PRETRIB RAPTURE ANCIENT ROOTS

[Douggg]

There is no destruction described in Revelation 14:14-17.

Jesus will appear in heaven with a sickle in hand in the sixth seal event of Revelation 6. Having a sickle in His hand will let the wicked of the world know His intentions.

And their reaction will be... that they are terrified.

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

[covenantee]

Yeah, that's the election. Read Romans 11

Still Jewish seed i.e. DNA.

 

[The Light]

Gather, but not change from corruptible to incorruptible.

Would Jesus send the angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth if they weren't changed? Here is the rapture of the 12 tribes across the earth which occurs at the last trump which is blown on the Feast of Trumpets.

1 Corinthians 15
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Jesus will appear in heaven with a sickle in hand in the sixth seal event of Revelation 6. Having a sickle in His hand will let the wicked of the world know His intentions.

And their reaction will be... that they are terrified.

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

You are dodging the point. There is no destruction or wrath described in Revelation 14:14-16. And it shows Him using His sickle, not just displaying it in His hand to warn people.

Revelation 14:14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16 So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.

What do you think it means for Jesus to thrust His sickle on the earth to reap the earth and what is the difference between that and what is described in Revelation 14:18-20?

 

[The Light]

Still Jewish "seed" DNA.

LOL. I almost made mention of DNA for laughs.

 

[covenantee]

LOL. I almost made mention of DNA for laughs.

Seed is for dispens who can't understand DNA.

 

[The Light]

No, Revelation 14:14-20, there is a sickle given to Jesus and a sickle given to an angel to symbolize the destruction the kings of the earth and their armies, gathered at Armageddon to make war on Jesus and His army of heaven - that will take place.

Jesus destroys the portion of those armies surrounding Jerusalem.

The angel destroys the rest of those armies in the other parts of Israel.

Please Doug. Jesus swings the sickle for the righteous and the angels gather them. They are going to heaven for marriage supper.

The second angel swings the sickle for the unrighteous. The unrighteous are cast into the wrath of God. This event occurs at the 6th seal.

 

[The Light]

Seed is for dispens who can't understand DNA.

Since dispensationalists aren't doing the actual rapture that has no effect. Do you think God needs DNA to figure out who is who?

How come every conversation with you turns into the tale of the DNA?

 

[covenantee]

Since dispensationalists aren't doing the actual rapture that has no effect. Do you think God needs DNA to figure out who is who?

How come every conversation with you turns into the tale of the DNA?

Can you understand seed?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Please Doug. Jesus swings the sickle for the righteous and the angels gather them. They are going to heaven for marriage supper.

Jesus descends from heaven only when the righteous are ready for the marriage supper, as shown in Revelation 19. You have Him gathering us even before that, which makes no sense. We will meet Him in the air, not in heaven. He is not going to descend from heaven only to turn around and go back there again.

The second angel swings the sickle for the unrighteous. The unrighteous are cast into the wrath of God. This event occurs at the 6th seal.

Notice that Revelation 14:18-20 talks about the treading of the winepress of the wrath of God. Just like Revelation 19:15. Those describe the same event when Jesus returns.

 

[The Light]

Can you understand seed?

Can you understand harvest?

 

[The Light]

Jesus descends from heaven only when the righteous are ready for the marriage supper, as shown in Revelation 19. You have Him gathering us even before that, which makes no sense. We will meet Him in the air, not in heaven. He is not going to descend from heaven only to turn around and go back there again.

The gathering takes place at the 6th seal. We are in heaven during the one year wrath of God at the marriage supper.

Notice that Revelation 14:18-20 talks about the treading of the winepress of the wrath of God. Just like Revelation 19:15. Those describe the same event when Jesus returns.

That's correct. Now notice that the specific event occurs at the end of the trumpets and vials.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The gathering takes place at the 6th seal. We are in heaven during the one year wrath of God at the marriage supper.

The marriage supper won't happen until Jesus returns. After He descends from heaven, He's not just turning around and going back there. That's ridiculous. We will meet Him in the air, not in heaven. If we were going to heaven with Him we would just meet Him there instead of "in the air".

That's correct. Now notice that the specific event occurs at the end of the trumpets and vials.

So, you agree that Revelation 14:18-20 and Revelation 19:11-21 is the same event, namely the second coming or return of Jesus Christ? Why wouldn't you agree that Revelation 14:14-16 is part of that same event as well since Revelation 14:14-20 all happens at the same time (generally speaking)?

 

[covenantee]

Can you understand harvest?

No harvest without seed.

 

[covenantee]

How come every conversation with you turns into the tale of the DNA?

Don't "Gentile" and "Jew" refer to DNA?

Or do dispens believe that they refer to something else?

What else?

How could your claimed "Gentile Church" exist without Gentile DNA?

Explain for us the process whereby the DNA of a Jew who is added to the Church is changed into Gentile DNA.

From Scripture.

 

[The Light]

The marriage supper won't happen until Jesus returns.

He returns at the 6th seal. He remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect.

After He descends from heaven,'

He remains in the clouds.

He's not just turning around and going back there.

All return to heaven for the marriage supper.

That's ridiculous. We will meet Him in the air, not in heaven.

We meet Him in the air and return to heaven during the wrath of God.

If we were going to heaven with Him we would just meet Him there instead of "in the air".

He's got to come and get us.

So, you agree that Revelation 14:18-20 and Revelation 19:11-21 is the same event, namely the second coming or return of Jesus Christ? Why wouldn't you agree that Revelation 14:14-16 is part of that same event as well since Revelation 14:14-20 all happens at the same time (generally speaking)?

No. I said it wrong.

I'll attempt to clarify.

The coming of Jesus in Revelation 14 is the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. It occurs immediately after the great tribulation and before the 7th seal wrath of God.

This is the gathering from heaven and earth. The Church is gathered from heaven and the 12 tribes across the earth are gathered from the earth. Seen here:

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

All return to heaven with Jesus and are the great multitude in Revelation 7. We return to heaven for the marriage supper. After the marriage supper, the armies of heaven return for Armageddon.

When we read Revelation 14:18-20 what it is saying is the unrighteous are cast into the winepress of the wrath of God. They are cast into the wrath of God which is the same event that is seen at the 6th seal.

Revelation 6
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

All the trumpets and vials of Gods wrath still have to happen before we get to Revelation 19 and Armageddon.

 

[WPM]

Really. Just pretend that the 7th seal wrath of God is 30 minutes of silence in heaven. If that nonsense works for you.....great.

The

Was my question too hard? You didn't answer it. Let's try again.

So, do you believe that the following occurs at the 6th seal? Yes or no?

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

If so, you think after the elect are gathered by the angels that it will then take a year for Christ to take "vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ"?


LOL. How can the time when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe not be when the rapture of the church occurs? Who do you think are "his saints" and "them that believe" if not the church?


No, you don't. And the scripture you do apply you apply wrongly at least 90% of the time.

They make it up as they go. They cannot answer simple questions.

 

[rebuilder 454]

No, Revelation 14:14-20, there is a sickle given to Jesus and a sickle given to an angel to symbolize the destruction the kings of the earth and their armies, gathered at Armageddon to make war on Jesus and His army of heaven - that will take place.

Jesus destroys the portion of those armies surrounding Jerusalem.

The angel destroys the rest of those armies in the other parts of Israel.

View attachment 65692

Sickle is a harvest tool.
Rev 14;14 is the covenant jew gathering.
(Gomer in Hosea.)
The 144k ETHNIC JEWS are in heaven in the First few verses of revelation fourteen.
main harvest always follows first fruits. If you read Romans chapter eleven, you will see that the Jewish covenant people are brought back in.
And we see that dynamic in revelation 14.
The tribulation is called Jacob trouble, or you could say Israel's trouble.
The pre tribulation rapture is the times of the Gintiles fulfilled.
Then Jacob's trouble.the 7 yr trib, Daniel's 70th week
Revelation, 14 verse 14 is a doctrine destroyer.

 

[Douggg]

Sickle is a harvest tool.
Rev 14;14 is the covenant jew gathering.
(Gomer in Hosea.)
The 144k ETHNIC JEWS are in heaven in the First few verses of revelation fourteen.
main harvest always follows first fruits. If you read Romans chapter eleven, you will see that the Jewish covenant people are brought back in.
And we see that dynamic in revelation 14.
The tribulation is called Jacob trouble, or you could say Israel's trouble.
The pre tribulation rapture is the times of the Gintiles fulfilled.
Then Jacob's trouble.the 7 yr trib, Daniel's 70th week
Revelation, 14 verse 14 is a doctrine destroyer.

Hi rebuilder 454,

Jesus has a sickle in verse 14.

An angel also has a sickle in verse 17.

Both Jesus and the angel reap. But two different locations.

When the angel reaps, blood flows the length of Israel in verse 20. But does not include the city of Jerusalem (the "without the city" in verse 20). Jesus will destroy those armies surrounding Jerusalem.

20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

the angel - the land of Israel
Jesus - the city of Jerusalem

 

[rebuilder 454]

Hi rebuilder 454,

Jesus has a sickle in verse 14.

An angel also has a sickle in verse 17.

Both Jesus and the angel reap. But two different locations.

When the angel reaps, blood flows the length of Israel in verse 20. But does not include the city of Jerusalem (the "without the city" in verse 20). Jesus will destroy those armies surrounding Jerusalem.

20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

the angel - the land of Israel
Jesus - the city of Jerusalem


View attachment 65728

My focus is vs14.
All that other reaping and destroying is also another time frame. Could be years after the vs 14 gathering of the Jews.