Wormwood,
Blessings in Christ; may our God continue to grow and strengthen you in the love and knowledge of Him in this new year!
I am opting against quoting fully your two responses. Through this post though I hope to give more light in accordance with what I interpret the scriptures to present. I do see this side topic as being attached to the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints, so I am yet to think we need to start our own thread. I appreciate your position and have had time to contemplate prayerfully over what was presented. I have also read over some of Oz's post in the thread "Grace" knowing of the doctrines being supported there and fully appreciating them also. I must reiterate that I am unstudied in one school or system of doctrine, so as I encounter new insight into the text I am completely open to allowing that insight to form my opinion. Thus as stated I have held to some points of Calvinism and to others of Arminianism. As I read into the fathers of these seemingly opposing views I am finding they were much closer in their interpretations than their proponents present. This perhaps is why it may seem I am using a specific jargon when in truth I am simply attempting to convey what I interpret without all the theological baggage attached. So please if I use a term that you perceive may have a specific meaning, understand I may not mean what you interpret me presenting. I apologize in advance for any confusion as this is not my intent.
Concerning election and the depraved state of humanity we have differing views which is evident. I am convinced thus far God is completely sovereign in His election of individuals for salvation. From what I currently understand you are convinced God is sovereign in the election of the plan of salvation, yet individuals are sovereign in their choice of believing the gospel, thus those who opt against the gospel have no excuse. If I have presented your view falsely please correct me, yet please be succinct in your idea of election concerning individuals. The driving force behind my advancing idea of sovereign election is the depraved state of humanity. I see the scriptures present the idea that man chooses darkness over the light out of shame and personal wicked desire.
John Piper speaks well here...
When we speak of man's depravity we mean man's natural condition apart from any grace exerted by God to restrain or transform man.
There is no doubt that man could perform more evil acts toward his fellow man than he does. But if he is restrained from performing more evil acts by motives that are not owing to his glad submission to God, then even his "virtue" is evil in the sight of God.
Romans 14:23 says, "Whatever does not proceed from faith is sin." This is a radical indictment of all natural "virtue" that does not flow from a heart humbly relying on God's grace.
The terrible condition of man's heart will never be recognized by people who assess it only in relation to other men. Romans 14:23 makes plain that depravity is our condition in relation to God primarily, and only secondarily in relation to man. Unless we start here we will never grasp the totality of our natural depravity.
https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/piper/depravity.html
I think we both agree man's heart is desperately wicked, yet I affirm as do the Scriptures that man does not seek God (Romans 3:9-10,18). Here somehow we disagree.
Referring back to John 3:20-21 I affirm some do come to the light yet it is clear those whose works are the deeds of God come to the light. "
his deeds have been wrought in God." Apart from God's work men hate the light and will not come to it lest their deeds be exposed. Looking back to the garden Adam and Eve hid themselves from the Lord. It was by God drawing them out that they came to Him. So it is for all the progeny of Adam; it is by a work of God that humans come into the Light.
I like this quote also by Piper...
In Romans 7:18 Paul says, "I know that no good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh." This is a radical confession of the truth that in our rebellion nothing we think or feel is good. It is all part of our rebellion. The fact that Paul qualifies his depravity with the words, "that is, in my flesh," shows that he is willing to affirm the good of anything that the Spirit of God produces in him (Romans 15:18). "Flesh" refers to man in his natural state apart from the work of God's Spirit. So what Paul is saying in Romans 7:18 is that apart from the work of God's Spirit all we think and feel and do is not good. Picking up on the term "flesh" above (man apart from the grace of God) we find Paul declaring it to be totally enslaved to rebellion. Romans 8:7-8 says, "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, indeed it cannot; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God."
The "mind of the flesh" is the mind of man apart from the indwelling Spirit of God ("You are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God really dwells in you," Romans 8:9). So natural man has a mindset that does not and cannot submit to God. Man cannot reform himself. Ephesians 2:1 says that we Christians were all once "dead in trespasses and sins." The point of deadness is that we were incapable of any life with God. Our hearts were like a stone toward God (Ephesians 4:18; Ezekiel 36:26). Our hearts were blind and incapable of seeing the glory of God in Christ (2 Corinthians 4:4-6). We were totally unable to reform ourselves.
This is the natural state of all of humanity until God supersedes with the truth of His gospel modifying the condition of the heart of the individual.
For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ. (2 Corinthians 4:6)
This action by God is ultimately prepared in the mind of God before the foundations of the world, yet is realized by the individual at the moment of belief. Although it is the act of God that initiates and activates belief the individual freely chooses positively in the belief. Thus I would say God is first cause in belief as He is planner, initiate, and positive force bringing the individual to belief by previously preparing the individual's heart before birth. All of this is to the praise of His glory for His namesake in accordance with His will and good pleasure.
To support this idea of God preparing hearts I use this scripture:
From the ESV: For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother's womb.
I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works; my soul knows it very well. - Psalm 139:13-14
Here is the NET:
Certainly you made my mind and heart; you wove me together in my mother's womb.
Here is the NIV: For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.
This is your quote:
I think Romans 5 makes it clear though that Christ's work that we live under original grace, not original sin. I'll just leave it at that for now, but there is much that could be said in this area if you want to explore it deeper.
I say lets explore deeper. Let me state I see the context of Romans 5 through verse 5:1. Thereby when Paul speaks of justification, reconciliation, and righteousness he is speaking of those who are of the faith. Perhaps you see something different. I am eager to see.
This chapter 5 of Romans is the bearer of condemnation for infants and mentally handicapped, which is why they need God's mercy. In truth death is still in effect for infants, mentally handicapped, and even the unborn. Thus literal and spiritual death are still in the world which are the effect of one transgression. This is the point of Romans 5:14 and it holds true for all unbelievers. Ezekiel 18:19-20 does not contradict this.
Another quote:
3. God does not delight in the destruction of the wicked, yet His divine justice must be served. In His mercy He chooses to save some.
Hmmmm, could you rephrase this? I dont see what you are asking. I think the notion that "He chooses to save some" is in direct conflict with the Scriptural teaching that God desires all to be saved (if the idea that "chooses" means a monergistic, predetermined choice to save some and not others). I would word it like this: "God does not delight in the destruction of the wicked, yet his divine justice must be served. In mercy, he offers salvation to all. Some choose to accept his offer of salvation."
Your quote of #3 was actually my response to your question. There is no conflict between saving some and desiring all to be saved. Man is in rebellion to God, and God is just. In His mercy he offers His salvation to all, yet all reject God. None seek Him for they are hostile towards Him, in rebellion. In His grace and mercy He saves some from even themselves. These are chosen out of His will for His purpose.
18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?”
20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?
21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
23 And
He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
Verse 24 is bolded for emphasis to show context...Paul is stating "even us" individual believers whom He also called. This calling is an effectual calling as you can seen in Romans 8:28-33. In Romans 9 Paul is speaking of sovereign election of nations and individuals evidenced in the initial context of the Jews, switching to the twins both as nations and individuals, then to Pharaoh as an individual, and finally to individual believers from among the Jews and Gentiles.
