Prophecy and History

[ewq1938]

You are probably aware that the word Antichrist, means instead of, in place of,

It also can mean against. I say the AC is both against Christ and a counterfeit of Christ.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Not one rapture to be seen.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Greek

Means DEPARTURE, in spite f you choosing to heed English Translators over Paul. Its too simple to see the TIMING of the Church has nothing to do with the 70th week, it can only be Demonic Confusion.

So the Church of England was present in Jesus' day?

The Church of England CHANGED the KNOWN MEANING to Falling Away to take a SWIPE at their biter rival the RCC, the First 7 English translations had DEPARTURE not Falling away. The Latin word used was Discessio which also means DEPARTURE. You guys are just hardheaded.

 

[covenantee]

Means DEPARTURE, in spite f you choosing to heed English Translators over Paul. Its too simple to see the TIMING of the Church has nothing to do with the 70th week, it can only be Demonic Confusion.

The Church of England CHANGED the KNOWN MEANING to Falling Away to take a SWIPE at their biter rival the RCC, the First 7 English translations had DEPARTURE not Falling away. The Latin word used was Discessio which also means DEPARTURE. You guys are just hardheaded.

You neglected to include an essential part of my post.

646 [e]
apostasia
ἀποστασία
apostasy
N-NFS

You know, the Greek word that Paul used.

Are you afraid of that word?

 

[ewq1938]

The Church of England CHANGED the KNOWN MEANING to Falling Away

No, they didn't. apostasia has always meant a religious type of falling away or moral departure. It does not and can not mean a physical departure like a rapture. Pretribs have tried to change the word's definition but they can't because it has a fixed and unchangeable meaning.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

You neglected to include an essential part of my post.

Here let my 7 year old blog DESTROY your thesis man, you are a follower, not a leader of prophecy.

Is the Falling Away a False Teaching?

I have evolved with much study on this. I used to argue to all that there had to be this great Falling Away also. All because of this one passage. 2 Thessalonians 2:3. I do agree that the world gets far more evil towards the (now) end, as foretold in Romans chapter 1, and as Peter said, there will be scoffers in the last days etc. etc. But I do not think the True Church can "Fall Away", either you are of Christ/God or you are not, and will get left behind by the Bridegroom. Anyway, here is my understanding of 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

“Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction…” – 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NASB) This verse is used by many and they say it implies a "Falling Away" from the faith. But a guy named Tommy Ice has shed some exceptional light on this passage.

Mr. Ice has pointed out that the Greek noun, apostasia, is used only twice in the New Testament. The other occurrence is in Acts 21:21 where it states that an accusation was made against Paul that he was “teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake [apostasia] Moses.”

The word is used in verb form a total of 15 times in the New Testament, and only three of these have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and Hebrews 3:12). In other settings, the word is used for departing from iniquity (2 Timothy 2:19), departing from ungodly men (1 Timothy 6:5), departing from the temple (Luke 2:27), departing from the body (2 Corinthians 12:8), and departing from persons (Acts 12:10 and Luke 4:13).

This insight about the use and meaning of the word was certainly compelling, but the argument Mr. Ice presented that was most convicting was his revelation that the first seven English translations of the Bible rendered the noun, apostasia, as either “departure” or “departing.”

They were as follows:

1.The Wycliffe Bible (1384)

2.The Tyndale Bible (1526)

3. The Coverdale Bible (1535)

4. The Cranmer Bible (1539)

5. The Great Bible (1540)

6. The Beeches Bible (1576)

7. The Geneva Bible (1608)

Mr. Ice also noted that the Bible used by the Western world from 400 AD to the 1500s — Jerome’s Latin translation known as “The Vulgate” — rendered apostasia with the Latin word, discessio, which means “departure.” The first translation of the word to mean apostasy in an English Bible did not occur until 1611 when the King James Version was issued. So, why did the King James translators introduce a completely new rendering of the word as “falling away”? The best guess is that they were taking a stab at the false teachings of Catholicism.



One other point Mr. Ice made that I think is significant is that Paul used a definite article with the word apostasia. The significance of this is emphasized by Daniel Davey in a thesis he wrote for the Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary:

Since the Greek language does not need an article to make the noun definite, it becomes clear that with the usage of the article, reference is being made to something in particular. In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 the word apostasia is prefaced by the definite article which means that Paul is pointing to a particular type of departure clearly known to the Thessalonian church.

In light of this grammatical point, Tommy observed that “the use of the definite article would support the notion that Paul spoke of a clear, discernible notion.” And that notion he had already identified in verse 1 when he stated that he was writing about “our gathering together to Him [Jesus].” This interpretation also corresponds to the point that Paul makes in verses 6 and 7 where he states that the man of lawlessness will not come until what “restrains” him “is taken out of the way.”

And what it is that restrains evil in the world today? The Holy Spirit working through the Church. I think when the Church Departs, the Anti-Christ will be free to come to power.

I do not think this has anything to do with a Falling Away. It is the Church Departing before the Anti-Christ is brought forth. The King James Bible changed the known understanding that has been around for 1500 some odd years.
---------------------------------------------

You literally have no clue about Prophecy. Go find your calling, it is not Prophecy.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You are probably aware that the word Antichrist, means instead of, in place of, the true Christ. It's a counterfeit, as revealed particularly in Revelation 13. Note my post from a while back, Who is the Antichrist? Let's Put a Name on Him.

No, I don't think the word "Antichrist" has that meaning at all. I think the idea is to be opposed to Christ. That is how John used the word...

1 John 2.22 Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son.

1 John 5.Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

I suppose you could make an argument that the deception Antichrist is making is to place himself in front of Christ. Certainly, Jesus said some would pose as Christ. Jesus called them "False Christs."

But that is not what I see here. I see the Antichrist not just posing as Christ, but more, trying to deceive by turning people away from Christ. It is not just in being a substitute for Christ, but in trying to turn men away from Christ. As such, anybody who tries to turn men away from Christ, whether they claim to be Christ or not, is an Antichrist, simply because he is opposed to Christ.

Notice how John himself defined the "Antichrist." He did not require that one *substitute* for Christ. Rather, he said that it is a person whose spirit "does not acknowledge Jesus." That is *not* necessarily a substitute for Jesus. It can be, but according to John, it doesn't have to be.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

No, they didn't. apostasia has always meant a religious type of falling away or moral departure. It does not and can not mean a physical departure like a rapture. Pretribs have tried to change the word's definition but they can't because it has a fixed and unchangeable meaning.

Sigh.............you will find out soon. SMH, its like talking to walls

 

[Jay Ross]

No, it isn't. The GT has to start and end which is within the 6th trump, then the 7th has to sound, and then the first 6 vials of God's wrath have to pour before the army of the beast even travels to Armageddon.

Since when did Rev 11 happen? It's events have to happen before Armageddon does.

The first vial affects those with the MOB. I don't see the AC nor see him forcing worship of the image nor giving out the mark. The off by a country mile applies to you.

You are not the only one who is misguided in this thread. Your evolving timeline that you have established does not fit with God's unfolding timeline of prophetic events that He has said will happen.

For those who see the Revived Roman Empire as a possibility of being the fifth segment of the Daniel 2 statue prophecy, you have missed what Jeremiah prophesied concerning the Land of Babylon and those who have dominion over it.

Oh well, I tried to inject some rationality into the thread, and it seems that I have failed.

 

[ewq1938]

You are not the only one who is misguided in this thread. Your evolving timeline that you have established does not fit with God's unfolding timeline of prophetic events that He has said will happen.

For those who see the Revived Roman Empire as a possibility of being the fifth segment of the Daniel 2 statue prophecy, you have missed what Jeremiah prophesied concerning the Land of Babylon and those who have dominion over it.

Oh well, I tried to inject some rationality into the thread, and it seems that I have failed.

You do not understand when the battle of Armageddon takes place. It happens after Christ returns. The second coming is in action in Rev 19.

 

[ewq1938]

Sigh.............you will find out soon. SMH, its like talking to walls

But everything I said is true. apostasia does not mean what you and Pretrib claim. And as I often say, if anyone wants to be a part of apostasia they will be.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

But everything I said is true. apostasia does not mean what you and Pretrib claim. And as I often say, if anyone wants to be a part of apostasia they will be.

Nothing you ever say is factual based.

 

[ewq1938]

Nothing you ever say is factual based.

You have the gift of understanding prophecy.

 

[covenantee]

Here let my 7 year old blog DESTROY your thesis man, you are a follower, not a leader of prophecy.

Is the Falling Away a False Teaching?

I have evolved with much study on this. I used to argue to all that there had to be this great Falling Away also. All because of this one passage. 2 Thessalonians 2:3. I do agree that the world gets far more evil towards the (now) end, as foretold in Romans chapter 1, and as Peter said, there will be scoffers in the last days etc. etc. But I do not think the True Church can "Fall Away", either you are of Christ/God or you are not, and will get left behind by the Bridegroom. Anyway, here is my understanding of 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

“Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction…” – 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NASB) This verse is used by many and they say it implies a "Falling Away" from the faith. But a guy named Tommy Ice has shed some exceptional light on this passage.

Mr. Ice has pointed out that the Greek noun, apostasia, is used only twice in the New Testament. The other occurrence is in Acts 21:21 where it states that an accusation was made against Paul that he was “teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake [apostasia] Moses.”

The word is used in verb form a total of 15 times in the New Testament, and only three of these have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and Hebrews 3:12). In other settings, the word is used for departing from iniquity (2 Timothy 2:19), departing from ungodly men (1 Timothy 6:5), departing from the temple (Luke 2:27), departing from the body (2 Corinthians 12:8), and departing from persons (Acts 12:10 and Luke 4:13).

This insight about the use and meaning of the word was certainly compelling, but the argument Mr. Ice presented that was most convicting was his revelation that the first seven English translations of the Bible rendered the noun, apostasia, as either “departure” or “departing.”

They were as follows:

1.The Wycliffe Bible (1384)

2.The Tyndale Bible (1526)

3. The Coverdale Bible (1535)

4. The Cranmer Bible (1539)

5. The Great Bible (1540)

6. The Beeches Bible (1576)

7. The Geneva Bible (1608)

Mr. Ice also noted that the Bible used by the Western world from 400 AD to the 1500s — Jerome’s Latin translation known as “The Vulgate” — rendered apostasia with the Latin word, discessio, which means “departure.” The first translation of the word to mean apostasy in an English Bible did not occur until 1611 when the King James Version was issued. So, why did the King James translators introduce a completely new rendering of the word as “falling away”? The best guess is that they were taking a stab at the false teachings of Catholicism.



One other point Mr. Ice made that I think is significant is that Paul used a definite article with the word apostasia. The significance of this is emphasized by Daniel Davey in a thesis he wrote for the Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary:

Since the Greek language does not need an article to make the noun definite, it becomes clear that with the usage of the article, reference is being made to something in particular. In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 the word apostasia is prefaced by the definite article which means that Paul is pointing to a particular type of departure clearly known to the Thessalonian church.

In light of this grammatical point, Tommy observed that “the use of the definite article would support the notion that Paul spoke of a clear, discernible notion.” And that notion he had already identified in verse 1 when he stated that he was writing about “our gathering together to Him [Jesus].” This interpretation also corresponds to the point that Paul makes in verses 6 and 7 where he states that the man of lawlessness will not come until what “restrains” him “is taken out of the way.”

And what it is that restrains evil in the world today? The Holy Spirit working through the Church. I think when the Church Departs, the Anti-Christ will be free to come to power.

I do not think this has anything to do with a Falling Away. It is the Church Departing before the Anti-Christ is brought forth. The King James Bible changed the known understanding that has been around for 1500 some odd years.
---------------------------------------------

You literally have no clue about Prophecy. Go find your calling, it is not Prophecy.

Thanks for the guffaws.

Every one of the seven cited Bible translations originated during the Reformation era, when the Reformers and the true Christian Church were suffering under the antichrist of the apostate papacy.

Any idea of an hallucinatory "rapture" would have been laughed to scorn.

"Ice T." himself admits to the origin of the "apostasy as rapture" falsehood:

"J. S. Mabie is said to have presented the view that “the departure” refers to the rapture as early as 1859 during a prophecy conference in Los Angeles.[12] He later wrote his view in an article published in November 1895 in a periodical called Morning Star."

The “Departure” in 2 Thessalonians 2:3
Thomas Ice, Pre-Trib Research Center

Apostasy as rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 was unseen, unsaid, and unknown in true Christian orthodoxy prior to the 19th century. Ice confirms Mabie as being the first to present it.

It is nothing more than another modernist dispensational figment, fantasy, and fallacy.

For those afraid of:
646 [e]
apostasia
ἀποστασία
apostasy
N-NFS

Thoroughly debunked here.

 

[Jay Ross]

You do not understand when the battle of Armageddon takes place. It happens after Christ returns. The second coming is in action in Rev 19.

It is your opinion that I err. The truth of the matter is that your construct as to what happens during the Little While Period at the end of the Seventh Age is in error.

Satan, the Beast, the False Prophet and the Kings of the earth are gathered together and imprisoned in a pit for many days to await the time of their punishment. (Isaiah 24:21-22).

In Revelation 20:1-3 we are told this: -

Revelation 20:1-3: - Satan Bound 1,000 Years​

1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.​

In Revelation 17:7-8 we are told that the beast will rise up out of the Bottomless Pit after it has been unlocked.

Revelation 17:7-8: - 7 But the angel said to me, “Why did you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns. 8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.​

In Revelation 13:11-12 we are told that the beast with the little horns, i.e., The False Prophet, will rise up out of the ground.

Revelation 13:11-12: - 11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon. 12 And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.​

In Revelation 9:1-6 we are told that the Kings of the Earth, described as locusts in this passage, will rise up out of the Bottomless pit first after it is unlocked to torment the peoples of the earth who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads.
​

Revelation 9:1-6: - Fifth Trumpet: The Locusts from the Bottomless Pit​

9:1 Then the fifth angel sounded: And I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth. To him was given the key to the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the bottomless pit, and smoke arose out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace. So the sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit. 3 Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4 They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 And they were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for five months. Their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man. 6 In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will desire to die, and death will flee from them.​

Now in Revelation 19:17-21 we are told that the beast and the False Prophet were captured and dispatched into the Lake of Fire at the end of the little while period at the end of the seventh age after the beast and the false prophet are able to leave the Bottomless pit. In Revelation 16:12-16 we are told that after the three foul frog like spirits come out of the mouths of Satan, the Beast and the False Prophet and go out to perform signs and wonders for all of the world to see, that the Kings of the earth will gather

Revelation 19:17-21: - The Beast and His Armies Defeated​

​

17Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”​

​

19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.​

In Revelation 16:13-16 we are told this concerning when the King of the earth will be judged at Armageddon when they will be judged at the same time as the heavenly hosts are judged in heaven as foretold in Isaiah 24:21-22. The judgement of the kings of the earth will take place after the three unclean spirits that look like from perform their signs and wonders. This particular event I believe occur in the year 2001 AD.

Revelation 16:13-16: - 13 And I saw three unclean spirits that looked like frogs coming out of the mouths of the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet. 14These are demonic spirits that perform signs and go out to all the kings of the earth, to assemble them for battle on the great day of God the Almighty.​

​

15“Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who remains awake and clothed, so that he will not go naked and let his shame be exposed.”​

​

16And they assembled the kings in the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.​

​

Isaiah 24:21-22 21 In that day the LORD will punish​

the host of heaven above​

and the kings of the earth below.​

22They will be gathered together​

like prisoners in a pit.​

They will be confined to a dungeon​

and punished after many days.​

If you have followed the logical order of the above scripture passages, the error in your timeline will become obvious.

As for when Jesus returns permanently to the face of the earth, this event does not take place until the end of the Seventh Age.

Shalom.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Thanks for the guffaws.

Every one of the seven cited Bible translations originated during the Reformation era, when the Reformers and the true Christian Church were suffering under the antichrist of the apostate papacy.

Any idea of an hallucinatory "rapture" would have been laughed to scorn.

"Ice T." himself admits to the origin of the "apostasy as rapture" falsehood:

"J. S. Mabie is said to have presented the view that “the departure” refers to the rapture as early as 1859 during a prophecy conference in Los Angeles.[12] He later wrote his view in an article published in November 1895 in a periodical called Morning Star."

The “Departure” in 2 Thessalonians 2:3
Thomas Ice, Pre-Trib Research Center

Apostasy as rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 was unseen, unsaid, and unknown in true Christian orthodoxy prior to the 19th century. Ice confirms Mabie as being the first to present it.

It is nothing more than another modernist dispensational figment, fantasy, and fallacy.

For those afraid of:
646 [e]
apostasia
ἀποστασία
apostasy
N-NFS

Thoroughly debunked here.

I will just place you on ignore, a man who gets DESTRPYED then refuses to admit is not worth me wasting time chatting unto. Its like the twilight zone.

 

[covenantee]

I will just place you on ignore, a man who gets DESTRPYED then refuses to admit is not worth me wasting time chatting unto. Its like the twilight zone.

Ignore.

The last resort of a loser.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Ignore.

The last resort of a loser.

Any jackleg that starts off with GUFFAW while discussion the Holy Bible is the real loser dude. You earned you ignore.

 

[covenantee]

Any jackleg that starts off with GUFFAW while discussion the Holy Bible is the real loser dude. You earned you ignore.

Guffaws are for losers.

You've more than earned yours.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

LOL. The blind fighting with the blind and arrogant. Wow, this forum is full of childish people.
[Mat 7:6 LSB] 6 "Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

 

[covenantee]

LOL. The blind fighting with the blind and arrogant. Wow, this forum is full of childish people.
[Mat 7:6 LSB] 6 "Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

What would someone who doesn't know who The Most Holy Anointed One is, know about blind and arrogant?