Pope wants to change the Lord's Prayer

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Marymog

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No; complying doesn't mean belief from the heart.
Hi tabletalk,

Are you suggesting that all the members of a certain denominational church (Baptist, Mormon, Catholic, Methodist etc.) that outwardly comply with their Church's doctrines, rules or regulations do not necessarily believe from their heart in those doctrines/rules/regulations?

You have me very confused. At what point does the person become the institution? When they practice AND believe from their heart the doctrines? When they become a pastor/priest? When they become a bishop? A Cardinal? The Pope? How about if they are just the Elders of their church and they are the ones who make up the rules/regulations/doctrines for their church. Are they the institution and the members of that church just.....well just members?

Mary
 

Truth

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For thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever

When Reformers set out to translate the King James Bible, they assumed that a Greek manuscript they possessed was ancient and therefore adopted the phrase "For thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory forever" into the Lord's Prayer.

Thanks! I have never herd that, I don't think it did any harm, But I think there are many changes we are unaware of!
 
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Helen

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So what are you exactly against? The Pope going on the record in an interview with his opinion on what the French did? Or are you just anti-Pope?

Good one! :)

I agree, God does not lead us into temptation...but if keep our heats godward, He will keep us from temptation.

When people scream and fall on the floor because someone dare changes a word...
It brings us back to Why do we insist that the bible is infallible!
And then to the next question - "which translation?"

If God got His message out clearly through the mouth of a Donkey, why do we freak out so much over such small issues?
I believe our walk is called "The walk of Faith"...yet I don't see much faith...it's fear seems to rule the day.
 
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Truth

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What makes you think I'm a rigid legalist?
Far from it. In fact, I resent being called that just because I think we should adhere to what Jesus said.

What is the spirit of the law when it comes to divorce?

Jesus said there is to be no divorce except in cases of fornication. The CC has changed this and made up their own rules as to who can be divorced. Also their own version of annulment. Which is on the increase because of Amoris Laetitia, as I'm sure you understand.

I have a big problem reconciling what Jesus commanded with a person having to remain alone a whole lifetime. So do I listen to Jesus or a church?
Did Paul even understand what Jesus wanted??

The CC DOES allow divorce. I'll give you two reasons, you can check this out with your priest:
1. The husband or wife is depleting the monetary resources of a family due to gambling or any other reason. This breaks down a family and shows no respect for the covenant of marriage.
2. Physical or mental abuse. The husband or wife is not following Ephesians 5. Same as no. 1

The above has nothing to do with annulment which is totally different. Many excuses are being found today to annul a marriage just so persons could get remarried.

So the church says it's ok. Does God say it's ok?
I have a problem with this. Please don't call me a legalist because of this.

Jumping in to give a couple of penny's worth! Keeping the commandments of God is Called Obedience, Keeping the commandments and doctrines of men is called being a legalist!
 
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tabletalk

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Hi tabletalk,

Are you suggesting that all the members of a certain denominational church (Baptist, Mormon, Catholic, Methodist etc.) that outwardly comply with their Church's doctrines, rules or regulations do not necessarily believe from their heart in those doctrines/rules/regulations?

You have me very confused. At what point does the person become the institution? When they practice AND believe from their heart the doctrines? When they become a pastor/priest? When they become a bishop? A Cardinal? The Pope? How about if they are just the Elders of their church and they are the ones who make up the rules/regulations/doctrines for their church. Are they the institution and the members of that church just.....well just members?

Mary

Yes, to your first question. I have no answer to the others.
 

FHII

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Hello,

Italian television did an hour-long interview with Pope Francis. In that interview he was asked about a new version of the Lord’s Prayer in France
where they adopted a new translation of the Lord’s Prayer for use in their liturgy. The French changed the line that in English reads “and lead us not into temptation” to one that means “do not let us fall into temptation.”

The Pope responded to the question by saying: The French have changed the text and their translation says “don’t let me fall into temptation,” . . . It’s me who falls. It’s not Him who pushes me into temptation, as if I fell. A father doesn’t do that. A father helps you to get up right away. The one who leads into temptation is Satan. (Other accounts also report him saying that the “lead us not into temptation” rendering is not a good translation because it is misleading to modern ears).

Making a comment in an interview that a translation can be misleading is not the same thing as mandating a change to The Lords Prayer.

So what are you exactly against? The Pope going on the record in an interview with his opinion on what the French did? Or are you just anti-Pope?

FYI....it’s up to local episcopal conferences what they want to do in this regard.

IHS....Mary

I have provided two verses which show that God has tempted and leads into tempation. He tempted Abraham and the spirit led Jesus to be tempted.

What can be done with those verses other than trying to unexplain them?

I see this as a problem because it tries to re explain God. People think God doesn't tempt anyone (but he did), peopke think that God doesn't lead people to error (but he did), and people don't think he damns people (but he does).

He also has enemies, he is an emeny to some people and hates some people. These are things that are in the Bible.

These are truths. They are glossed over and re explained to make God look like a sweet-pea. He is, but he is alo much more.

One verse says God is love. Amen, but he is also called, "a man of war". No one seems to want to talk about the man of war nor the God that sends strong delusions or lying spirits or the obe who will laugh at your calamities.

No one wants to talk about the God who said he created evil and a set day for it.

So yes, God is love and delivers those who are tempted. But no one seems interested in the other side of him.

So the Pope says a Father doesn't do that. Well, God did!

As for me being an anti Pope.... Its garbage like statements like such which make me not want to participate in these discussions. I disagree with the Pope and all the analysis he gave and many here regurgitate. Does tthat make me an anti Pope (as if he was really that special)?

I simply disagee with his opinioon and I disagee with all who say he didn't change the prayer.
 

aspen

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Thanks! I have never herd that, I don't think it did any harm, But I think there are many changes we are unaware of!

What do you think about Mark 16:9-20? Do you believe it is inspired?
 

aspen

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I have provided two verses which show that God has tempted and leads into tempation. He tempted Abraham and the spirit led Jesus to be tempted.

What can be done with those verses other than trying to unexplain them?

I see this as a problem because it tries to re explain God. People think God doesn't tempt anyone (but he did), peopke think that God doesn't lead people to error (but he did), and people don't think he damns people (but he does).

He also has enemies, he is an emeny to some people and hates some people. These are things that are in the Bible.

These are truths. They are glossed over and re explained to make God look like a sweet-pea. He is, but he is alo much more.

One verse says God is love. Amen, but he is also called, "a man of war". No one seems to want to talk about the man of war nor the God that sends strong delusions or lying spirits or the obe who will laugh at your calamities.

No one wants to talk about the God who said he created evil and a set day for it.

So yes, God is love and delivers those who are tempted. But no one seems interested in the other side of him.

So the Pope says a Father doesn't do that. Well, God did!

As for me being an anti Pope.... Its garbage like statements like such which make me not want to participate in these discussions. I disagree with the Pope and all the analysis he gave and many here regurgitate. Does tthat make me an anti Pope (as if he was really that special)?

I simply disagee with his opinioon and I disagee with all who say he didn't change the prayer.

To address your post - you are not ‘anti’ Pope or antiCatholic and disagreement with Catholic doctrine is not equal to a vendetta.

What i am interested in is your ideas about the Character of God. I can tell you honestly, i cannot and will not worship God based on His sovereignty alone. If He is indeed petty, jealous, vendictive, or fails to follow His own laws, forget it - deal me out.

If the OT is actually an accurate depiction of God’s character from a literal pov, written from God’s perspective, not mans; deal me out.

I have had enough of bullies and despots in my life - I cannot tolerate another, let alone love/worship one; it is aimply more than i can bear.

I am not trying to gloss over the rough parts or ignore them or re-explain them. I truly believe that human beings displace a lot of their own hang ups and insecurities onto God and the inspiration of scripture does not prevent it from happening. It takes nothing away from the message of the Bible, in fact it helps us to see the character of humanity more clearly.
 
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BreadOfLife

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What makes you think I'm a rigid legalist?
Far from it. In fact, I resent being called that just because I think we should adhere to what Jesus said.
What is the spirit of the law when it comes to divorce?
Jesus said there is to be no divorce except in cases of fornication. The CC has changed this and made up their own rules as to who can be divorced. Also their own version of annulment. Which is on the increase because of Amoris Laetitia, as I'm sure you understand.
I have a big problem reconciling what Jesus commanded with a person having to remain alone a whole lifetime. So do I listen to Jesus or a church?
Did Paul even understand what Jesus wanted??
The CC DOES allow divorce. I'll give you two reasons, you can check this out with your priest:
1. The husband or wife is depleting the monetary resources of a family due to gambling or any other reason. This breaks down a family and shows no respect for the covenant of marriage.
2. Physical or mental abuse. The husband or wife is not following Ephesians 5. Same as no. 1


The above has nothing to do with annulment which is totally different. Many excuses are being found today to annul a marriage just so persons could get remarried.

So the church says it's ok. Does God say it's ok?
I have a problem with this. Please don't call me a legalist because of this.
This is yet another reason why it's so tragic that a person like you who is ignorant of what the Church teaches - was a catechist.

A spouse is not required to LIVE with an abusive spouse. this is not an "endorsement" of divorce - but a matter of safety.
SAME situation when a spouse robs the family of its financial security. Separation is NOT divorce. Even if a spouse is cheating - this is not an endorsement of divorce. these things MAY qualify for an annulment, pending an investigation, which is simply a decree that a valid marriage never took place.

Trust me - you're better off doing your homework before responding . . .
 

GodsGrace

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This is yet another reason why it's so tragic that a person like you who is ignorant of what the Church teaches - was a catechist.

A spouse is not required to LIVE with an abusive spouse. this is not an "endorsement" of divorce - but a matter of safety.
SAME situation when a spouse robs the family of its financial security. Separation is NOT divorce. Even if a spouse is cheating - this is not an endorsement of divorce. these things MAY qualify for an annulment, pending an investigation, which is simply a decree that a valid marriage never took place.

Trust me - you're better off doing your homework before responding . . .
What makes you think I care to speak to you?
Our conversations are over.
 

BreadOfLife

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What makes you think I care to speak to you?
Our conversations are over.
That's fine if you don't want to speak with me.
That won't stop me, however from pointing out when you have misrepresented Catholic teaching - as you usually do.

My mission here is not to argue anyway. It is to expose falsehoods about the Catholic Church and set the record straight. I'm not trying to convert you. I'm just stopping you from poisoning people's minds with falsehoods.
 

GodsGrace

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Jumping in to give a couple of penny's worth! Keeping the commandments of God is Called Obedience, Keeping the commandments and doctrines of men is called being a legalist!
Thanks.
I like obeying Jesus and God's commandments, the moral ones. Like the 10 commandments.

Let's say I TRY to obey them. Don't always succeed, but Jesus is there to cover for me. Or...He covers me, that's more biblical.

Galatians 3:27
 

BreadOfLife

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Jumping in to give a couple of penny's worth! Keeping the commandments of God is Called Obedience, Keeping the commandments and doctrines of men is called being a legalist!
That would mean that all of the "doctrines of men" that were invented in the 16th century and beyond make the followers of these men "Legalists" . . .
 

Marymog

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Yes, to your first question. I have no answer to the others.
Hi tabletalk,

Are you saying that the people who are outwardly complying with all their church rules/regulations/doctrines but inwardly don't believe from their heart in those doctrines etc are living a lie? Wouldn't they be the wolves amongst the sheep?

You said that you "separate the institution from the individual who belongs to it". How are you able to make that separation but yet you can't articulate to me HOW you make that separation?

IHS....Mary

 

aspen

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Self-righteousness (also called sanctimoniousness, sententiousness, and holier-than-thou attitudes) is a feeling or display of (usually smug) moral superiority derived from a sense that one's beliefs, actions, or affiliations are of greater virtue than those of the average person.

Definitions are always helpful
 

FHII

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What i am interested in is your ideas about the Character of God. I can tell you honestly, i cannot and will not worship God based on His sovereignty alone. If He is indeed petty, jealous, vendictive, or fails to follow His own laws, forget it - deal me out.

Aspen:

So what have I said that is not true about God? He is all those things but as I noted he is also love. He is also lomg suffering and forgiving. He is also "good" and even the things we say are bad are good.

Furthermore, my point is that yes... God can and may tempt you and lead you too temptation. For the Pope to say otherwise is wrong. But according to his word and his history, he will provide a way out.

Further-furthermore... Ignoring attributes of God or in this case flat out denying they exist is not coming closer to God.

Or do you disagree?
 

Marymog

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I have provided two verses which show that God has tempted and leads into tempation. He tempted Abraham and the spirit led Jesus to be tempted.

What can be done with those verses other than trying to unexplain them?

I see this as a problem because it tries to re explain God. People think God doesn't tempt anyone (but he did), peopke think that God doesn't lead people to error (but he did), and people don't think he damns people (but he does).

He also has enemies, he is an emeny to some people and hates some people. These are things that are in the Bible.

These are truths. They are glossed over and re explained to make God look like a sweet-pea. He is, but he is alo much more.

One verse says God is love. Amen, but he is also called, "a man of war". No one seems to want to talk about the man of war nor the God that sends strong delusions or lying spirits or the obe who will laugh at your calamities.

No one wants to talk about the God who said he created evil and a set day for it.

So yes, God is love and delivers those who are tempted. But no one seems interested in the other side of him.

So the Pope says a Father doesn't do that. Well, God did!

As for me being an anti Pope.... Its garbage like statements like such which make me not want to participate in these discussions. I disagree with the Pope and all the analysis he gave and many here regurgitate. Does tthat make me an anti Pope (as if he was really that special)?

I simply disagee with his opinioon and I disagee with all who say he didn't change the prayer.
Hi,

Your Genesis 22:1 example is better interpreted as TESTED not tempted. That makes Genesis 22:1 a poor example.

In your Matthew 4 example it was the devil who was tempting Jesus. God allowed it to happen (actually it had to happen) just like God allows it to happen to you and me and everyone on this earth.

The Pope didn't change the Lords Prayer. If he did, where is your evidence?

Mary
 
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FHII

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Hi,

So your opinion is that God pushes us into temptation?

I believe he delivers us from temptation.....if we pray to Him for it.

The Pope didn't change the Lords Prayer. If he did, where is your evidence?

Mary

Marymog:

I believe he can and I have provided scripural evidence he did.

I also believe he delivers us from tempation if we pray for it, but the Pope took that part of the prayer out! "Lead us not into tempation." thats the part of the prayer that protects us.

Technically soeaking, this verse doesn't even says the Lord does lead us into tempation. Its saying lead us otherwise: its saying deliver us from evil (ehich he can do since he created evil).

The Pope didn't change it. He wants to. Evidence? Easy. It isn't the same! Its like asking for evidence for a sloth not being a cat.
 

Marymog

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Marymog:

I believe he can and I have provided scripural evidence he did.

I also believe he delivers us from tempation if we pray for it, but the Pope took that part of the prayer out! "Lead us not into tempation." thats the part of the prayer that protects us.

Technically soeaking, this verse doesn't even says the Lord does lead us into tempation. Its saying lead us otherwise: its saying deliver us from evil (ehich he can do since he created evil).

The Pope didn't change it. He wants to. Evidence? Easy. It isn't the same! Its like asking for evidence for a sloth not being a cat.
I apologize FHII.

I was editing while you were typing. My post is different now.

Once again, I apologize.

Mary
 

epostle1

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What makes you think I'm a rigid legalist?
Far from it. In fact, I resent being called that just because I think we should adhere to what Jesus said.

What is the spirit of the law when it comes to divorce?

Jesus said there is to be no divorce except in cases of fornication.
That is not what Jesus said, that is what Protestants claim Jesus said.
The CC has changed this and made up their own rules as to who can be divorced. Also their own version of annulment. Which is on the increase because of Amoris Laetitia, as I'm sure you understand.
You don't understand. Amoris Laetitia did not cause more annulments, that's absurd.

I have a big problem reconciling what Jesus commanded with a person having to remain alone a whole lifetime. So do I listen to Jesus or a church?
Did Paul even understand what Jesus wanted??[/quote] Your big problem is not understanding what Jesus commanded, which is the same as what the Church teaches. In fact, separating what Jesus commanded from what the Church teaches is Protestantism to the core. Therefore you don't know what the Church teaches or you are a closet Protestant.
The CC DOES allow divorce. I'll give you two reasons, you can check this out with your priest:
1. The husband or wife is depleting the monetary resources of a family due to gambling or any other reason. This breaks down a family and shows no respect for the covenant of marriage.
2. Physical or mental abuse. The husband or wife is not following Ephesians 5. Same as no. 1
There is no divorce in the CC. We cannot summarize reasons for divorce in a forum because each case is different. You have blurred the difference between divorce and annulments. Most of the readers in this forum are anti-Catholic and you are sowing seeds of confusion and I am left with giving long explanations of divorce and annulment that's off topic. You should read the Catholic understanding of Matthew 19:9 and leave the erroneous Protestant view alone.
The above has nothing to do with annulment which is totally different. Many excuses are being found today to annul a marriage just so persons could get remarried.
Oh, we can't have people pick up the pieces of their shattered lives, and get married (there is no remarriage). Let's keep them miserable. Tribunals don't let excuses go by that easily. Again, you don't know what you are talking about.

So the church says it's ok. Does God say it's ok?
I have a problem with this. Please don't call me a legalist because of this.
Your faulty interpretation of a complex document is not ok. But you are under the influence of cheap media tabloids that twist Amoris Laetitia and numerous other church documents into something that is unrecognizable.

"...yours is the Protestant position and it is based on a misunderstanding of the application of the Exception Clause. Here is why. Protestants want to except adultery from porneia because they incorrectly interpret the Exception Clause to apply to both the divorce and remarriage. They (at least many of them) correctly believe that it is immoral to divorce and remarry for adultery. Thus, they believe that porneia cannot mean adultery because, according to their interpretation, it is permissible to divorce and remarry for reasons other than adultery (i.e., incest). If porneia included adultery, then, according to their interpretation, it would be okay to divorce and remarry for adultery but this is not true. That is why they argue that porneia does NOT include adultery. You have fallen into this error, and it makes your exegesis of Matthew 19:9 also erroneous.

The weight of the exegetical evidence, as well as the Church Fathers and Medievals (Clement of Alexandria, Basil, Ambrose, Jerome, Augustine, Gregory the Great, Lombard, Bonaventure, Aquinas, Bellarmine) and the Council of Trent, all side with the Catholic position (which, of course, happens to be my position as well): the Exception Clause applies to the divorce only, not the remarriage.

Porneia, Divorce, and Remarriage ::