Pretrib fallacies

[WPM]

WPM noted:
<resurrection on last day>
IMO:
It is certainly not the last day ever, since there are following days. Rather it is the last day of the seven trumpets, right before the bowl judgments.

Exactly! Premillennialist do not take the Bible literally. There's spiritualize away the meaning of words. They constantly butcher away the text in order to facilitate their error. Many testify that they are Premillennial because they take the Word of God literally, yet, when you put their theology to the test the opposite picture unfolds. Premillennialism spiritualizes the literal passages and literalizes the spiritual passages. That is because, if they were to take many passages in Scripture literal it would forbid Premillennialism. They are therefore forced to spiritualize it away. They literalize many figurative passages in the Old Testament because they lack support for their belief in the New Testament. Their hyper-literalistic approach to highly-figurative Revelation is a case-in-point. Their own hermeneutics actually forbid their beliefs. As Kim Riddlebarger says: “Their own hermeneutics will not bear the weight that is assigned to it … they cannot make good on their own stated hermeneutics”

The day that Jesus returns is an actual day. The Bible calls it “the last day” (singular). This is presented in direct contrast to “the last days” (plural). Basically, it is the final day of the last days. It is not a figurative indefinite day. After all, time concludes at the last trumpet. When you couple that with the sudden and climactic detail attached to the day it is easy to understand its literal meaning. But because this negates the Premil thesis, Premillennialists spiritual the day to be a prolonged period of time and they spiritualize away the wholesale destruction that destroys the current corrupt natural when Jesus comes.

Jesus identifies “the end” with His “coming” (including the passing away of the current heavens and earth) in Matthew 24:35-44. Paul does the same in 1 Corinthians 15:12-14, 21-24. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 supports this. It shows that “the coming of the Lord” ushers in “sudden” and total “destruction” of the wicked and “they shall not escape.” 2 Thessalonians 1:7-12, 2:1-7 corroborates the fact that “the coming of our Lord” is the concluding day of time. These are irrefutable. Peter reinforces this in 2 Peter 3:3-13 telling us that the heavens shall pass away / perish with a great noise, the elements shall be ‘loosed by being set on fire’, the earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly, and the works that are within the earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly at the coming of Jesus. Premillennialists deny this by spiritualizing this truth away. The coming of Christ is the end. That is if one takes Scripture literally.

 

[William Barton]

This earth will be regenerated when Jesus comes. We are glorified to inherit it.

The Bible says, "The lion will lie down with the lamb" during the millennium. However, the millennium climaxes with an attack on Jerusalem (Revelation 29:7-10).

I would think that total regeneration occurs after the millennium (Revelation 21:10, basically a do-over ).

The rapture is noted in the following verses, all 5 are mid-tribulation:
o. John 14:2-3
o. 1Corinthians 15:51-53
o. 1Thessalonians 4:15-17
o. Revelation 11:12
o. Revelation 14:16

IMO:
o. The discussion here asks, "Where in the Bible is the rapture noted?"
o. My response is that the above five verses all indicate pre-wrath rapture.
o. Wrath begins at the midpoint of the last seven years (Daniel 9:24-27).
o. "Pre-wrath" indicates 3.5 years before the millennium.
o. "Year" in this context = 360 days.

 

[William Barton]

Exactly! Premillennialist do not take the Bible literally. There's spiritualize away the meaning of words. They constantly butcher away the text in order to facilitate their error. Many testify that they are Premillennial because they take the Word of God literally, yet, when you put their theology to the test the opposite picture unfolds. Premillennialism spiritualizes the literal passages and literalizes the spiritual passages. That is because, if they were to take many passages in Scripture literal it would forbid Premillennialism. They are therefore forced to spiritualize it away. They literalize many figurative passages in the Old Testament because they lack support for their belief in the New Testament. Their hyper-literalistic approach to highly-figurative Revelation is a case-in-point. Their own hermeneutics actually forbid their beliefs. As Kim Riddlebarger says: “Their own hermeneutics will not bear the weight that is assigned to it … they cannot make good on their own stated hermeneutics”

The day that Jesus returns is an actual day. The Bible calls it “the last day” (singular). This is presented in direct contrast to “the last days” (plural). Basically, it is the final day of the last days. It is not a figurative indefinite day. After all, time concludes at the last trumpet. When you couple that with the sudden and climactic detail attached to the day it is easy to understand its literal meaning. But because this negates the Premil thesis, Premillennialists spiritual the day to be a prolonged period of time and they spiritualize away the wholesale destruction that destroys the current corrupt natural when Jesus comes.

Jesus identifies “the end” with His “coming” (including the passing away of the current heavens and earth) in Matthew 24:35-44. Paul does the same in 1 Corinthians 15:12-14, 21-24. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 supports this. It shows that “the coming of the Lord” ushers in “sudden” and total “destruction” of the wicked and “they shall not escape.” 2 Thessalonians 1:7-12, 2:1-7 corroborates the fact that “the coming of our Lord” is the concluding day of time. These are irrefutable. Peter reinforces this in 2 Peter 3:3-13 telling us that the heavens shall pass away / perish with a great noise, the elements shall be ‘loosed by being set on fire’, the earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly, and the works that are within the earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly at the coming of Jesus. Premillennialists deny this by spiritualizing this truth away. The coming of Christ is the end. That is if one takes Scripture literally.

IMO:
"Last day" in this context is the day on which the seventh (last) trumpet is blown (see 2Thessalonians 2:7 and 2:17).

This trumpet is blown on a particular day, and then the ensuing battle begins, and ends on that same day (Revelation 19:11:20). Hence we say "day of the Lord," referring to the calendar day as well as what happens on that day.

This is apocalyptic literature, using symbolic visions to code the message, so that only the wise will understand (Daniel 12:10).

One thing to look for is the rebuilding of the Jewish temple; Jesus will return after that (Malachi 3:1, "messenger" is John the Baptist). The Jews have been planning its construction for some time now.

BTW, "time shall be no more" (χρονος ουκετι εσται) IMO indicates "no further delay," as in "the waiting time is expired."

 

[WPM]

I would think the regeneration is after the millennium (Revelation 21,22).

It happens when we are glorified at the second coming. 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 declares, “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed [Gr. allasso], In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed [Gr. allasso]. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?”

This passage is describing the great supernatural change that occurs to God’s people when Jesus returns and takes them from a temporal fallen “flesh and blood” existence to an eternal glorified condition. Corruptibility and mortality are shown here to be interlinked. Incorruption and immortality are also shown to be enjoined. They describe the two converse states existing in two completely different dimensions.

Romans 8:16-23 teaches, “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption [Gr. phthartos or perishableness or decaying] into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.”

Both the creature and creation are waiting for “the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body” – or resurrection day. This is the day when both will be finally delivered from the aforementioned “bondage of corruption.”

Scripture makes it abundantly clear there will be an end to the current fallen state. There will be a day of complete deliverance.

At this juncture we must briefly enquire, what is this “bondage of corruption” spoken of in this passage that will one day be removed? It is the awful curse that came upon all mankind as a result of Adam’s fall in the Garden of Eden. This curse embodies every effect of the Fall that afflicts man, including sin, death, and every form of decay. It is the perishableness we suffer from in this life.

1 Peter 1:3-7: “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible [Gr. aphthrsia or imperishable or undecaying], and undefiled, and that fadeth not away [Gr. amarantos or perpetual], reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ.”

Like Romans 8:16-23, 1 Peter 1:3-7 is comparing the toil and trials of this present age to the glory that will be experienced when Jesus comes. We see that the corruption will be eternally lifted when Jesus comes and introduces a perfect arrangement. Believers are shown to receive an “inheritance incorruptible” at “the appearing of Jesus Christ” – which is here also described as “the last time.”

So, let us consider some glorious truths in this passage:

• The means by which the righteous will all physically rise is “the resurrection of Jesus Christ.”
• What they rise to is “an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away.”
• The location of that inheritance is “reserved in heaven”
• The time of this resurrection and reward will occur: “in the last time” which is here expressly identified with the “appearing of Jesus Christ.”

What we experience in this imperfect age is perishing and decaying, but when Jesus comes, we are ushered into a new age to receive an inheritance that will be perfect, non-decaying and eternal. Premillennialists try and move this to the end of their supposed future millennium. But this passage is just one of many forbids that.

In Luke 20:34-36, Jesus basically compares the temporal imperfect state of this present age/world to the glory of the age/world to come. Jesus says: “The children of this world [Gr. aion or age] marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world [Gr. aion or age], and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.”

This couldn’t be any clearer. This teaching of Christ reinforces the fact that not everyone is qualified to inherit the perfect world to come that arrives with the return of Christ. This narrative totally prohibits mortals and the wicked from populating the new earth. After all, that age is depicted as a reward for the redeemed. It is for those who belong to God. It is for those who know Him personally.

While marriage takes place in “this age/world,” Christ tells us that it will not take place in “that age/world,” which follows the resurrection. There is no marriage after the resurrection because Christ ushers in the eternal state which requires perfect spiritual bodies instead of corrupt physical bodies. The glorified saints will have perfected bodies, just like the elect angels. There will be no more separation, sin or death. Marriage is therefore terminated, because it represents division between human beings.

 

[WPM]

Jesus says in Matthew 24:35-41: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

He was speaking about how his words will not pass away.


Again... He was referring to how his words will not pass away.

You are really a problem here.
And may end up making this forum a place to be avoided if your ways are allowed to continue.

You butcher the text and refuse to quote the whole context in order to justify your error. That sums up Pretrib. The words of Jesus demolish what you have been taught.

Jesus says in Matthew 24:35-41: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.”

What is "that day" that Jesus refers to here in His teaching?

There is only one answer: the day He just spoke about – the day and hour when "heaven and earth shall pass away." Hello! This couldn’t be clearer. What is more, this "day and hour" when "heaven and earth shall pass away" is confirmed here by Jesus as "the coming of the Son of man." This straightforward teaching totally demolishes the Pretrib scenario.

Jesus then mentions two days in history to show us what His one final climactic return will look like. There is no suggestion of 2 raptures in Jesus teaching. That belongs to your Left Behind novels. That is invented nonsense. The word rapture is not even in the Bible - in the original or the English. Pretribs force it in there to support their error.

• How many wicked survived in Noah's day?
• How many wicked survived in Sodom?

After all, this is the actual subject that Christ is speaking of.

In both of these examples, all the elect were immediately and totally rescued and all the wicked were immediately and totally destroyed. So will it be when He appears.

 

[WPM]

The rapture is shown in Revelation 14:4-16 (Jesus descended to a cloud). The purpose is to remove believers from the judgements about to befall the land.

It is explained in 1Thessalonians 4:16-17:

"For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel's call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And *the dead in Christ will rise first.* Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up *together with them in the clouds* to meet the Lord *in the air;* and so shall we always be with the Lord."

There has always been tribulation. The rapture is prior to the *great* tribulation (Matthew 24:21).

It's in the Book!

Revelation 14:4-16 shows the rescue of God's elect and the destruction of the wicked. I don't know how you can get your prolonged tribulation period into that. Is one of several recaps in revelation, show on the climatic return of the Lord Jesus Christ. What we are looking at is different camera views of the one game.

This symbolic closing scene in the parable of the wheat and tares of time is closely mirrored in Revelation 14:14-20, saying, “And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man (Christ), having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel (angel 1) came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud (Christ) thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. And another angel (angel 2) came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel (angel 3) came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. And the angel (angel 3) thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.”

This narrative reveals a vivid account of the harvest that accompanies the second coming at the end of this age. We see “the Son of man” appearing upon “a white cloud” with “a golden crown” upon His head and “a sharp sickle” in His hand to reap that final crop “for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” As is seen in other Scripture, it is at the second coming that the wicked are finally cast “into the great winepress of the wrath of God.” The wicked will not survive this awful concluding day of destruction. We should state, the symbolism here should not be confused with Christ’s illustration of the vine in John 15. The earth is depicted as one overall symbolic ripe vine that is ready for harvesting. This is indeed “the harvest of the earth” of which the figurative sickle “thrust in” to in order to perfect the harvest.

John the Baptist testified of Christ and of the general judgment, in Matthew 3:12, saying, “he will throughly purge his floor, and (1) gather his wheat into the garner; but he will (2) katakausei up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

The word katakakeesetai used here in the original denotes complete destruction. It means to be ‘utterly burned up’ or ‘wholly consumed’. Christ uses similar language to that of John the Baptist in our previous passage, in Matthew 13:30, when speaking of the wheat and the tares, saying, “Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to katakausei (or) ‘utterly burn up’ or ‘wholly consume’ them: but gather the wheat into my barn.” And verse 40 continues, “As therefore the tares are gathered and katakausei (or) ‘utterly burned up’ or ‘wholly consumed’ in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this age.”

Some take John’s pronouncement to be slightly different to the wheat/tares parable in that it is speaking of the visible church (or those that profess). Whilst they still relate to the wicked, John simply uses slightly different symbolism.

 

[William Barton]

IMO:
o. The millennium is not the eternal state, rather believers who die during the millennium go to heaven until the end of the millennium. After that come new heavens and earth (Revelation 21:1), do over, try to get it right this time.

 

[WPM]

IMO:
o. The millennium is not the eternal state, rather believers who die during the millennium go to heaven until the end of the millennium. After that come new heavens and earth (Revelation 21:1), do over, try to get it right this time.

Then, who is on earth during your millennial period?

 

[GeneZ]

IMO:
o. The millennium is not the eternal state, rather believers who die during the millennium go to heaven until the end of the millennium. After that come new heavens and earth (Revelation 21:1), do over, try to get it right this time.

The Millennium will also be called a new earth.

It will have become transformed to not be like the earth we now know.

 

[William Barton]

Then, who is on earth during your millennial period. I see the conflict as confined to the Middle East.

IMO:
o. Every believer in the Middle East who survives the Middle-East scroll, trumpet, bowl judgments will remain on the earth when Jesus returns.

o. Jesus will resurrect all deceased believers *everywhere* at his return.

o At the end of the Millennial ("one thousand years") reign of Jesus will come the Great White Throne Judgment, when Jesus judges from his throne (bad news for living/deceased unbelievers).

o. The general resurrection/relocation of the dead/living in Christ to a *new heavens and earth* is after the Great White Throne judgment (Revelation chapters 21,22).

o Concerning end-times (apocalyptic) literature, we all ask ourselves:
"Am I wise? (Daniel 12:10).

 

[JimKnox]

Whatever angle you look up Pretrib, it is contradictory and self-defeating. Many of its main arguments are petty, ridiculous and nonsensical!

No prooftext

The bottom line is, Pretribbers cannot provide one single passage in the whole of God's Word that teaches a rapture of the Church, followed by a 7 years tribulation (or any extended tribulation period), followed by 3rd coming. That is because it does not exist. It is a man-made doctrine that belongs in the Pretrib novels.

2 future comings?

Pretrib relates parousia passages (meaning "coming" of the Lord) to both their supposed rapture and others to their 3rd coming. Pretribs have Christ "coming" at the rapture and they have Him "coming" 7 yrs later at a 3rd Advent. That is 2 comings! They may sugar-coat it in traditional Pretrib theological jargon or adorn it in religious double-speak but when all is said and done they apply parousia (or coming) passages to both of these events. When coupled with Christ’s 1st Coming that makes 3 comings of Christ in the Pretrib school of thought.

Absence of any mention of "the Church"?

Pretribbers argue that the absence of any mention of "the Church" between Revelation 4-19 proves that there is no Church on earth during their tribulation period. But heaven is mentioned in Revelation 4:1-2, 5:3, 13, 6:13-14, 8:1, 10, 13, 9:1, 10:1, 4, 5, 6, 8, 11:12 (X2), 13, 15, 19, 12:1, 3, 4, 7, 8, 10, 13:6, 13, 14:2, 6, 7, 13, 17, 15:1, 5, 16:11, 17, 21, 18:1, 4, 5, 20, 19:1, 11, 14, 17. This is also in the supposed Pretrib tribulation period. So, using Pretrib logic, the absence of any mention of "the Church" in any of the “heaven” passages proves it cannot be in heaven. So, it is not on earth, it is not in heaven, where is it?

The wrath of God on the righteous?

Pretribbers argue that 7 year trib (or whatever length trib) equates to the wrath of God. So, if your 7 year trib equates to the wrath of God then you have believers being subject to the wrath of God. There are obviously redeemed during the tribulation period, so, if the tribulation period is the wrath of God, you are saying that the wrath of God is upon the righteous.

Normality right up until Jesus comes?

If the day of the Lord 1 Thessalonians 5:3 relates to a third coming, as most Pretribbers argue, and they relate this to the event of Revelation 19, then why is this describing the wicked, who are experiencing the 7 years tribulation, as declaring “Peace and safety”? Surely this is a period of the wrath of God being poured out on all those left behind according to Pretrib theology?

Jesus said in Luke 17:24-34 they will 'eat, drink, and be given in marriage' up until the day that Jesus comes. This is telling us that life will continue as normal right up until Jesus' return. Christ's coming is going to catch the wicked unexpectedly. His arrival will surprise only those who are not prepared for it. The wrath of God is sudden and totally destructive. No one survives as this passage tells us.

Denying they believe in 3 comings of Jesus?

Pretribbers are very adamant in denying that their secret rapture is the second coming (parousia) of Christ, even though Scripture depicts it as such. This totally negates their whole thesis. They then invent a further coming to support their error - despite vehemently denying that they believe in a third coming of Christ. Their whole thesis is a fabricated lie.

Here is proof that the catching away ("rapture") is a coming (parousia) of Christ.

Jesus teaches in Matthew 24:35-41: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.”

Is this a rapture passage? Is this a coming of the Lord?

1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 says: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain ‘shall be caught up’ [Gr. harpazō] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Is this a rapture passage? Is this a coming of the Lord?

II Thessalonians 2:1-8 says, “Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming [Gr. parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our ‘gathering together’ [Gr. episunagoge– originating from episunago] unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling awa first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken ‘out of the way’. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming [Gr. parousia].”

Is this a rapture passage? Is this a coming of the Lord?

I count no less than ten fallacies in your post. Which ONE do you want me to tackle first?

 

[WPM]

I count no less than ten fallacies in your post. Which ONE do you want me to tackle first?

This will be interesting. List them all.

 

[WPM]

IMO:
o. Every believer in the Middle East who survives the Middle-East scroll, trumpet, bowl judgments will remain on the earth when Jesus returns.

o. Jesus will resurrect all deceased believers *everywhere* at his return.

o. The general resurrection/relocation of the dead/living in Christ to a *new heavens and earth* is after the Millennium (Revelation chapters 21,22).

What? Who taught you that? I see you present zero Scripture to support your claims - as is the Pretrib MO.

Every believer is caught up at Christ's return - all. All the wicked are destroyed. Hello! Any alternative to that is unscriptural.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3 confirms: “we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.”

It is very simple what this is saying to the unindoctrinated mind. This is the end. It is over. God's people are rescued. The wicked are destroyed. There are no survivors here. We are now into eternity.

This coming is not only sudden but noisy. Christ is not coming secretly with an apologetic whisper but publicly with a triumphant shout. He appears with “with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God.” This trumpet will sound and bring forth the elect from all nations. I Thessalonians 5:2-7 confirms that it isn’t just Christ’s Advent in glory that is sudden but also the destruction that accompanies.

Likening Christ’s return to “a thief in the night” capably serves to impress the surprising nature of His coming for the lost. It shows that the wicked are caught abruptly in their folly at the apocalypse. The “sudden destruction” is so impactful that none escape. That is explicit in the narrative. The wicked are totally and completely destroyed, allowing no room for the Pretrib theory of a subsequent 7yrs trib or some imaginary future millennium.

Jesus then concludes Matthew 24:35-41: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.”

What is "that day" that Jesus refers to here in His teaching? There is only one answer: the day He just spoke about – the day and hour when "heaven and earth shall pass away." Hello! This couldn’t be clearer.

After telling us that “heaven and earth shall pass away,” Jesus immediately tells us: “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” What day and hour? The one and only final future climactic coming (or parousia) of our Lord. Please see the Greek word is used twice here in this passage. This final day that is approaching is coming unexpectedly for the lost. His arrival will surprise only those who are not prepared for it. This fits in with the “thief in the night” scenario found elsewhere in Scripture. It would seem to confirm that the day that Christ returns is the day when the current corrupt natural order (both the creature and creation) is gloriously changed. The wicked and all corruption are destroyed when Jesus comes. The Lord here identifies the passing away of “heaven and earth” with “the coming of the Son of man.”

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 confirms the finality of that day and its clear relation to the end, saying, “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming [Gr. parousia]. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.”

This reading outlines in totally unambiguous language how the second coming of the Lord will be completely all-consummating in its nature. This final event expressly ushers in the end, and is the stage that Christ finally presents “up the kingdom to God” and “shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.” It is the concluding end for all mankind on this scene of time, now eternity and the general judgement. Notwithstanding, we cannot fail to note the stark contrast between God’s dealing with the kingdom of God and that of the kingdom of darkness at the end. One is finally presented “up,” the other is finally put “down.” All this coincides with the one final future coming (or ‘parousia’) of the Lord.

 

[WPM]

The Millennium will also be called a new earth.

It will have become transformed to not be like the earth we now know.

According to the book of Revelation the new heavens and new earth appears after the millennial period. Prove me wrong!

 

[WPM]

I count no less than ten fallacies in your post. Which ONE do you want me to tackle first?

All noise! Zero substance!

Pretrib and its twin sister Mid-trib is dead.

 

[WPM]

I count no less than ten fallacies in your post. Which ONE do you want me to tackle first?

Still waiting. Wild claims. Zero evidence presented as usual. This is the Pretrib MO.

 

[William Barton]

The Millennium will also be called a new earth.

It will have become transformed to not be like the earth we now know.

New earth is after the millennium (Revelation chapters 21, 22).

 

[WPM]

IMO:
o. Every believer in the Middle East who survives the Middle-East scroll, trumpet, bowl judgments will remain on the earth when Jesus returns.

o. Jesus will resurrect all deceased believers *everywhere* at his return.

o. The general resurrection/relocation of the dead/living in Christ to a *new heavens and earth* is after the Millennium (Revelation chapters 21,22).

What? Who taught you that? I see you present zero Scripture to support your claims - as is the Pretrib MO.

Every believer is caught up at Christ's return - all. All the wicked are destroyed. Hello! Any alternative to that is unscriptural.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3 confirms: “we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.”

It is very simple what this is saying to the unindoctrinated mind. This is the end. It is over. God's people are rescued. The wicked are destroyed. There are no survivors here. We are now into eternity.

This coming is not only sudden but noisy. Christ is not coming secretly with an apologetic whisper but publicly with a triumphant shout. He appears with “with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God.” This trumpet will sound and bring forth the elect from all nations. I Thessalonians 5:2-7 confirms that it isn’t just Christ’s Advent in glory that is sudden but also the destruction that accompanies.

Likening Christ’s return to “a thief in the night” capably serves to impress the surprising nature of His coming for the lost. It shows that the wicked are caught abruptly in their folly at the apocalypse. The “sudden destruction” is so impactful that none escape. That is explicit in the narrative. The wicked are totally and completely destroyed, allowing no room for the Pretrib theory of a subsequent 7yrs trib or some imaginary future millennium.

Jesus then concludes Matthew 24:35-41: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.”

What is "that day" that Jesus refers to here in His teaching? There is only one answer: the day He just spoke about – the day and hour when "heaven and earth shall pass away." Hello! This couldn’t be clearer.

After telling us that “heaven and earth shall pass away,” Jesus immediately tells us: “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” What day and hour? The one and only final future climactic coming (or parousia) of our Lord. Please see the Greek word is used twice here in this passage. This final day that is approaching is coming unexpectedly for the lost. His arrival will surprise only those who are not prepared for it. This fits in with the “thief in the night” scenario found elsewhere in Scripture. It would seem to confirm that the day that Christ returns is the day when the current corrupt natural order (both the creature and creation) is gloriously changed. The wicked and all corruption are destroyed when Jesus comes. The Lord here identifies the passing away of “heaven and earth” with “the coming of the Son of man.”

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 confirms the finality of that day and its clear relation to the end, saying, “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming [Gr. parousia]. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.”

This reading outlines in totally unambiguous language how the second coming of the Lord will be completely all-consummating in its nature. This final event expressly ushers in the end, and is the stage that Christ finally presents “up the kingdom to God” and “shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.” It is the concluding end for all mankind on this scene of time, now eternity and the general judgement. Notwithstanding, we cannot fail to note the stark contrast between God’s dealing with the kingdom of God and that of the kingdom of darkness at the end. One is finally presented “up,” the other is finally put “down.” All this coincides with the one final future coming (or ‘parousia’) of the Lord.

 

[GeneZ]

The Millennium will also be called a new earth.

It will have become transformed to not be like the earth we now know.

Aren't Christians now a new creation in Christ?
A new way of being alive, yet in a body that will die.

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. ​

The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 2 Corinthians 5:17​

Then after what we are now, to come will be the resurrection!
No more death!
No more having to contend with our body's fallen nature as we do now!

As we are now a new creation in Christ.
Is like the earth will be during the Millennium.
Transformed for a better planet to live on.
But not everlasting.
Only 1000 years.

At present we can have peace and understanding by the power of God's grace enabling us.
But we still have the fallen nature to contend with!
That is what the first new earth represents.

In contrast to how we are now?
The Resurrection will be the second new earth...
Will never die.
No sin.
And, without end.

The Millennium is only 1000 years.
People will live that long.

Then?
It will end, just like we now die.

Two different new heavens and new earth.

Think it over.
You are now a new creation in Christ. Right?

Later you will become another kind of new creation.
The Resurrection

 

[GeneZ]

New earth is after the millennium (Revelation chapters 21, 22).

That will be the final new earth.
Two different new earths will take place.
They each serve different purposes.

Read here, please... New Earth will be...