Please explain this.

[atpollard]

The way I see it A,,,is like this.
Abraham obeyed God and did what God told him to do from the get go.
Genesis 12:1

Obeying God and doing what He says makes us right with God.
Righteous.

Abraham truly did obey God JUST LIKE WE DO.

God's instructions to Abraham were:

• [Genesis 12:1-3 NLT] 1 The LORD had said to Abram, "Leave your native country, your relatives, and your father's family, and go to the land that I will show you. 2 I will make you into a great nation. I will bless you and make you famous, and you will be a blessing to others. 3 I will bless those who bless you and curse those who treat you with contempt. All the families on earth will be blessed through you."

So Abraham obeyed just like we would ... Did he leave with just him and his wife, trusting in God to protect and supply? Not exactly.

• [Genesis 12:4 NLT] 4 So Abram departed as the LORD had instructed, and Lot went with him. Abram was seventy-five years old when he left Haran.

He took his nephew Lot with him ... so much for leaving your relatives. So it was just the three of them, trusting in God for safety and provision, right? Not exactly.

• [Genesis 12:5 NLT] 5 He took his wife, Sarai, his nephew Lot, and all his wealth--his livestock and all the people he had taken into his household at Haran--and headed for the land of Canaan. When they arrived in Canaan,

He took along all the people he could bring along to care for all of the wealth and provision that he could bring along. So his human provisions allowed him to remain in the promised land, right? Not exactly.

• [Genesis 12:10 NLT] 10 At that time a severe famine struck the land of Canaan, forcing Abram to go down to Egypt, where he lived as a foreigner.

Which is harder, providing for you and your wife by the grace of God in a famine, or needing to provision a vast army of servants and livestock during a famine. Abraham's planning to provide for himself drove him FROM the promised land. There might be a message for us in there, who knows.

The lies of Egypt were of course, not the only problen to arrise for Abram from his selective obedience to God's command:

• [Genesis 13:5-7 NLT] 5 Lot, who was traveling with Abram, had also become very wealthy with flocks of sheep and goats, herds of cattle, and many tents. 6 But the land could not support both Abram and Lot with all their flocks and herds living so close together. 7 So disputes broke out between the herdsmen of Abram and Lot. (At that time Canaanites and Perizzites were also living in the land.)

Lot and the servants and the flocks and the wealth became a constant source of trouble for Abraham and Sarah. Without the trip to Egypt, there would have been to Hagar and no plan to 'help' God and no Ishmael.

I am not "hating" on Abraham. He really is the father of our faith. He obeyed God as badly as we do, and God fixed it for Abraham, just like God fixes it for us. Abraham and Peter give me hope that, just maybe, God can use even me.

 

[marks]

Why isn't everyone agreeing with me?
Aren't we SUPPOSED to obey God and do good deeds for Him?

On our own, no.

This is why I say some here are afraid of works and obedience...
because they say both are not necessary.

If I understand that works are not required for salvation, whether to be saved, or to remain saved, that is not the same thing as being afraid of works.

I can love works, enjoy works, do works, but know that they do not save me, nor do that keep me saved, nor is it by my works that I am sanctified.

My POV is that being reborn, our lives are changed, and we do good as by the Spirit of God. But there is no list of rules we are required to keep.

Salvation is by faith, and the just shall live by faith, but law is not of faith, so we do not live by law.

Much love!

 

[GodsGrace]

"Required" is your word.

I will not stop speaking against such error.

THEN QUOTE ME CORRECTLY.

"Works do not save us. Only Faith saves us."

"After salvation, we are required to obey God and do good deeds/work for HIM".

 

[marks]

"After salvation, we are required to obey God and do good deeds/work for HIM".

By required, do you mean to say that the born again person who fails to complete good works ceases to be born again?

Much love!

 

[GodsGrace]

Abraham truly did obey God JUST LIKE WE DO.

God's instructions to Abraham were:

• [Genesis 12:1-3 NLT] 1 The LORD had said to Abram, "Leave your native country, your relatives, and your father's family, and go to the land that I will show you. 2 I will make you into a great nation. I will bless you and make you famous, and you will be a blessing to others. 3 I will bless those who bless you and curse those who treat you with contempt. All the families on earth will be blessed through you."

So Abraham obeyed just like we would ... Did he leave with just him and his wife, trusting in God to protect and supply? Not exactly.

• [Genesis 12:4 NLT] 4 So Abram departed as the LORD had instructed, and Lot went with him. Abram was seventy-five years old when he left Haran.

He took his nephew Lot with him ... so much for leaving your relatives. So it was just the three of them, trusting in God for safety and provision, right? Not exactly.

• [Genesis 12:5 NLT] 5 He took his wife, Sarai, his nephew Lot, and all his wealth--his livestock and all the people he had taken into his household at Haran--and headed for the land of Canaan. When they arrived in Canaan,

He took along all the people he could bring along to care for all of the wealth and provision that he could bring along. So his human provisions allowed him to remain in the promised land, right? Not exactly.

• [Genesis 12:10 NLT] 10 At that time a severe famine struck the land of Canaan, forcing Abram to go down to Egypt, where he lived as a foreigner.

Which is harder, providing for you and your wife by the grace of God in a famine, or needing to provision a vast army of servants and livestock during a famine. Abraham's planning to provide for himself drove him FROM the promised land. There might be a message for us in there, who knows.

The lies of Egypt were of course, not the only problen to arrise for Abram from his selective obedience to God's command:

• [Genesis 13:5-7 NLT] 5 Lot, who was traveling with Abram, had also become very wealthy with flocks of sheep and goats, herds of cattle, and many tents. 6 But the land could not support both Abram and Lot with all their flocks and herds living so close together. 7 So disputes broke out between the herdsmen of Abram and Lot. (At that time Canaanites and Perizzites were also living in the land.)

Lot and the servants and the flocks and the wealth became a constant source of trouble for Abraham and Sarah. Without the trip to Egypt, there would have been to Hagar and no plan to 'help' God and no Ishmael.

I am not "hating" on Abraham. He really is the father of our faith. He obeyed God as badly as we do, and God fixed it for Abraham, just like God fixes it for us. Abraham and Peter give me hope that, just maybe, God can use even me.

We all know about Ishmael and who HE turned out to be and we all know that Abraham wanting to help God was not a very good idea.

Sure we all make mistakes. This is most probably due to the fact that sometimes we trust God and sometimes we don't.

I agree with all you've posted. It's fact...how to not agree?

But it doesn't mean we are not to obey, too the best of our ability. No one is perfect.

And it doesn't mean we shouldn't HEAR God and live how He would want us to.

He did give the best land to Lot!
We're all just human....

 

[GodsGrace]

On our own, no.



If I understand that works are not required for salvation, whether to be saved, or to remain saved, that is not the same thing as being afraid of works.

I can love works, enjoy works, do works, but know that they do not save me, nor do that keep me saved, nor is it by my works that I am sanctified.

My POV is that being reborn, our lives are changed, and we do good as by the Spirit of God. But there is no list of rules we are required to keep.

Salvation is by faith, and the just shall live by faith, but law is not of faith, so we do not live by law.

Much love!

We need both.
Did you see my Jesus Said To Do list at no. 413, 415, 419?
So, let me understand,,,are we supposed to do what HE said or not?

Also, I agree with all you've said except the following:

I can love works, enjoy works, do works, but know that they do not save me, nor do that keep me saved, nor is it by my works that I am sanctified.

Your works keep you saved because God desires obedience.
Your good works/deeds work for your sanctification because sanctification is being set aside to do the works of God.

 

[GodsGrace]

By required, do you mean to say that the born again person who fails to complete good works ceases to be born again?

Much love!

My turn to question YOU....
What is a good work?

 

[atpollard]

But it doesn't mean we are not to obey, too the best of our ability. No one is perfect.
And it doesn't mean we shouldn't HEAR God and live how He would want us to.

I agree that it doesn't mean that we should not obey God, and I agree that we should obey God.
However, it is my considered opinion, that it DOES mean:

• we are not loved by God and saved by God because of our obedience,
• we are loved by God and saved by God in spite of our disobedience.

A small but important distinction.

******
PS. Lot chose the fertile valley of Sodom and Gomorrah.

 

[marks]

My turn to question YOU....
What is a good work?

You liked my post, but you didn't answer my question.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Your works keep you saved because God desires obedience.

In this we are polar opposite.

Not by fear. Free from fear.

Much love!

 

[GodsGrace]

I agree that it doesn't mean that we should not obey God, and I agree that we should obey God.
However, it is my considered opinion, that it DOES mean:

• we are not loved by God and saved by God because of our obedience,
• we are loved by God and saved by God in spite of our disobedience.

A small but important distinction.

******
PS. Lot chose the fertile valley of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Really! Can't remember.
Oh yes! He lived there!

You're just saying it a different way....
but, yes, I agree with how you've worded it.

God loves us DESPITE the times we disobey.

But for new Christians I still say we can't go on forums and state that
it's not necessary to obey God which is EXACTLY what some here have said.

 

[marks]

What is a good work?

That which is done by the New Creation in the leading and power of the Holy Spirit.

Much love!

 

[Helen]

Your works keep you saved because God desires obedience.
Your good works/deeds work for your sanctification because sanctification is being set aside to do the works of God.

Thanks for your other posts too.. now I can see where you are 'coming from' as the old saying goes...

Fran, on this we will have to agree to differ , we are miles apart on this works thing!

You say:-
Your works keep you saved because God desires obedience.
and I say to that...
OUCH!!!!

It is the work of Jesus Christ on the cross when 1) saved me, 2) keeps me saved.

Yes, God not only desired obedience , He required obedience.
And Jesus came to be what? "Obedient unto death."

Now, for me, to say that God wants something from me like works...infers two things... 1) The job didn't get done by Jesus, so everything is still up for grabs.
2) It infers that I have something good enough 'within me' to give God what He wants.

I am ,and have nothing....but Christ and Him crucified. I can only offer Him in my place, up to the Father.

So, we will just let this drop now.
I have a feeling that we have been here before.

Hugs...H

 

[GodsGrace]

You liked my post, but you didn't answer my question.

Much love!

I've answered ALL your questions!
You can't answer ONE of mine?

an easy one too.

WHAT ARE WORKS?
or WHAT IS A GOOD WORK.

 

[GodsGrace]

That which is done by the New Creation in the leading and power of the Holy Spirit.

Much love!

What does that mean?

Give me some examples.

 

[marks]

Really! Can't remember.
Oh yes! He lived there!

You're just saying it a different way....
but, yes, I agree with how you've worded it.

God loves us DESPITE the times we disobey.

But for new Christians I still say we can't go on forums and state that
it's not necessary to obey God which is EXACTLY what some here have said.

It seems you are looking at this as, If we do this for God, He will do that for us. If we do the works, then God will keep us saved.

But I see this completely differently.

We are new people, so we will act in new ways.

You can't say to an unbeliever, do the works of God, they can't. And when you say to the believer, Do the works of God, well, of course! That's who we are!

When you say, follow the rules, you are consigning someone to a dead walk of works. But I say live the new man, as God gives us grace to live the new life.

Much love!

 

[marks]

What does that mean?

Give me some examples.

First answer my question please.

Much love!

 

[GodsGrace]

Thanks for your other posts too.. now I can see where you are 'coming from' as the old saying goes...

Fran, on this we will have to agree to differ , we are miles apart on this works thing!

You say:-
Your works keep you saved because God desires obedience.
and I say to that...
OUCH!!!!

It is the work of Jesus Christ on the cross when 1) saved me, 2) keeps me saved.

Yes, God not only desired obedience , He required obedience.
And Jesus came to be what? "Obedient unto death."

Now, for me, to say that God wants something from me like works...infers two things... 1) The job didn't get done by Jesus, so everything is still up for grabs.
2) It infers that I have something good enough 'within me' to give God what He wants.

I am ,and have nothing....but Christ and Him crucified. I can only offer Him in my place, up to the Father.

So, we will just let this drop now.
I have a feeling that we have been here before.

Hugs...H

You just said Jesus obeyed God.
Aren't we supposed to be disciiples of Jesus?
Doesn't that mean learning from Him?
If HE obeyed God, shouldn't we?
If HE offered HIS work on the cross..
shouldn't we be offering our works?
Romans 12:1

 

[GodsGrace]

First answer my question please.

Much love!

WHAT WAS IT!

 

[marks]

What does that mean?

Jesus in me lives, conforming my life to His, and as He conforms me, I live His way, and living His way, these are the works we do.

Much love!