, must be obeyed.

It could be because we love Him as many state...
It could be because we fear him as a couple have stated...
BUT OBEY WE MUST.

Anyone that says otherwise is misleading the new Christians among us and putting their soul in danger.
Our works demonstrate our salvation.
No works....No salvation.
2 John 1:9
9Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.

The above is referring specifically to having love for one another.
But Jesus left us with far more commandments than that.
I have a long list....but if we just use our love, the list will be covered.

 

[Enoch111]

Obeying God and doing what He says makes us right with God. Righteous.

Are you sure that this is what the Gospel says?

JUSTIFICATION (DECLARED RIGHTEOUS)
According to Romans 4, Abraham BELIEVED GOD and it was imputed to him for righteousness. He was made right with God by believing God. We are made right with God by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ.

SANCTIFICATION (BEING RIGHTEOUS THROUGH OBEDIENCE)
Having been declared righteous we are TO BE RIGHTEOUS AND HOLY. That is sanctification --separation from the world, the flesh, and the devil, and separation unto God and Christ.

We do have some here who oppose justification by grace through faith, just like the Catholics did during the Reformation.

 

[ScottA]

Yes. Jesus said we can do nothing with our own strength.
This is why He went away and sent the Holy Spirit.

The biblical thing to say is this:

1. God has always expected obedience from man...from Adam and on.
2. Salvation is free of charge. Sanctification is not. It requires our DOING what God wants us to do. HE is not going to do it for us. WE must DO,,,not only have faith. FAITH ONLY does not work and is not biblical.

If you do not agree with the above, please post some scripture.

2 Timothy 2:21
Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.

Sanctification is on-going.
It means to be set apart to do God's work WITH the help of the Holy Spirit. It's a work of the Holy Spirit within us,,but we MUST cooperate.
The Holy Spirit is not going to move our hands and feet.. WE have to do that of our own free will.


Hebrews 9:14
14how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

We are to serve the living God.
NOT do dead works...which are works of THE LAW....of Moses.


John 14:23
Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.”

We should ask ourselves...WHAT did Jesus teach?

Just reading Mathew will tell you a lot of what Jesus taught.

Please reply with verses.

You are mixing the requirement for salvation with the requirement for service. They are two separate things. Ironically, if you put them together as you are...it is not of service to God, but a disservice.

You can read the scriptures yourself...and you should, because you apparently have them all mixed up.