PRETRIB RAPTURE ANCIENT ROOTS

[WPM]

To those who look for Jesus he will appear a second time.

Hebrews 9
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

What about those that are not looking for Him? Does He appear? Kinda doesn't sound like it. Sounds like a secret rapture to those looking for Him.

Then what happens. The lie that fools the world. The aliens have come and taken everyone away. It will be on TV. Alien ships flying around.
In 1937 the Hindenburg class airship was 804 feet. That almost three football fields long. Could you imagine what we could build today? Don't think they aren't out there somewhere. Additionally, they have holograms that will make it look like UFO's are flying up your street.
Are you going to believe what you see?

When the rapture occurs, the world will be in Chaos. Very little food, very little order. And then..........."Order Out of Chaos" The new world order is at your door. What are you going to believe? I just want you to remember this as the Lord is really, really close. Your wish will be granted so don't believe what your eyes see.

As you can see: there is no tribulation period after this climatic coming. This is the end. There's no third coming here. That is your own invention. There is only one future coming of Jesus. The last time He appeared, He came as Savior. Now He's coming as judge. This is talking about His next appearance. This is talking about Him coming for His people. It is talking about the catching away. Those that are not looking and are not ready are going to be destroyed. Hello! Look at the multiple Scriptures above that you have avoided that show that.

 

[Davy]

I don't know much about what Darby taught, so I can't really speak to that.

You should take time to learn about it then, because prior to the 1800's the Christian Church had no such doctrine as pre-trib nor Darby's type of Dispensationalism. And since Darby, others furthered his doctrines into a movement called Hyper-Dispensationalism which expands on his theories to an even greater degree. And those theories are not written in God's Word, so now they have become false traditions in those kinds of Churches.

I believe that when Jesus returns we return with Him, as we will forever be with the Lord, that is, the Lord Jesus.

Apostle Paul actually gave more detail than that in 1 Thess.4.

He specifically showed that Jesus will bring the 'asleep' saints with Him when He descends to earth, and that they will be resurrected first (1 Thess.4:13-16). That part has nothing to do with the "caught up" idea. Only the 1 Thess.4:17 verse is about being "caught up" to Jesus at that same time, and is only for the saints still alive on earth.

Thus the actual 'rapture', if you want to call that Paul's "caught up" idea, is not about their being resurrected, but "changed" "at the twinkling of an eye" on that day to their "spiritual body", like Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15. Once those saints still alive on earth are changed, then they are "caught up" to Jesus and the resurrected saints He brings with Him from Heaven. This is what is actually written in 1 Thessalonians 4 by Apostle Paul.

I believe the prophecies of the larger promised land, and the new land grants to each tribe.

I believe that too, particularly Ezekiel 47 & 48.

I'm not seeing where Isaiah prophesied that Gentiles would have land grants in Israel, could you highlight that part for me?

Isaiah 54:1-17 KJV
1) Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD.
2) Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;
3) For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.

You make that above claim, yet you post the very Scripture that supports the saved Gentiles inhabiting the inheritances with Israel in the holy land in the future??? So you are going to allow men's false doctrine of a Pre-trib Rapture theory REMOVE that Truth from God's written Word, that part above in red? That's the only reason I see you would reject that simple Scripture above in red.

Does that mean you also... deny what Apostle Paul declared below in Galatians 3?

Gal 3:7
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
KJV


Gal 3:26-29
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
KJV

Even per Apostle Paul, when it comes to Christ's Church, we all INHERIT TOGETHER WITH ABRAHAM. And just what was it that GOD promised that Abraham would inherit?

Not to worry, when Lord Jesus returns, there will still be plenty of unsaved Gentiles to make up the Gentile nations outside the future lands of Israel. But make no mistake, as God has said through His prophet Isaiah, that Israel will be just ONE-THIRD in His future Kingdom, Assyria and Egypt will be the other two-thirds (Isaiah 19).

 

[Davy]

I wouldn't say, "Here on earth", but I also think there will be an undivided realm. The veil torn.

Not sure I understand what you mean by that.

God's Word already gives us examples of both the earthly dimension and the heavenly dimension operating together in the same time and space. It's when angels appeared on earth with the image of man. The natural dwelling place of the angels during this present world is in the heavenly dimension of Spirit. They are made up of spirit and not flesh, even though they can eat man's food and live upon this earth.

Not many brethren understand this yet, simply because of the confusion our flesh and this present world causes, and thus not understanding that the realm of Spirit was always first even before the foundation of this earth was laid by GOD in the beginning. This is why I often mention the Hebrews 11:3 verse which reveals that earthly matter did not create itself, but that the material universe was created by GOD from the dimension of Spirit. And per Isaiah 45:18 God said He created the earth to be lived upon, inhabited. And upon this earth is where He originally dwelt before Satan rebelled in coveting His Throne. When sin entered in, then God moved His abode to the Heavenly dimension of Spirit where it still is today, expecting until the time for His future new heavens and a new earth (Genesis 3:22-24; Revelation 21 & 22).

All I can tell you is, regardless of whatever someone thinks concerning the rapture, that doesn't mean everything else goes out the window.

Don't know what that means. I teach the "caught up" event of 1 Thess.4 as written per the KJV Bible. And I discover often that many on man's pre-trib rapture theory actually do not know what Apostle Paul actually stated there as written. So if there are folks throwing stuff out the window, it certainly are those who don't really know what Paul taught there in 1 Thess.4 as written.

I covered it for you, so it's your choice to go study it for yourself, or not, and just throw it out the window like the pre-trib rapture preachers teach. And I really mean they throw what Paul said there out the window, because they don't stick with what Paul actually taught there, but chop it up into bits and pieces, and try to make it say something else. One would think that brethren would be wise enough to realize that when men do that chopping up and don't stay with the actual written words, that that is just a work of deception.

But the thing is . . . when we demand all words in all verses be accounted for, I find that leaves us with pre-trib.

You are just saying that because you've probably been raised in a pre-trib church, or you are determined to 'yourself' (i.e., lie to yourself), that it is written, when it is not. It is very easy to lie to oneself if they want to believe a lie strongly enough. The false pre-trib theory of men is an easy doctrine to believe in, since it is designed to make one think Lord Jesus promised to save us from physical tribulation, when He promised no such thing. What Lord Jesus promised those who believe on Him is Salvation of their soul, not their flesh.

Matt 10:28
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him Which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
KJV

Mark 8:35-36
35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for My sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
KJV

 

[Davy]

Matthew 24:29-31 KJV
29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Joel 2:30-3:1 KJV
30) And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31) The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
32) And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
1) For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,

"Bring again the captivity" is idiom for bringing the captive back home.

Matthew 25:31-32 KJV
31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Joel 3:2 KJV
2) I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

"plead" here is to give legal address being their Judge.

Jesus comes in power and glory, and sends His angels to gather "the chosen". Later, the nations will be gathered and judged.

Jesus prophesied fully in keeping with the prophets before Him, the Spirit of Christ in them speaking.

Ezekiel 39:25-29 KJV
25) Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
26) After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
27) When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28) Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
29) Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Much love!

Still cannot leave the 'believing' Gentiles out of that gathering event, otherwise it would mean you reject everything written in The New Testament about the many-member body of Christ's Church.

Isa 49:22
22 Thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I will lift up Mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up My standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders.
KJV

Isa 66:19-20
19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard My fame, neither have seen My glory; and they shall declare My glory among the Gentiles.
20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to My holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.
KJV

Isa 43:6-7
6 I will say to the north, 'Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring My sons from far, and My daughters from the ends of the earth;
7 Even every one that is called by My name: for I have created him for My glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.'
KJV

Isa 56:6-8
6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve Him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be His servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of My covenant;
7 Even them will I bring to My holy mountain, and make them joyful in My house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon Mine altar; for Mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
8 The Lord GOD Which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, 'Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.
KJV

 

[rebuilder 454]

I did post REAL TRUTH from Lord Jesus Christ where HE showed a pre-trib rapture of His saints is FALSE, but YOU rejected what HE... said, and thus you must either repent and change, or suffer the consequences of your false belief.

So, what FAITH am I attacking, since you refuse to heed what Lord Jesus Himself said about His future coming to gather His saints AFTER THE TRIBULATION? Must I reference those Scriptures He said YET AGAIN?

Matthew 24:29-31
Mark 13:24-27

So YOU... are the one who needs to stop trying to play create credibility LIES, and get down to real disciplined Bible study instead of heeding the charlatans you follow instead.

Lol
You reference a verse that says after the tribulation angels gather saints in heaven

Pointing to a previous pretrib rapture 7 years earlier.
Too funny.
Your doctrine has a banner.
That banner is "we trust dead ancients of 2000 yrs ago that also erroneously theorized a postrib rapture doctrine."
Incredably Pointing to the source of your theory as MEN, NOT THE BIBLE.
That is your banner.
And you Confirm it by referencing a verse POINTING TO A PRETRIB RAPTURE!!!!

JUST PLAIN BIZARRE.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Is that what happens to your mind when you read God's Word, you only see a SINGLE VERSE? That makes sense why those on man's false pre-trib rapture theory cannot grasp what all Lord Jesus warned His faithful about. It's why those like myself just waste our time trying to explain it to you, and trying to get you to actually study your Bible instead of turning God's House into a social club.

Hmmm
Still no verses.
Oh well.

 

[rebuilder 454]

See, you don't even know about the Revelation 3:9 SINGLE VERSE that Jesus said to His elect Church of Philadelphia! Your Biblical illiteracy just shows all over the place.

9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Oh oh oh....you got a verse!!!!!!
Oh wait...total fail.

Oh well.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I've found that to be the case also. Those who believe Israel is replaced by the Church (amil, post-trib, etc.) will typically demand all teaching come from the NT. Sometimes they've even demanded I only base my doctrines on certain books, or in one case recently, to a portion of a single chapter.

Given that the same God inspired both, I think we should pay attention to all God has said.

Much love!

True.
A good example is Ruth.
Without that book the kinsman of Rev 5 is never understood.
....oh and the biggie....the covenant Jew brought back.
That is bizarre how a bible student can not place the Jews where God places them!!!.
Just Beyond bizarre.

 

[rebuilder 454]

What about JESUS???
Do you believe His every word???

Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”

41They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”

42Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

‘The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the Lord’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’?
43“Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you(Israel of the flesh) and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.
44And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”

45Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they perceived that He was speaking of them.
46But when they sought to lay hands on Him, they feared the multitudes, because they took Him for a prophet.

Do you SEE this???

Did JESUS err in removing the kingdom from those who hate God, even though they are the children of Abraham/Jews???

@rebuilder 454 @The Light @marks

We all know they failed
Nobody disputes it.

Now study " they will be bought back."
Study it.
It is HOSEA AND GOMER.
It is ROMANS 11.

This is yet another example of bible verses omissions of EVERY POSITION BUT PRETRIB RAPTURE ADHERENTS.

Because we are "WHOLE BIBLE " we OWN end times.
You are so busy wearing out single postribber words like "lie" , "satan" , "darby", and the myriad of postribber non smoking gun trivia, you miss the greatest event about to happen....THE RAPTURE.

You actually take yourself out.
Casting down the clear prophecy of Jesus telling us to get ready.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I wonder how many I'll informed postribbers will still lie about the rapture In the Bible.
This video cuts to the heart of their error.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Still waiting for a verse pointing to a postrib rapture.
Should be easy.
Hello????

 

[rebuilder 454]

I wonder how many I'll informed postribbers will still lie about the rapture In the Bible.
This video cuts to the heart of their error.

Well, the thing is, in the postrib rapture doctrine, their investment in a failed doctrine is too heavy.
They can not admit they are wrong because they invested so heavily in a failed postrib rapture position that is poorly thought out.

The omissions required to believe a postrib rapture doctrine is actually sickening.

The shame on them is heavy.

 

[David in NJ]

We all know they failed
Nobody disputes it.

Now study " they will be bought back."
Study it.
It is HOSEA AND GOMER.
It is ROMANS 11.

This is yet another example of bible verses omissions of EVERY POSITION BUT PRETRIB RAPTURE ADHERENTS.

Because we are "WHOLE BIBLE " we OWN end times.
You are so busy wearing out single postribber words like "lie" , "satan" , "darby", and the myriad of postribber non smoking gun trivia, you miss the greatest event about to happen....THE RAPTURE.

You actually take yourself out.
Casting down the clear prophecy of Jesus telling us to get ready.

OT Prophets , Matthew 23:37-39 and Romans make it CLEAR as DAY concerning the restoration of the now dead in sin nation of Israel.

If you were "WHOLE BIBLE" you would believe the words of the OT Prophets, CHRIST and the Apostles = Post Trib 2nd Coming

His 2nd Coming = Resurrection = rapture

 

[David in NJ]

Still waiting for a verse pointing to a postrib rapture.
Should be easy.
Hello????

Here are THREE = CLEAR as DAY

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[The Light]

Still waiting for a verse pointing to a postrib rapture.
Should be easy.
Hello????

There is none.

 

[rebuilder 454]

But, but, but, our Darby deal is debunked?????
Darby is our main pillar!!!!
Without Darby we are sunk!!!!!
We built an entire fake doctrine empire off of that one word!!!!
Darby Darby Darby...please help us!!!!!!

Plain ludicrous building those extra biblical doctrines.
They all fail.
Bible hounds with the Holy Ghost slay those fakers everytime.

 

[David in NJ]

There is none.

Here are THREE = CLEAR as DAY

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Here are THREE = CLEAR as DAY

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Yes.
The saints already in heaven are gathered by angels AFTER the trib.
Keep reading and find out a couple verses later ( you know...the verses you guys change and omit) it says the RAPTURE is pretrib, preflood.
See that?
AFTER the tribulation saints gathered in heaven.
BEFORE THE FLOOD/TRIB Noah ( us worthy ones looking for Jesus) are gathered into the ark.
Then the ark goes into the heavens.
Then we ( Noah) return BACK TO EARTH.
That "coming back" is your postrib coming.

Pretribulation gathering. Postrib return.

Read it all.
Bingo...comprehension follows.
Omit...like you guys champion, no comprehension.

Your job is to point out a POSTRIB RAPTURE VERSE.
You guys need comprehension.
Think " comprehension"

 

[The Light]

Apostle Paul actually gave more detail than that in 1 Thess.4.

He specifically showed that Jesus will bring the 'asleep' saints with Him when He descends to earth, and that they will be resurrected first (1 Thess.4:13-16). That part has nothing to do with the "caught up" idea. Only the 1 Thess.4:17 verse is about being "caught up" to Jesus at that same time, and is only for the saints still alive on earth.

Of course He brings the dead saints with Him. The dead in Christ rise first. The alive remain. When He returns for the alive that remain He will bring the dead in Christ that already have new bodies with Him.

The same thing happens when He comes for the second harvest. He gathers the elect from heaven which is the Church and brings them with Him.

Thus the actual 'rapture', if you want to call that Paul's "caught up" idea, is not about their being resurrected, but "changed" "at the twinkling of an eye" on that day to their "spiritual body", like Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15. Once those saints still alive on earth are changed, then they are "caught up" to Jesus and the resurrected saints He brings with Him from Heaven. This is what is actually written in 1 Thessalonians 4 by Apostle Paul.

1 Corinthians 15 is the second harvest. This harvest occurs before the wrath of God at the last trump which is blown on the Feast of Trumpets.. This is when the angels are sent to gather the elect from heaven and earth at the end of the age.

1 Thessalonians 4 is the first harvest, when the Lord Himself comes for the Chruch at the trump of God or voice of God. This rapture happens before the great tribulation.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Here are THREE = CLEAR as DAY

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

QUOTE
" this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come."
Yes it says the church/ Holy Spirit (restrainer) will be removed before the AC is in power.

So again, I need a postrib rapture verse.
That verses hurts your position.