PRETRIB RAPTURE ANCIENT ROOTS

[Spiritual Israelite]

Of course He brings the dead saints with Him. The dead in Christ rise first.

That means He will bring the souls of the dead in Christ with Him and their souls will unite with their resurrected bodies.

The alive remain. When He returns for the alive that remain He will bring the dead in Christ that already have new bodies with Him.

LOL. What? No, it clearly says that the resurrected dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain will be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air. You have them being caught up on two different occasions which is not at all what Paul wrote. You are blatantly twisting scripture to make it say what you want it to say.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Paul indicated that immediately after the dead in Christ are resurrected, "Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.". Clearly, the resurrected dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain are caught up together at the same time. Yet, you deny that, anyway, because it doesn't line up with your doctrine. You'd rather twist the text to fit your doctrine than accept what the text clearly indicates.

The same thing happens when He comes for the second harvest. He gathers the elect from heaven which is the Church and brings them with Him.


1 Corinthians 15 is the second harvest. This harvest occurs before the wrath of God at the last trump which is blown on the Feast of Trumpets.. This is when the angels are sent to gather the elect from heaven and earth at the end of the age.

1 Thessalonians 4 is the first harvest, when the Lord Himself comes for the Chruch at the trump of God or voice of God. This rapture happens before the great tribulation.

LOL. Why did Paul not mention the first harvest in 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 when giving the order of resurrections if there was a previous resurrection to the one of those who belong to Christ in verse 23? Did he somehow forget about that one when writing this passage...

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

Where did Paul mention the supposed "first harvest" there? Nowhere. You are just making things up. He would not have neglected to include all resurrections there.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Oh...silly me.
Noah was not gathered preflood.
He did not ascend into the heavens.

He was gathered after the flood and went high into the sky.

( I had some left over postribber goggles I put on. Then your deal made sense)
Lol

Noah going on to the ark and being kept safe does relate to the church being caught up when the rapture occurs, but you fail to acknowledge that what happened to unbelievers right after the ark door was closed and the flood came should be directly compared to what will happen to unbelievers after the rapture occurs. Just as the flood killed all unbeliever outside of the ark after the ark door was closed, all unbelievers will be killed after the rapture occurs. Why do you act as if some imaginary tribulation period occurs after the rapture when Jesus indicated no such thing at all when saying that what happened with the flood was similar to what will happen at the coming of the Son of Man (Matthew 24:35-39)?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Cmon postribbers.
We are getting desperate here for a single verse.
One???
Anybody??????
I thought it was a slam dunk.

Ok so maybe no verses.
How about one that infers a postrib rapture.
I bet there is a ton of them????
Ok....just one....I don't want you guys to implode in a vacuum.

Such foolishness. You can't be for real with your nonsense. You are a child. Scripture overwhelmingly supports post-trib, yet you still say all of this nonsense. You are completely delusional.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I refuted this video above. It is full of lies and nonsense!

And, naturally, he just ignored all of the evidence you provided to refute the nonsense. He just takes the guy's word for what he said without being like a Berean and checking for himself to see if what that liar said was true or not.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Rev chapter 14

Here is a call for the perseverance of the saints, who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

And I heard a voice from heaven telling me to write, “Blessed are the dead—those who die in the Lord from this moment on.”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labors, for their deeds will follow them.”

Pre-tribs try to say that passage isn't talking about those who are in the Church. It's not even possible to imagine anything more nonsensical than that. Who else but those who are in the Church are those "who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus" and are willing to die for Christ? If that doesn't describe those who are in the Church, then I don't know what does.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Actually, I don't reject any of it, regardless of your accusations.

In Christ is neither Jew nor Greek, but a new man.

So in the rapture, we don't talk about whether Jews or Gentiles will be raptured, the correct answer is, Christians will be raptured. Those who are 'in Christ', that is, baptized into Christ.

When Jesus comes, and gathers His own at that time, it happens in two parts, first the chosen, the Jews, who are regathered to their land according to a great many prophecies, the second, the Gentiles gathered to be judged, with some entering into the kingdom.

Much love!

I can't comprehend how you can correctly say that "in Christ is neither Jew nor Greek, but a new man" and that "Christians will be raptured", but then try to say that the Jews are "the chosen". Throughout the New Testament it describes Christians as being the chosen (elect). Why would scripture repeatedly say there is no difference between Jew and Gentile, but then somehow the Jews would be the chosen rather than all Christians regardless of whether they are Jew or Gentile? Christians, including all Jew and Gentile believers, are the chosen ones.

Romans 8:31 What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.

Do you believe you are among "those whom God has chosen"? I do.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What happens when you gauge a man's doctrine by his character? Does what he's learned make him a Spiritually fruitful man? Does he show his love for others? Or does he despise others (in the Biblical sense, these are both action words). Does he show his self control? Gentleness? Something to think about!

Something I've seen for many many years, the nicer, happier Christians seem to mostly be pre-trib. Interesting, isn't it?

You can't be serious with this. It's amazing how you somehow miss all of the posts from pre-tribs where they have called post-tribs and Amils all kinds of nasty things.

@WPM Do you still have that list of posts from pre-tribs showing all of the evil and nasty things they have said to us on this forum?

 

[marks]

You can't be serious with this. It's amazing how you somehow miss all of the posts from pre-tribs where they have called post-tribs and Amils all kinds of nasty things.

So let me see if I understand you. "I say all kinds of nasty things to others, but that's OK, because other people say all kinds of nasty things also."

I don't think that is sound reasoning.

Anyway, like I've already told you . . . I don't get into triangulating, that'a schoolgirl nonsense, and I believe is how you are intending to avoid responsibility for your actions.

Much love!

 

[marks]

@WPM Do you still have that list of posts from pre-tribs showing all of the evil and nasty things they have said to us on this forum?

Have you made a list of all the nasty things you've said to others?

Much love!

 

[Davy]

Lol
You reference a verse that says after the tribulation angels gather saints in heaven

Pointing to a previous pretrib rapture 7 years earlier.
Too funny.
Your doctrine has a banner.
That banner is "we trust dead ancients of 2000 yrs ago that also erroneously theorized a postrib rapture doctrine."
Incredably Pointing to the source of your theory as MEN, NOT THE BIBLE.
That is your banner.
And you Confirm it by referencing a verse POINTING TO A PRETRIB RAPTURE!!!!

JUST PLAIN BIZARRE.

Now you have really... gone off in crazy land, twisting my words like an evil spirit would.

 

[Davy]

Hmmm
Still no verses.
Oh well.

I well know that happens to some folks who won't keep God's Word as written; they have a difficult time focusing on the words on the page, so those like you can't even SEE those Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 verses by Lord Jesus Christ. That is another sign of being under the influence of another spirit.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Now you have really... gone off in crazy land, twisting my words like an evil spirit would.

Your exact words were addressed.
No spin no twisting.

The part about the postrib banner is well known fact.
Every postribber put the ancients as their number 2 foundation stone.
Number 1 is DARBY DARBY DARBY!!!!!

Run for the hills!!!!
Darby Booger man chasing them with a darby bible.

Just another bonus to cheer you guys up.
I know failing my challenge for a postrib rapture verse must be depressing.

 

[David in NJ]

What happens when you gauge a man's doctrine by his character? Does what he's learned make him a Spiritually fruitful man? Does he show his love for others? Or does he despise others (in the Biblical sense, these are both action words). Does he show his self control? Gentleness? Something to think about!

Something I've seen for many many years, the nicer, happier Christians seem to mostly be pre-trib. Interesting, isn't it?

Much love!

When you show the love of Christ by believing His words then you will know the Truth and the Truth will set you FREE

There is only One TRUTH = Matthew 4:4 , John 17:17 , Proverbs 30:5-6 , Revelation 22:16-21

and most important = 1 John 2:21 = "no lie is of the Truth"

If you want to love JESUS, you must love the Truth and reject the lies = same for me as for you as for everyone

 

[Davy]

Actually I spend my time learning the Bible. I didn't get my view from Darby. Believe it or not. I study the Bible. I've entertained other views, but they all end in various conflicts with Scripture.

I don't believe you. By that you are claiming that you 'naturally' came about the pre-trib rapture theory from actual Bible study instead of from some man, when I well KNOW that is false. You got the idea from a preacher familiar with what Darby and the Plymouth Brethren believed and taught in 1800's Great Britain, or from later authors in America like Cyrus Scofield.

The way I KNOW... you did not get the pre-trib rapture theory from God's Word is because Jesus declared the OPPOSITE of that theory when He showed the time of His future coming and gathering of His saints will be AFTER... the tribulation, not prior to it.

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

 

[Davy]

I'd more likely call it "heaven/earth", or something. Not that heaven comes to the earth. Rather that the division is removed.

Much love!

I only interpret as God's Word says, like the heavens being rolled up like a scroll...

Rev 6:14
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
KJV

Ps 102:25-26
25 Of old hast Thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of Thy hands.
26 They shall perish, but Thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt Thou change them, and they shall be changed:
KJV

Isa 34:4
4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
KJV

Heb 1:10-12
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of Thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but Thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt Thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but Thou art the same, and Thy years shall not fail.
KJV

2 Peter 3:10
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
KJV

 

[Davy]

When Jesus comes, and gathers His own at that time, it happens in two parts, first the chosen, the Jews, who are regathered to their land according to a great many prophecies, the second, the Gentiles gathered to be judged, with some entering into the kingdom.

You are still pushing that Darbyite theory about separation of believing Jews from believing Gentiles. Nowhere does Scripture reveal that kind of order.

Jesus comes for His Church first, on His way to the Mount of Olives at Jerusalem, per Zechariah 14, bringing ALL His saints with Him there. Those will be His saints that will reign with Him.

Then the gathering of the children of Israel with the Gentiles will happen, and the rebellious children of Israel will not... be gathered.

Isa 56:3-8
3 Neither let the foreigner, who has joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, "The LORD will surely separate me from his people"; neither let the eunuch say, "Behold, I am a dry tree."

4 For thus says the LORD, "To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths, and choose the things that please Me, and hold fast My covenant:

5 to them I will give in My house and within My walls a memorial and a name better than of sons and of daughters; I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

6 Also the foreigners who join themselves to the LORD, to minister to Him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be His servants, everyone who keeps the Sabbath from profaning it, and holds fast My covenant;

7 even them will I bring to My holy mountain, and make them joyful in My house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted on My altar; for My house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples."

8 The Lord GOD, Who gathers the outcasts of Israel, says, "Yet will I gather others to him, besides his own who are gathered."
NHEB

 

[Davy]

Two statements are made, but the fact that they appear side by side doesn't mean they are connected.

2) Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;
3) For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.

Which is the part that says the Gentiles will inhabit the cities?

Oh, I think you well understand what those above Isaiah 54 verses are saying. The reason why future Israel at Christ's coming will need to ENLARGE THE TENT is because of all the ADDITIONAL GENTILE BELIEVERS ON CHRIST being JOINED there with Israel in the holy land. That idea is the opposite of what you... have been suggesting, i.e., that the children of Israel only are gathered back to their own land, and no Gentiles with them. I already showed in a previous post Old Testament Scripture disproving what you said. That Isaiah 54:2-3 Scripture stands as yet another Biblical proof of Christ gathering believing Gentiles also with believing Israelites, back to the holy land. It's about Christ's Church, His many-member body, which seems you are quick to forget.

 

[Davy]

I think it has to do with how we read the Bible, and how willing we are to be wrong. I have no issue with being wrong. I love finding I've been mistaken about something, so long as I can verify that is true. It means I'm further along the past of understanding.

Because what I do is examine all aspects again, and make sure which is right. I don't mind changing, I love to, again, so long as I can verify. And the Bible is very good for that. We can trust it. And I've found God always leaves evidences in the text if you look.

....

I hope you didn't really think I'd believe all that. You still refuse to face up to Lord Jesus specifically showing His coming and gathering of His saints will be AFTER the tribulation, and you instead follow men's false doctrine of a false pre-trib rapture which says just the opposite of what Lord Jesus said. So you think I'm going to take what all you say seriously? No, I know what God's Word says as written, and even though I do not claim to know everything, I know what God through The Holy Spirit has revealed to me that is beyond all... doubt. And timing of Christ's coming and gathering of His Church is one thing that is beyond all... doubt.

So nice try, but maybe your DOUBTING of Bible Scripture will work on other folks here?

 

[David in NJ]

LOL. What a load of bias nonsense. You are totally skewed in everything you say. This steals the biscuit! It is the opposite to the truth. There is no one more vulgar and demeaning to posters who disagree with them on this forum than you Pretribbers. So, no one takes your feigned words serious. Here is edification according to you and your fellow Pretribbers:




























































































Here are those attackers:

@MA2444
@Taken
@rebuilder 454
@The Light

And guess what? Not one single apology from one of you! Shame on you Pretribbers!

WOW

 

[Davy]

We can all bandy that about, but to what end?

You haven't the first clue about me or my approach to the Bible, and to truth, but you feel free to drag me through the mud.

You have given PLENTY OF CLUES as to your deceptions right here on this forum, and not just to me. You have been shown what Lord Jesus showed when His coming to gather His saints will be, but you STILL reject... what He said in favor of following men's false pre-trib rapture theory which preaches just the opposite!

How much more evidence does one need to prove that you are deceived away from simple Bible Scripture, particularly CHRIST'S OWN WORDS? You can run... away from the following Bible Scripture by Lord Jesus Christ, but you cannot hide...

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV