Pre-trib rapture!

[rebuilder 454]

Matthew 24​

9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
****************************************************************************************************************
the following is still in the future, the rapture is not secret, only the timing is secret. the rapture is loud and witnessed by all.

The Great Tribulation​

15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the [c]elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.

26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
**************************************************
v28, the carcass eaten by eagles signifies great death and destruction of the wicked at the return of Christ. they are taken away to be consumed as in hell.
*************************************************

The Coming of the Son of Man​

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
************************************************************************************
v31, return of Christ is the time of the rapture.
Christ is telling His believers what things they can experience during the time of the great tribulation.
Christ recaps the story with more details here at v36
The ones taken are the ones destroyed. The ones left inherit the earth.

**********************************************************************

No One Knows the Day or Hour​

36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of [f]heaven, but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what [g]hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what [h]hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
*****************************
The timing of this is secret, but the event is experienced by all who are on the earth,
Including those God brings with Christ from heaven at His return

you posted mat 24:30,31
You are showing us AFTER the trib ANGELS gather, NOT Jesus
And it is FROM HEAVEN, NOT earth.
So you have shown us, the gathering postrib is not the rapture at all.

 

[rebuilder 454]

...and right on cue, you left out the gathering a few sentences later that is before the flood.
Ahem, that one is in fact the rapture, vividly declared by Jesus himself.
There is No rapture at the second coming on horses.
Nobody has ever found any verse declaring it.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Matthew 24, Jesus teaching is all about His second coming. It all flows down to that event.
Luke 17 is the same teaching.

And that second coming is vividly depicted in rev 19.
The church is seen in heaven for the wedding feast, and seen mounted on the white horses ready to return to earth ( as Jesus depicted in Noah. Noah leaves earth and is lifted into the heavens. Then returns to earth POSTJUDGEMENT)
Pretrib rapture to heaven, return postrib. Same as Jesus depicted.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Let's go thru that then, post those relevant words here and let's see what it says.

Also note that mat 25 is the rapture.
The groom/Jesus comes for the worthy saints. The bride.
They go immediately into the marriage chamber.
That is in heaven, as Jesus prophesied at the last supper.
Postribs have Jesus taking the bride in a uturn back to the brides house,(earth)

 

[Davy]

Proof of the Rapture is found in the last book of the Bible.

No it is not.

There is NO Biblical proof of a Pre-tribulational Rapture.

Jesus Himself in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 showed that His coming to gather His faithful saints is AFTER... the tribulation, NOT prior to it.

The Pre-trib Rapture theory is a leaven doctrine from men, and was first preached in a Christian church by John Nelson Darby in 1830's Great Britain. For 1,800 years prior to that, the Christian Church held to a Post-tribulational coming of Christ Jesus.

 

[Scott Downey]

you posted mat 24:30,31
You are showing us AFTER the trib ANGELS gather, NOT Jesus
And it is FROM HEAVEN, NOT earth.
So you have shown us, the gathering postrib is not the rapture at all.

Their are living in the body Christians on the earth at that time​

The Coming of the Son of Man​

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
****************************

Notice Trumpet and angels gathering the saints. Yes from Heaven but this is the same thing happening in 1 Thessalonians which also includes living people being caught up into the air as Christ descends from Heaven, the RAPTURE is at Christ's return. It is not a secret rapture, it is loud and visible to all people. If you wish, v14 is the gathering of the dead saints in heaven that God brings with Christ at His return. FACTS, gathered from the 4 winds, WELL, the living Christians are caught up into the AIR so into the heavens at this time, So it also applies to them v31....Christ gathers the dead in the Lord and the living in the Lord in the air, so from one end of heaven to the other and those caught up into the air are all joined together.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
New King James Version

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen [b]asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who [c]sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [a]asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
*************************************************************************************************
The resurrection of the dead happens at this time. The dead, their living spirits are in Heaven, at this time when Christ descends their dead bodied are raised up. A tremendously visible event takes place, certainly no secret rapture at all. The only thing secret about this is the timing of when this happens.

 

[Scott Downey]

The other odd thing about people is they all call 1 thess 4 the rapture chapter and use it as proof of the rapture.
But they seem to miss that this is also the resurrection of the dead in Christ.
And miss that this is the coming of the Lord when He comes with a Trumpet and shouting and all the angels with Him. It is a grand and visible event to all the world to see. Not secret at all. It is also described as a sudden destruction.

This is also the judgement of the wicked as when He does return it is in flaming fire
2 thess 1
3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and [a]tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest[b] evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer;

6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with [c]tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who [d]believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

And also Jude describes the same event, God bringing the saints with Him when the Lord comes back.

14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”

 

[Scott Downey]

This is also a secret rapture proof they use
The thief in the night they call the secret coming
They seem to miss that this is a SUDDEN DESTRUCTION of the wicked, so then it is not a secret invisible coming only for the saints, as the judgement of the wicked happens at this time also.
This is a time of wrath on the wicked. Christ does not secretly rapture believers and leave the wicked to continue on being wicked.
This is the DAY of the Lord.
We believers are told to watch and be sober, so we are still down on the earth... at this time at the Day of the Lord/

1 Thessalonians 5
New King James Version
The Day of the Lord
5 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be [a]sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

11 Therefore comfort each other and [c]edify one another, just as you also are doing.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Their are living in the body Christians on the earth at that time​

The Coming of the Son of Man​

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
****************************

Notice Trumpet and angels gathering the saints. Yes from Heaven but this is the same thing happening in 1 Thessalonians which also includes living people being caught up into the air as Christ descends from Heaven, the RAPTURE is at Christ's return. It is not a secret rapture, it is loud and visible to all people. If you wish, v14 is the gathering of the dead saints in heaven that God brings with Christ at His return. FACTS, gathered from the 4 winds, WELL, the living Christians are caught up into the AIR so into the heavens at this time, So it also applies to them v31....Christ gathers the dead in the Lord and the living in the Lord in the air, so from one end of heaven to the other and those caught up into the air are all joined together.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
New King James Version

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen [b]asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who [c]sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [a]asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
*************************************************************************************************
The resurrection of the dead happens at this time. The dead, their living spirits are in Heaven, at this time when Christ descends their dead bodied are raised up. A tremendously visible event takes place, certainly no secret rapture at all. The only thing secret about this is the timing of when this happens.

You have several obstacles in that leap that you made. Number one being Jesus marked the Rapture Before the Flood. Jesus marked the rapture before Sodom was destroyed. So in your Doctrine you actually have lot of removed after Sodom is destroyed. You also have Noah removed after the flood. But that's just the beginning because as I've pointed out, the setting for the rapture, is peacetime, free Commerce, and normal life.
All pretrib rapture verses have those non destroyed earth, non wartime settings.
You do realize that the setting you need for a post tribulation rapture is a torn up Earth and any believers remaining ,which is a very huge Grand Canyon leap, would be running from Hideout to hideout, with the Antichrist chasing right behind them.
I have heard almost every single post tribber convey this exact picture ,that they are escaping the Antichrist, and running from cave to cave. They see themselves right in the middle of the flying scorpions, and the hailstones of Fire ,and all the hell that's Unleashed on the Earth, but somehow they in their massive numbers ,millions of millions of people, jammed into one cave.
It is really far fetched, if you can ever get a hold of the actual picture that postribs paint for themselves. Meanwhile back in Bible land, the Bible says that the Antichrist overcomes the Saints. And it says the Saints overcome him by the blood of the Lamb ,and the word of their testimony, and they love not their lives unto death.
I don't know if you've ever read Fox's book of Martyrs. But that is the exact description of a martyr they're killed because of their testimony and of course they're Overcomers, because they died for their faith.
But all postribs leave every bit of that out, because in their testimony, they see themselves as surviving all the way to the end of the tribulation, and Jesus comes with horses, with no Riders on them ,and they jump on those horses while they're high up in the sky ,and then I guess the marriage supper is a ham sandwich in a saddle bag.

You have to come to the reality that postrib talking points and so so verses, can never VOID OUT other verses.
I am bringing verses to the table no postrib teacher will address.

 

[rebuilder 454]

No it is not.

There is NO Biblical proof of a Pre-tribulational Rapture.

Jesus Himself in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 showed that His coming to gather His faithful saints is AFTER... the tribulation, NOT prior to it.

The Pre-trib Rapture theory is a leaven doctrine from men, and was first preached in a Christian church by John Nelson Darby in 1830's Great Britain. For 1,800 years prior to that, the Christian Church held to a Post-tribulational coming of Christ Jesus.

lol
Both sides of the debate believe the saints are gathered postrib.
What we have here ,is postribs shown the rapture is not the second coming.

You actually pretend Jesus never used Lot and Noah as prejudgment gatherings.
Then you go postribber default mode with non biblical attacks hoping to steer the debate from the bible

Yep, you got leaven, non bible doctrine of man card in full display.
How ironic you yourself introduced it and played it.
Let us please, please see on postrib rapture verse.
Just one.
We already know all the postribber non bible talking points.
Psssst, it is all out of Saul Alinski's "Rules for Radicals"
Rule 3 is to attempt to DISCREDIT your opponent when you can not win on substance...ahem truth.

 

[rebuilder 454]

No it is not.

There is NO Biblical proof of a Pre-tribulational Rapture.

Jesus Himself in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 showed that His coming to gather His faithful saints is AFTER... the tribulation, NOT prior to it.

The Pre-trib Rapture theory is a leaven doctrine from men, and was first preached in a Christian church by John Nelson Darby in 1830's Great Britain. For 1,800 years prior to that, the Christian Church held to a Post-tribulational coming of Christ Jesus.

why lie?
How does that do anything??????
A tiny, tiny bit if research will lead you out of that silliness.
Some ancients did believed in a pretrib rapture .
Many of the ancients did.
Hello, the catholics burned pretribbers and their writings.
Sound familiar???? Kill the messenger.?????
But the postribber default mode invokes dead men to somehow promote the voiding of Jesus words????
Huh?????
Pretrib doctrine needs no such dead men.
In fact the MAIN BANNER of your doctrine is off a false invoking of dead men.
It would be one thing if you were right, but your entire foundation is off of a false dead man dynamic.
Wow. Just ridiculous.

 

[Wick Stick]

A Pre-trib rapture? Tell me you haven't understood the Bible without actually saying so.

 

[Scott Downey]

You have several obstacles in that leap that you made. Number one being Jesus marked the Rapture Before the Flood. Jesus marked the rapture before Sodom was destroyed. So in your Doctrine you actually have lot of removed after Sodom is destroyed. You also have Noah removed after the flood. But that's just the beginning because as I've pointed out, the setting for the rapture, is peacetime, free Commerce, and normal life.
All pretrib rapture verses have those non destroyed earth, non wartime settings.
You do realize that the setting you need for a post tribulation rapture is a torn up Earth and any believers remaining ,which is a very huge Grand Canyon leap, would be running from Hideout to hideout, with the Antichrist chasing right behind them.
I have heard almost every single post tribber convey this exact picture ,that they are escaping the Antichrist, and running from cave to cave. They see themselves right in the middle of the flying scorpions, and the hailstones of Fire ,and all the hell that's Unleashed on the Earth, but somehow they in their massive numbers ,millions of millions of people, jammed into one cave.
It is really far fetched, if you can ever get a hold of the actual picture that postribs paint for themselves. Meanwhile back in Bible land, the Bible says that the Antichrist overcomes the Saints. And it says the Saints overcome him by the blood of the Lamb ,and the word of their testimony, and they love not their lives unto death.
I don't know if you've ever read Fox's book of Martyrs. But that is the exact description of a martyr they're killed because of their testimony and of course they're Overcomers, because they died for their faith.
But all postribs leave every bit of that out, because in their testimony, they see themselves as surviving all the way to the end of the tribulation, and Jesus comes with horses, with no Riders on them ,and they jump on those horses while they're high up in the sky ,and then I guess the marriage supper is a ham sandwich in a saddle bag.

You have to come to the reality that postrib talking points and so so verses, can never VOID OUT other verses.
I am bringing verses to the table no postrib teacher will address.

Which verses exactly are you bringing out? I spoke of all of them.
None of them point to a pre trib rapture.

Mathew 24 is reciting a story in a story. It gives an overall picture of the end of the last days. It is not entirely in temporal order.
Christ gives an overview, then Christ goes back into the original telling with greater details of various points in the story.

Paul also goes into greater detail about this, mostly in Thessalonians, but it is all the same story, which is about the return of Christ and the surrounding events.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

A Pre-trib rapture? Tell me you haven't understood the Bible without actually saying so.

Let me guess... those that don't agree with your understanding of the rapture are not saved, right?

 

[Wick Stick]

Let me guess... those that don't agree with your understanding of the rapture are not saved, right? View attachment 42071

Not at all. No eschatological position is well-enough explained in the Bible for anyone to really get dogmatic about it.

That said... pre-trib theology gets ruled-out pretty quickly by anyone who reads the Old Testament with comprehension.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Not at all. No eschatological position is well-enough explained in the Bible for anyone to really get dogmatic about it.

That said... pre-trib theology gets ruled-out pretty quickly by anyone who reads the Old Testament with comprehension.

2nd Thess tells us the gathering of ourselves unto the Lord will not happen until there is a falling away and the son of perdition be revealed... and that is not pre-trib and it's not in the old testament.

 

[Wick Stick]

2nd Thess tells us the gathering of ourselves unto the Lord will not happen until there is a falling away and the son of perdition be revealed... and that is not pre-trib and it's not in the old testament.

All true. What the OT tells us repeatedly is that the Day of the Lord is not something to look forward to... the Lord comes to lay a smack down on the not-so-faithful.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

All true. What the OT tells us repeatedly is that the Day of the Lord is not something to look forward to... the Lord comes to lay a smack down on the not-so-faithful.

God is not going to pour out His wrath upon His own faithful

1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ

 

[Wick Stick]

God is not going to pour out His wrath upon His own faithful

1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ

I hadn't realized that you were part of the Thessalonian church. How'd you get internet in the 1st century?

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

I hadn't realized that you were part of the Thessalonian church. How'd you get internet in the 1st century?

The Lord provided me with a Book... that contains a couple of Letters He had written to them.

I'm surprised you too have not found copies of these Letters the Lord had written to them