Pope wants to change the Lord's Prayer

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aspen

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LIARS FEARFUL OF TRUTH! Love how you alter post, to make your arguments more legit. One can not expect Christianity here.

You mean clarifying my opinion? Yes, guilty as charged.....

My opinion is open to influence based on reflection, prayer and outside sources - i believe this is a good thing.

Opnions don't mean much in regard to justification and sanctification, unless they are mistaken for the true self or absolute truth and then, doubled down on and forced on to others
 
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aspen

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seems i recall it used to be "...and lead us, not into temptation, but..."

which was supposed to essentially reflect the pope's pov?

The Pope is concerned that people might conclude, based on the present translation of the Lords Prayer that God is tempting us. He suggests that people interprete the Greek more towards ‘do not allow us to follow our temptations’ - i may not have that perfectly clear, but i think I am close
 

aspen

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Begging the question, sometimes known by its Latin name petitio principii (meaning assuming the initial point), is a logical fallacy in which the writer or speaker assumes the statement under examination to be true. In other words, begging the question involves using a premise to support itself.

Perhaps begging the question is not accurate - how about asking me a question you have already answered and condemned?
 

bbyrd009

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The Pope is concerned that people might conclude, based on the present translation of the Lords Prayer that God is tempting us. He suggests that people interprete the Greek more towards ‘do not allow us to follow our temptations’ - i may not have that perfectly clear, but i think I am close
it seems strange to me that ppl haven't figured out that a Lex allows one to translate to fit the context for themselves, anyway. Not like it hasn't been going on since forever. Of course ppl hear "pope" connected with the process and flip out i guess. Why do i get the impression that if Trump did it no one would bat an eyelash? Ha, not true, i guess. But seems to me the difference in the two men's hearts is pretty apparent.

This suggests some pretty obvious human blind spots to me; we should prolly address "How having a king leads a nation into suspicion," and more important "How to make your own translation from the Lexicon," which i can already hear the Fundies howling, but after all, don't we do this every time we examine a verse? i don't think the AMP is even completely up to the job, myself.

i've spent zero brain space on this so far, but i gotta ask if good parents ever "tempt" their children?
all of the scenarios that i can brainstorm there suggest at least a lack of respect for the child.
the motive in testing just is not the same as in tempting, from my pov.

personally i thought "Lead us, not into temptation," with the comma there, covered it just fine; wonder when the comma disappeared myself.
 
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Pisteuo

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it seems strange to me that ppl haven't figured out that a Lex allows one to translate to fit the context for themselves, anyway. Not like it hasn't been going on since forever. Of course ppl hear "pope" connected with the process and flip out i guess. Why do i get the impression that if Trump did it no one would bat an eyelash? Ha, not true, i guess. But seems to me the difference in the two men's hearts is pretty apparent.

This suggests some pretty obvious human blind spots to me; we should prolly address "How having a king leads a nation into suspicion," and more important "How to make your own translation from the Lexicon," which i can already hear the Fundies howling, but after all, don't we do this every time we examine a verse? i don't think the AMP is even completely up to the job, myself.

i've spent zero brain space on this so far, but i gotta ask if good parents ever "tempt" their children?
all of the scenarios that i can brainstorm there suggest at least a lack of respect for the child.
the motive in testing just is not the same as in tempting, from my pov.

personally i thought "Lead us, not into temptation," with the comma there, covered it just fine; wonder when the comma disappeared myself.
I don't follow how the comma changes it, given the wording. I've always thought this verse to be a little odd and out of character with the rest of the prayer. I guess it could read to others simply as "lead us down the straight, narrow path". Which imo is fine. I don't see God leading us into temptation...but I do wonder what Job thought at the time.
 

BreadOfLife

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Why don't you all do your homework??
You're pretty lousy anti-Catholics - not that there is any such thins as a "good" one . . .

This story is another classic example of how the media twists the Pope's words - and how anti-Catholics all over the world jump on those lies like a feeding frenzy. Here is what the Pope ACTUALLY said:

The French church adopted a new translation of the Lord’s Prayer for use in the liturgy. It went into effect on the first Sunday of Advent.
Basically, they changed the line that in English reads “and lead us not into temptation” to one that means “do not let us fall into temptation.”

Pope Francis simply said:
The French have changed the text and their translation says “don't let me fall into temptation,” . . . It's me who falls. It's not Him who pushes me into temptation, as if I fell. A father doesn't do that. A father helps you to get up right away. The one who leads into temptation is Satan.

That's it. He didn't "change" anything - so stop with the proliferation of liberal media lies . . .
 

epostle1

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IMO, the doxology is irrelevant because it is recited as part of the liturgy. It is neither an addition or a subtraction but a tradition that Protestants kept.
 

ScottA

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The Pope apparently is a believer in all grace and no wrath. But he's wrong.

If "this is the day the Lord has made" and "sufficient for the day is its own trouble"...then the Lord's prayer is perfect.
 

truth333

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The Pope apparently is a believer in all grace and no wrath. But he's wrong.

If "this is the day the Lord has made" and "sufficient for the day is its own trouble"...then the Lord's prayer is perfect.

Hi Scott, here are the forensic facts regarding francis, from his own mouth. By the way, I am a traditional catholic.

Antipope Francis - YouTube
 

epostle1

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Hi Scott, here are the forensic facts regarding francis, from his own mouth. By the way, I am a traditional catholic.

Antipope Francis - YouTube
you tube could come up with a billion anti-popes and there are enough stupid people to believe it. 40 is really stretching it. I could accept 10, but not 40. Where is the evidence, and who defines an anti-pope? Heretics like Archbishop Levfvre? Gimmie a break.

Funny how any Protestant can translate their own Bible, but if the Pope raises questions about a translation of one small phrase, and seeks to emphasize a loving Father as opposed to a sinful humanity, then he must be wrong because he is the pope, his content means nothing.

Close examination of the "change" of the Lord's Prayer is actually closer to the original Aramaic, the language that Jesus spoke, that predates any Greek translations. There is nothing wrong with it.
 
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truth333

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you tube could come up with a billion anti-popes and there are enough stupid people to believe it. 40 is really stretching it. I could accept 10, but not 40. Where is the evidence, and who defines an anti-pope? Heretics like Archbishop Levfvre? Gimmie a break.

Funny how any Protestant can translate their own Bible, but if the Pope raises questions about a translation of one small phrase, and seeks to emphasize a loving Father as opposed to a sinful humanity, then he must be wrong because he is the pope, his content means nothing.

Close examination of the "change" of the Lord's Prayer is actually closer to the original Aramaic, the language that Jesus spoke, that predates any Greek translations. There is nothing wrong with it.

You misunderstand the function of a true pope. A true pope protects, preserves and defends the faith, not change it. Man cannot undo what Jesus put into place. Just one example below in the gospel of Matthew.

Matthew 19:4-6
Who answering, said to them: Have ye not read, that he who made man from the beginning, Made them male and female? And he said: For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they two shall be in one flesh. Therefore now they are not two, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let no man put asunder.

The Oath Against Modernism Pope Pius X - 1910
"I . . . . firmly embrace and accept each and every definition that has been set forth and declared by the unerring teaching authority of the Church, especially those principal truths which are directly opposed to the errors of this day. …
Secondly, I accept and acknowledge the external proofs of revelation, that is, divine acts and especially miracles and prophecies as the surest signs of the divine origin of the Christian religion and I hold that these same proofs are well adapted to the understanding of all eras and all men, even of this time. Thirdly, I believe with equally firm faith that the Church, the guardian and teacher of the revealed word, was personally instituted by the real and historical Christ when he lived among us, and that the Church was built upon Peter, the prince of the apostolic hierarchy, and his successors for the duration of time. Fourthly, I sincerely hold that the doctrine of faith was handed down to us from the apostles through the orthodox Fathers in exactly the same meaning and always in the same purport. Therefore, I entirely reject the heretical’ misrepresentation that dogmas evolve and change from one meaning to another different from the one which the Church held previously. I also condemn every error according to which, in place of the divine deposit which has been given to the spouse of Christ to be carefully guarded by her, there is put a philosophical figment or product of a human conscience that has gradually been developed by human effort and will continue to develop indefinitely. Fifthly, I hold with certainty and sincerely confess that faith is not a blind sentiment of religion welling up from the depths of the subconscious under the impulse of the heart and the motion of a will trained to morality; but faith is a genuine assent of the intellect to truth received by hearing from an external source. By this assent, because of the authority of the supremely truthful God, we believe to be true that which has been revealed and attested to by a personal God, our creator and lord.

Furthermore, with due reverence, I submit and adhere with my whole heart to the condemnations, declarations, and all the prescripts contained in the encyclical Pascendi and in the decree Lamentabili,especially those concerning what is known as the history of dogmas. I also reject the error of those who say that the faith held by the Church can contradict history, and that Catholic dogmas, in the sense in which they are now understood, are irreconcilable with a more realistic view of the origins of the Christian religion."

The Catholic Encyclopedia, “Heresy,” 1914, Vol. 7, p. 261: “The pope himself, if notoriously guilty of heresy, would cease to be pope because he would cease to be a member of the Church.”

St. Robert Bellarmine, Cardinal and Doctor of the Church, De Romano Pontifice, II, 30: "A pope who is a manifest heretic automatically (per se) ceases to be pope and head, just as he ceases automatically to be a Christian and a member of the Church. Wherefore, he can be judged and punished by the Church. This is the teaching of all the ancient Fathers who teach that manifest heretics immediately lose all jurisdiction."

St. Robert Bellarmine, De Romano Pontifice, II, 30:
"This principle is most certain. The non-Christian cannot in any way be Pope, as Cajetan himself admits (ib. c. 26). The reason for this is that he cannot be head of what he is not a member; now he who is not a Christian is not a member of the Church, and a manifest heretic is not a Christian, as is clearly taught by St. Cyprian (lib. 4, epist. 2), St. Athanasius (Scr. 2 cont. Arian.), St. Augustine (lib. De great. Christ. Cap. 20), St. Jerome (contra Lucifer.) and others; therefore the manifest heretic cannot be Pope."

St. Francis De Sales (17th century), Doctor of the Church, The Catholic Controversy, pp. 305-306: "Now when he [the Pope] is explicitly a heretic, he falls ipso facto from his dignity and out of the Church..."

St. Antoninus (1459): "In the case in which the pope would become a heretic, he would find himself, by that fact alone and without any other sentence, separated from the Church. A head separated from a body cannot, as long as it remains separated, be head of the same body from which it was cut off. A pope who would be separated from the Church by heresy, therefore, would by that very fact itself cease to be head of the Church. He could not be a heretic and remain pope, because, since he is outside of the Church, he cannot possess the keys of the Church." (Summa Theologica, cited in Actes de Vatican I. V. Frond pub.)

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441:
The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives...”2

Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis Christi (# 23), June 29, 1943:
“For not every sin, however grave it may be, is such as of its own nature to sever a man from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy or apostasy.”3
 
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truth333

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Heretics like Archbishop Levfvre? Gimmie a break.

By the way, I do not follow the SSPX or any other heretical group like that! Yes, Levfvre was a manifest heretic, and the SSPX is manifestly heretical. The catholic church has been reduced to a small faithful remnant. We are living through the world wide apostasy from God, this occurred with the invalid election of john XXIII in 1958 and the revolution of the robber council of the second vatican council.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come a revolt first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, Who opposeth, and is lifted up above all that is called God, or that is worshipped, so that he sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself as if he were God.
 

Helen

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Sorry to butt in...but could someone give in a nutshell...what IS an anti-pope.? I have never heard this before.

Thanks...H
 

FHII

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Sorry to butt in...but could someone give in a nutshell...what IS an anti-pope.? I have never heard this before.

Thanks...H
Why, he's the pope for all us anti catholithics that BOL has been ridiculing!

Actually it has to do with when someone tries to seize the throne of the Pope or more than ome person claim to be one.
 
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truth333

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Sorry to butt in...but could someone give in a nutshell...what IS an anti-pope.? I have never heard this before.

Thanks...H

Antipope. Antipope – a false claimant, claiming to be the pope (i.e. a false claimant, claiming to be the Bishop of Rome). There have been over 40 antipopes in Church history, including some who reigned in Rome.

Judas was a false bishop.

Acts 1:16-20 Men, brethren, the scripture must needs be fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who was the leader of them that apprehended Jesus: [17] Who was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. [18] And he indeed hath possessed a field of the reward of iniquity, and being hanged, burst asunder in the midst: and all his bowels gushed out. [19] And it became known to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem: so that the same field was called in their tongue, Haceldama, that is to say, The field of blood. [20] For it is written in the book of Psalms: Let their habitation become desolate, and let there be none to dwell therein. And his bishopric let another take.

St. Francis of Assisi prophesied that a man uncanonically will be elected to the pontificate.

The Prophecy of St. Francis About a Future Pope
1. The time is fast approaching in which there will be great trials and afflictions; perplexities and dissensions, both spiritual and temporal, will abound; the charity of many will grow cold, and the malice of the wicked will increase.

2. The devils will have unusual power, the immaculate purity of our Order, and of others, will be so much obscured that there will be very few Christians who will obey the true Sovereign Pontiff and the Roman Church with loyal hearts and perfect charity. At the time of this tribulation a man, not canonically elected, will be raised to the Pontificate, who, by his cunning, will endeavor to draw many into error and death.

3. Then scandals will be multiplied, our Order will be divided, and many others will be entirely destroyed, because they will consent to error instead of opposing it.

4. There will be such diversity of opinions and schisms among the people, the religious and the clergy, that, except those days were shortened, according to the words of the Gospel, even the elect would be led into error, were they not specially guided, amid such great confusion, by the immense mercy of God.

5. Then our Rule and manner of life will be violently opposed by some, and terrible trials will come upon us. Those who are found faithful will receive the crown of life; but woe to those who, trusting solely in their Order, shall fall into tepidity, for they will not be able to support the temptations permitted for the proving of the elect.

6. Those who preserve in their fervor and adhere to virtue with love and zeal for the truth, will suffer injuries and, persecutions as rebels and schismatics; for their persecutors, urged on by the evil spirits, will say they are rendering a great service to God by destroying such pestilent men from the face of the earth. but the Lord will be the refuge of the afflicted, and will save all who trust in Him. And in order to be like their Head, [Christ] these, the elect, will act with confidence, and by their death will purchase for themselves eternal life; choosing to obey God rather than man, they will fear nothing, and they will prefer to perish rather than consent to falsehood and perfidy.

7. Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it under foot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days JESUS CHRIST WILL SEND THEM NOT A TRUE PASTOR, BUT A DESTROYER." [TAKEN FROM Works of the Seraphic Father St. Francis Of Assisi, Washbourne, 1882, pp. 248-250]

The Antichrist Revealed: The Beast that Was, and Is Not, Has Returned

The Antichrist Identified!

This Explains The Post-Vatican II Confusion & Crisis


The catholic church is the true church of Jesus Christ.

 
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Josho

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I think the Pope doesn't actually mean these things, I reckon he just has his slips up when he speaks in another language, it would be like any of us making a mistake when speaking in a foreign language, and we gotta remember to he is an old guy, in my opinion he has been a pretty good pope.

So let's turn the page to grace. ;)
 

truth333

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I think the Pope doesn't actually mean these things, I reckon he just has his slips up when he speaks in another language, it would be like any of us making a mistake when speaking in a foreign language, and we gotta remember to he is an old guy, in my opinion he has been a pretty good pope.

So let's turn the page to grace. ;)

You suffer from indifferentism and apathy. Just explain away what is incredibly obvious, La, La, La. You treat him like an idiot. He knows what he is doing and what he is saying. He is a manifest heretic.
 

epostle1

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You suffer from indifferentism and apathy. Just explain away what is incredibly obvious, La, La, La. You treat him like an idiot. He knows what he is doing and what he is saying. He is a manifest heretic.blah, blah, blah...
truth333, The Church has survived worse accusers than you over the centuries, and will continue to survive. Do you hate your own mother with the same intensity as you do Holy Mother Church???
image.jpg
 
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